Talk:Vlado Chernozemski/Archive 1

Please stand back for a moment ...
... until I figure out how to fix the cut-and-paste move. No editing the article or moving right now please. Fut.Perf. ☼ 17:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Serbian police?
There weren′t any Serbian police in the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. There were police of Banovinas. --77.46.250.95 (talk) 17:11, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Bulgarian revolutionary
Bulgarian origin and nationality.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jingiby (talk • contribs) 12:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant question on the Bulgarian state constitutional status
Please, stop pushing here the irrelevant topic on the Principality of Bulgaria's constitutional status. Here is such article called Principality of Bulgaria. You are free to edit it, including this one - Tarnovo Constitution. Thank you! Jingiby (talk) 19:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

POV
Someone put Macedonian reference and said that on the Macedonian reference writes that Cernozemski is Bg. Where did you see it man??--  MacedonianBoy Oui? 16:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Also in the reference that you hace put says this: --  MacedonianBoy Oui? 16:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)Така овој настан ќе остани вечно запаметен во сеќавањето на македонците како еден голем настан од борбата за својата слобода. This is your proof that he was BG?--  MacedonianBoy  Oui? 16:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * You mean proper? Explain a bit!?--  MacedonianBoy Oui? 17:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * He was born in XX but he is not BG! --  MacedonianBoy Oui? 17:41, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Nice rants, but keep on the subject. The guy was born outside of the region of Macedonia. How can he be "Macedonian" then? -- L a v e o l  T 17:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, he was not born outside the borders of the region of Macedonia, the region is not the same as the country, it extends into Bulgaria. Zhmr (talk) 13:27, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, you don't have a sufficient knowledge of the geography of this area. Jingiby (talk) 14:06, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

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Macedonian revolutionary?
Chernozemski was born in Bulgaria, in the village of Kamenitsa, now part of the town Velingrad. It is located at the western end of Chepino Valley, part of the Rhodope Mountains, in Thrace, not in Macedonia. His father, Dimitar Kerin, and his mother, Risa Baltadzieva, were both from the same village of Kamenitsa. Look at the sources above. He was part of the Mihailovists' faction of IMRO, as they were known, who identifyied themselves closely with Bulgaria. Mihailov was a Bulgarophile and ultra right-wing politician who had engaged IMRO in terrorist activity in Yugoslav and Greek Macedonia. Mihailov had become leader of IMRO in 1927 and initially under his leadership the organisation sought to incorporate Macedonia into Bulgaria. Chernozenski himself was Bulgarian nationalist. Chech here:[http://books.google.bg/books?id=ViAANnwIYgUC&pg=PA230&dq=chernozemski+bulgarian+nationalist&hl=bg&sa=X&ei=JFsGUtqxAYjQsgahi4DQCg&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=chernozemski%20bulgarian%20nationalist&f=false Violette Nozière: A Story of Murder in 1930s Paris, Sarah Maza, University of California Press, 2011, ISBN 0520948734,p. 230.] As born in Bulgaria and Thrace Vlado was Bulgarian and Thracian in national and respectiveliy in regional sense. As part of the IMRO he was Macedonian freedom fighter. On the other hand Macedonia had long been a target of Bulgarian irredentism and even in 1941 Most of the Slavophone inhabitants in all parts of divided Macedonia, perhaps a million and a half in all – had a Bulgarian national consciousness at the beginning of the Occupation; and most Bulgarians, whether they supported the Communists, VMRO, or the collaborating government, assumed that all Macedonia would fall to Bulgaria after the WWII. Tito was determined that this should not happen. Look at: "The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1-85065-492-1, p. 67. More, the question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1944 when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer and some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians. Check: The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65-66. Last but not least, after 1944 former Mihailovists were persecuted in SR Macedonia by the Belgrade-controlled authorities on accusations of collaboration with the Bulgarian occupation, Bulgarian nationalism, anti-communist and anti-Yugoslav activities, etc. The numbers of dead "traitors" and "collaborators" due to organized killings of Bulgarians during the Bloody Christmas and afterwards, however is unclear, but some sources put the number of the victims to 1,200. There are a lot of sources confirming the facts above. Keep in mind, that Macedonian historiography is higly controversial and according to neutral historians in your country the past was  systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians.( Yugoslavia: a concise history, Leslie Benson, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, ISBN 0333792416, p. 89) Provided by you source from Church in History Home Page - www.churchinhistory.org is neither reliable nor clear in the use of the term Macedonian. Jingiby (talk) 15:54, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

The source clearly indicated as Macedonians or Macedonian revolutionary, why delete the source ... there are no edit war, but the abuse of the rules of Wikipedia, in other words, Jingiby implement censorship which makes it impossible to hear other opinions ... or the views of other scholars and historians ....--Dalco26 (talk) 19:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but, as Jingiby indicated above, there is simply no way he could have been an ethnic Macedonian. He was born outside the region and joined the struggle as a Bulgarian. I do not know why Mr Barton, about whose scholarly activities I found nothing, writes this, but it is plainly untrue. Hence, I will remove the entire sentence. -- L a v e o l  T 09:08, 11 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Jingiby and Laveol are quite right, and I can see no room for argument here. Best, Apcbg (talk) 12:51, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

According to Stoyan Christowe he was born in Macedonia proper, in the Shtip region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chakalarov (talk • contribs) 13:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Considered a hero?
Why does it say he is considered a hero in the lead? He was an assassin and a terrorist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.79.225.131 (talk) 21:52, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Newsreel link, not working.
The newsreel link for the assassination of the Yugoslav king, plays only the audio. There's no video footage. GoodDay (talk) 23:29, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
 * I have just changed it. Jingiby (talk) 04:42, 17 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Still no video, only audio. I'm speaking of the newsreel earlier in the article. GoodDay (talk) 15:09, 17 April 2022 (UTC)

Old links not working often
Sorry, but the this info is old and some links make problems. Fixed links. A lot of new sources provided. I present a whole series of publications by Aleksandar Matkovski who is a professional historian in which Ivan Mihailov's VMRO and its activists, including Chernozemski, are described as fascist collaborators. Jingiby (talk) 12:32, 23 September 2022 (UTC)


 * @Jingiby, the sources you have added have several issues - the one by Žarko Trajanovski is not directly reffering to Chernozemski nor is it the official view of the Macedonian historiography (Trajanovski to my knowledge is a photographer and a journalist, not a historian).
 * I dispute the verifibility and reliability of the source of Litovski - to me the site looks like some obscure blog.
 * The articles by Litovski (not Matkovski, as you state in the comment above) in Sloboden Pečat actually don't call Chernozemski a fascist - the one time they do is in the last one, in reference to a statement made by Kimon Geogriev.
 * This also borders WP:OVERKILL.
 * Best regards. Kluche (talk) 13:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi, all Macedonian sources - both the deleted ones and the one that remained - claim that Chernozemski was a Bulgarian. I don't understand why this fact is constantly removed. I added it again and please don't delete it from this article. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 05:49, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jingiby, you pushed the narrative that the Macedonian historiography pervived him as a fascist. None of your sources backed that up, hence why I removed it twice.
 * Also, what's the point in having the entire sentence exactly? The world historiography regards him as a Bulgarian, Macedonian historiography regards him as a Bulgarian - case closed. There's no need for the sentence. Kluche (talk) 06:50, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I see no point in hiding the view of Macedonian historiography. It is almost always different from the consensus in world historiography and it is different from the Bulgarian one. Here again there are contradictions, especially since the historian Gjorgi Tanovski claims that he was Macedonian. In addition, the article is constantly vandalized with the claim that he was Macedonian. Moreover this Bulgarian is directly related to the history of Macedonia. Jingiby (talk) 07:55, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Here again there are contradictions, especially since the historian Gjorgi Tanovski claims that he was Macedonian.
 * So it's false to state that "the official historiography in North Macedonia regards him as a controversial Bulgarian.", since there are contradicting opinions on that matter?
 * Hence why I recommended the use of "figure" - covers all views i.e both the view that he was a Bulgarian, and the view that he was a Macedonian. Kluche (talk) 08:31, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It is good to describe the whole mess in Macedonian historiography. Jingiby (talk) 09:06, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
 * @Jingiby, this comment does not seem constructive nor does it answer my question - is 'controversial figure' acceptable, since calling him a 'controversial Bulgarian according to the historiography of North Macedonia' is a falsehood - as you yourself stated that there are contradicting opinions in Macedonian historiography about him. Also a reliable, non-biased source for the statement by Tanovski would be greatly appreciated. Best regards. Kluche (talk) 09:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The majority of historians in North Macedonia accept him as a controversial Bulgarian. Jingiby (talk) 09:14, 24 September 2022 (UTC)


 * @Jingiby A reliable non-biased source would be great, in order to cite it in the article. Also a source on the statement by Tanovski would be great. Kluche (talk) 09:31, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Revert
Hello Jingiby. Reverts shouldn't happen without a good rationale. The so-called "stable version" is left with errors. I think it is pretty clear from the source in what context "Macedonian" is used, i.e regional. Is that the only issue? Otherwise I don't get why everything was reverted. For the rest, I was simply following the source too. "Dissident" is also not present in the source. In fact, the source uses "many" as a quantity for the circles. StephenMacky1 (talk) 18:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi, on greater clarity regarding the author's Stephane Groueff view expressed on the Macedonian question in his book Crown of Thorns, see here Ninth chapter. The Macedonian drama and IMRO.: In Europe, there was no more cruel and tragic history than that of modern Macedonia. Inhabited by Bulgarians, Turks, Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, Serbs and other minorities, this unhappy land had known the cruel Ottoman yoke for five centuries, and in 1903 an unsuccessful popular uprising followed by fierce repression; the defeats of the Balkan War for its liberation and its division among the liberators, before it became a devastated battlefield in the First World War. Because of traditional hatred and rivalry between the Balkan nations, often encouraged by the Great Powers, and because of Great Bulgarian, Great Serbian and Great Greek chauvinistic ideas, leading sometimes to reckless decisions, these events caused enormous suffering to the population, which consisted mainly of Bulgarians. It is obvious that the author, who was from an old generation of Bulgarians, uses the term Macedonians in its regional meaning, i.e. Macedonian Bulgarians. It's like that throughout the whole book. Macedonian and Bulgarians are equal in ethnic sense for him. The author was a Bulgarian, and you know that even today this is the understanding of the many of the Bulgarians who think that the Macedonians are in fact Bulgarians. My opinion is different and you know it. Greetings. Jingiby (talk) 18:26, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * If that was the only issue, then "Macedonian Bulgarian" can be retained. Even though I think that even simply "Macedonian" won't confuse readers. The article, for the most part, is about the past anyway. StephenMacky1 (talk) 19:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * As for the term dissident, it was probably added because in Yugoslavia it was hardly possible to celebrate the assassination of the king. Otherwise, it was not clear from the previous version that the term Macedonian is actually Macedonian-Bulgarian. Please change the article so, to keep the context of the terms. Thanks. Jingiby (talk) 19:09, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * The term "dissident" was added by a sockmaster with no explanation. I don't see why we should use unsupported terms. Anyway, I have another suggestion. We can keep the context clear by having wikilinks for the circles. StephenMacky1 (talk) 20:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok. Thank you. Jingiby (talk) 05:18, 26 November 2023 (UTC)