Talk:Vocal range/Archive 2

Choral ranges are wrong
In the article it says "In much choral music the vocal ranges are often divided not into the three parts per sex as they are in operatic solo music but into only two parts per gender - Soprano, Alto, Tenor, Bass - or into four parts per sex - Soprano I, Soprano II, Alto I, Alto II, Tenor I, Tenor II, Bass I (or baritone), Bass II.", yet for no apparent reason, the section on ranges uses the opera ranges, which is inconsistent with the information given earlier in the article. Surely, the choral ranges should given in the article should follow this? 172.206.57.92 15:35, 21 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree - the Choral ranges are wrong - I have inserted the proposed change in addition to the :existing "Basic Choral Ranges". I invite comments before the replacement is finalized.
 * The Operatic Ranges seem wrong also - but I have not addressed this other table. Johnhenryfowler (talk) 15:49, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Proposed changes moved here: not appropriate to do that in the live article.


 * Proposed change (some obvious mistakes in the above)
 * Basic Choral Ranges:
 * Soprano C4- C6
 * Mezzo-Soprano: A4 - A6
 * Alto: E3 - E5
 * Tenor: C3 - A5
 * Baritone: A3 - G4
 * Bass: E2 - E4


 * no you misunderstood what I'm saying. The article clearly says Choral music often uses bass I, bass II, tenor I, tenor II, Alto I, Alto II, Soprano I, Soprano II, yet the vocal ranges shown are bass, baritone, tenor, alto, mezzo soprano and soprano. So where is the 'four parts per sex' as mentioned earlier? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.97.150 (talk) 13:35, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * --AndrewHowse (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Andrew reversed my edits without comment. The original table (see below) is back.


 * Basic Choral Ranges:


 * Soprano C4- A5
 * Mezzo-Soprano: A3 - F5
 * Alto: E3 - E5
 * Tenor: C3 - C5
 * Baritone: F2 - F4
 * Bass: C2 - C4


 * This gives the Soprano a range of six notes - c4,d4,e4,f4,g4,a5. Not much of a range for a Soprano! The Bass has C2 - C4 - I proposed (Bass: E2 - E4) as you have on the keyboard. Johnhenryfowler (talk) 17:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * No, C4 to A5 isn't six notes, it's six notes plus one octave. A4 comes after G4, not A5. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.11.97.150 (talk) 13:31, 10 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Johnhenryfowler, While it's true that I removed your alternative table from the article, that was because you added the new without removing the old, so there were two conflicting tables in the article. You didn't remove the old table and I didn't reinstate it. As I mentioned above, perhaps cryptically I admit, it's better Wiki-practice to discuss the change here and then make the change in the article. To be honest, I don't think anyone would be too upset if you just changed it; it's having 2 versions out there that looks bad.
 * I've also refactored this thread for readability but I haven't removed any content.
 * Finally you might want to look at e.g. soprano to make sure it's all consistent. That page shows c4-a5 for choral and c4-c6 for operatic, so you and others with good sources will no doubt reach consensus on all that. Again, apologies for any misunderstanding. --AndrewHowse (talk) 17:25, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

We need to include the vocal ranges as notated on a musical staff
It is extremely cumbersome reading highlighted notes on the piano, and frankly, I find it slightly offensive that every other instrument on wikipedia has its range notated on a musical staff, but not for voice. Do they assume we are musically illiterate? I'm not sure how to create Western notation in Wikipedia so I need some help with this... Anyone? - James

Soprano I & II, Alto I & II but no Tenor I & II??
I noticed that a few days ago someone changed the vocal ranges to include I's and II's of each classification, but did not add Tenor I & II. If anyone knows the ranges for them, could you add them? RIght now we have an incomplete list that needs fixing.

I think Teneor I is B2 - A4 or G4 and Tenor II is C3 - Bb4 but I realy dont know if thats correct

I've added Tenor I & II but I dont know if it's correct. If it's wrong, could someone plz change it??? Thks

Tenor I suppose to have higher vocal range than Tenor II. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jianamchen (talk • contribs).

Mariah Carey can sing A -1??
Someone has put in lowest vocal ntoe for females is an a -1 from mariah carey. There is no source cited to prove this and I find it hard to believe that mariah carey can go a whole octave lower than the lowest note on the piano(in fact A -1 is out of the range of human's hearing ability). I'm goin to remove it, although if anyone can find a believeable source of information for this or presents some way of proving it, feel free to put it back in.

Bernstein's Candide
An anonymous user removed a sentence re: the opera house version of Candide that I had inserted. I'm quite sure the optional low B is in there. Candide is one of my favorite books, so up at school I listened to the opera and read the score for a couple of days; I distinctly recall seeing the note. There may be confusion because the opera exists in several forms for several different types of performances. Alternatively, there some chance, I guess, that I'm just completely crazy. Being a bass who sings classical music, though, I don't easily forget such extreme requirements. If anyone wants, I'll dig up the score and post a scan of it. --George 16:25, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

250Hz to 3KHz Frequency range seems wrong.
Quote from the article... "In terms of frequency, human voices are roughly in the range of 250Hz to 3kHz for normal male and female voices together."

But the article lists basic ranges beginning at E2 (bass) and ending at A5 (soprano). That's 82 to 880 Hz -- about a 3.3 octave range, which seems about right.

Where does the 250Hz to 3kHz statement come from? My guess is that it's the range of frequencies carrying useful harmonic information in speech, in which case it is out of place (and misleading) in an article about the range of notes used in singing. The rest of the article is rightly worded in terms of fundamental frequencies, not harmonics.

Or am I missing something?


 * I have no idea; it's plainly wrong. I'm editing it. --George 19:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The 250Hz to 3kHz range is the bandwidth allowed by a telephone call to pass voice traffic.

Johnhenryfowler (talk) 16:54, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

physiology
can there be any information to the physiological basis to vocal range, i.e. what restrains the vocal range. 71.222.200.138 07:20, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

New Singer
I am an american bass-baritone who can go into whistle register is there anyway I can upload a file to show that I can somewhere hear? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.208.78.62 (talk) 00:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC).

Some points on choral voice ranges vs. operatic/solo voice types
If there are no objections, I'd like to remove 'soubrette' from the 'basic range' list, and remove the second list of ranges that follows it, replacing it with a link to voice type. Operalala 02:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Soubrette is not a voice part on the level of soprano and mezzo-soprano.
 * Technically vocal ranges refer to choral music, and comprise Soprano, Alto, Tenor and Bass.
 * The other voice parts are designations for operatic and solo classical voices.


 * Changes made, plus some others:
 * In opera, falsetto is actually used by Countertenors; the flageolet register is not used by sopranos.
 * Removed the section on Roles in Opera. Carmen is really the only mezzo role performed to any extent by sopranos. Rosina in Barber of Seville was actually rewritten during during the 19th century for coloratura soprano, but is now generally performed by mezzos as Rossini originally intended. Isolde is not commonly sung by mezzos, but Kundry is Parsifal is.
 * Straightened out the 3-4 paragraphs on highest and lowest classical repertory notes.
 * Operalala 19:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I think Callas had sung Rosina in Rossini's original mezzo version. Moreover, soprano Maria Ewing sang the mezzo version, and there are more sopranos that sing it today.
 * There are also other mezzo-roles sung by sopranos, such as Marina Mnishek (Boris Godunov) which was sung by Vishnevskaya and Amneris (Aida) by Dimitrova.
 * Isolde isn't exclusively sung by mezzos, but there are enough mezzos who tried to sing it, like Waltraud Meier.
 * The main point is that the division of singers into range-categories is artificial and not always correct and Callas and Cossotto are good examples of singers who can be easily classified and yet sang in different ranges (unlike Verrett who is arguably a mezzo or a soprano). AdamChapman 13:46, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Male sing Higher Key than Female???
my friend, is a pianist, he said male normally sing higher key(or Pitch) than female?? please clarify this for me with evidence. thanks
 * Generally speaking, no. Most males cannot sing in the head register whereas most women can, although a lot of men can sing in their falsetto register. I think it is easier for women to sing higher notes in head register than it is for men to sing the same notes in falsetto and there are quite a lot of female singers who can sing higher than C6, whereas there's very few men who can do that.

i agree that female have lower key than male. coz male have husky voice, so it sound like lower. but actually in general, male sing higher note or key than female. can someone really professional help to answer this?? (comment left by) 202.75.56.77

Agree too.. when u ask a female sing note by note beside a piano... they actually cant have that high key than male..


 * What are these nonsense? Men sing higher than female?! Look at the highest notes sung by a woman compared to men - it's about two and a half octaves higher, and it's not surprising. During puberty men's vocal folds more or less double their size, hence making their sound essentially an octave lower! When singing the same song women usually sing the part as written and men sing an octave lower (tenors read the "treble (soprano) clef" an octave lower). It sounds lower because it is lower, and whenever a note sounds lower than another there's a reason: either the note is lower, or with less overtones. When a singer sings all the overtones that he can reach are heard, now when a male and female sing exactly the same note the male's still sounds lower since he can't reach as high and consequently have less overtones. AdamChapman (talk) 21:00, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

male do not sing better than female. i am doing my science fair project and i did research and tested people tho show that females can sing better. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Love4521 (talk • contribs) 14:33, 4 January 2010

Vocal range in popular music
As there have been no ohjections (silence=assent on WP) I will be making this into a separate article. -- Kleinzach 05:44, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Note about classical singing
The absolute range of a singer is obviously from the lowest note to the highest he can pull out. Yet, in classical music there is great importance held to homogeneity of sound. Consequently, singers would do their best to keep singing in a particular resonance. Male singers (except countertenors) will sing basically in their "chest register" and bring this sound upwards as far as they can. Female singers and countertenors will sing especially in their "head register" and bring this sound downwards as low as they can. Male's head register is called "falsetto" (false sound, because this sound is related to women) and female's chest is called flagelio. These particular sounds are usually excluded from the classical vocal practice. At the edges there might be some mix of sounds (tenors can mix their highest notes with head resonance and women do some mix at the bottom), yet the range in classical music generally depends on one resonance. The most common example is women's lower range: all women can sing the low f to some extent, yet sopranos would sing it with pure chest while altos will sing it mixed or even with pure head voice. In more recent operas sopranos are required to use chest voice for dramatic impact, like the low g-flat in Salome, and for comic effect men are allowed to sing falsetto, like the Captain in Wozzeck. I know that I repeat information included in the article, but the matter of homogeneity as an aesthetic value in classical music should be mentioned. AdamChapman (talk) 19:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Chesnokov piece in the Male range description
I have changed the order of sentences to make the section on the bass voice read more clearly and added a note that Rachmaninov composed a compulsory low Bb for basses. From the original text I gathered that the Chesnokov piece is composed for chorale and soloist, though it was unclear to me. If I interpreted the information incorrectly (originally stated as, "Some choral works and songs also call for notes lower than the low D. For example, Pavel Chesnokov's "Do not deny me in my old age" features a basso profondo soloist, sometimes reaching as low as G1, depending on the arrangement.") will someone with knowledge of the piece please correct it. Voiceperson (talk) 16:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Accuracy of Vocal Frequency Range
I don't know too much about vocal range or vocal harmonics. My knowledge of sound waves is based off my education as an electrical engineer and my knowledge of electrical signals and waveforms. In the article it lists vocal frequency range for humans as being between 80 Hz and 1100 Hz. Based on my knowledge I would have to say that this is incorrect. If you take a recording of a conversation and run it through a band-pass filter with an upper limit of 1500 Hz it will sound like crap. If the band-pass filter is only removing frequencies above 1500 Hz and the human vocal range tops out (for most people) at 1100 Hz, then shouldn't there be no change at all from the original sound file? Chris01720 (talk) 00:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
 * To clarify my point, I uploaded two sound files to my webspace, the (original) and the (modified). The latter, modified, file is the original file with all frequencies above 1500 Hz removed.  If the human vocal range tops out around 1100 Hz and the modified file has all frequencies below 1500 Hz unchanged, then why do they sound different? Chris01720 (talk) 21:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The range they are talking about is the primary mode of vibration, not the harmonics. They sound diffrent because the latter has the higher order harmonics. A hiss from your lips, while being produced by a human, has supersonic ( beyond hearing ) secondary harmonics. Technically, the human voice tops out at a primary frequency of 1100Hz, but the overtones, and higher order harmonics give the voice is uniqueness.

What I find missing is notable performers with high ranges and frequencies, as in how can the art of singing only be expressed in terms of world records? Were is the vocal range of Minny Riperton, Grace Slick or Robert Halford and other 4 octive wonders? ( ManOWar - Eric Adams, Van Halen - David Lee Roth, Judas Priest - Rob Halford, Mark Slaughter, Geoff Tate, Chris Cornell, Michael Kiske, David Cloverdale, Michael Matijevic, Matt Barlow, David Glidenlow, Mansi Kursh, Oliver Hartmann, DC C Cooper, Jon Oliva, Jim Gillette, and Mark Boals ) 99.185.0.29 (talk) 01:11, 17 October 2008 (UTC)--

Voice type
Shouldn't this article and Voice type be merged? -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)