Talk:Vogue (Madonna song)

Chart success
I have removed the text stating the song 'kept several songs off the number one spot in May 1990'. Every number one song keeps several songs off the top spot by definition! Smurfmeister 09:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

POV
The music video section of this article is hardly neutral - it definitely needs some reworking. Triggy 00:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
It is assumed in this section that the timbre change in her voice was not intended. Often timbre changes are intended for emphasis. Can someone provide a reason why it would not be intended in this case? Laikalynx 01:18, 5 December 2006 (UTC) It is apparent from all audible factors (notice i also stated the recorded atmosphere), that the work was revisited. One can even hear a difference in the "bleed" from the headphones of the singer if one uses a hi fi system and good headphones. That is exactly how I first noticed it, and I have no special musical credentials whatsoever: the fact is readily apparent and creates its own impression. I also never said it wasn't intended, I merely pointed out that is a case of audible overdubbing and suggested a rewrite as a possible reason (Madonna disclosed on the MTV documentary that accompanied Ray of Light's release that she had rewritten a song during production: namely "Skin", and Mirwais would reveal that she rewrote material during production of American Life as well. Almost all artists do this, it's part of their creative process.  Furthermore, it is highly unlikely that it would NOT be intended. I did not intend any negative connotations whatsoever, merely that it's a rare case of noticable overdubbing, full stop--Tednor 14:32, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain this a little more thoroughly? I don't hear the changes you're talking about. I've listened to every version of the song I have on CD (I'm Breathless, Immaculate Collection and remixes from the Vogue Single) and can't hear any change in the vocal during the rap. I'm assuming that when you say the rap you're referring to the "Greta Garbo and Monroe..." section. -- Davecool, 09:43, 5 February 2007.

The alternating stanzas within the rap were recorded at different times and likely in different places. 04:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)Tednor

Late entry to this thread but, re this discussion, I think you guys are seriously overthinking it, the answers to these questions all appear to be "no" according to Shep Pettibone, who oughta know. He says all the vocals for the song were done very quickly, and although he doesn't explicitly say so, the clear implication is that Madge's vocals, including the rap and the coda (which were his ideas) were all cut in a single session, all done in a small studio in NYC and he is explicit that it was all tracked in order, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, and it was all first-takes, no later overdubs or punch-ins. See the new section I added yesterday, sourced from Shep' s 2015 Billboard interview. The whole thing was done amazingly cheaply - $5000! ... the backing track was written and recorded in two weeks, Madge came to the session with all the verses and chorus written, and the title, the vocals were all done in one hit, and after about a week more tweaking it was presented to Warners, so about three weeks flat from commission to completion. Sharp.

Dunks (talk) 14:08, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Madonna-Vogue.jpg
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BetacommandBot 21:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Request move
Vogue (Madonna song) → Vogue (song) The other two songs by this name aren't notable enough, did not have similar global succes.--79.112.52.120 (talk) 16:31, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

How can we verify this?
I'd like to know the way to verify that Madonna is performing the song the images provided claim she is...--Jetstreamer (talk) 19:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Composition
I think the list of samples should be reviewed.

In the current section it states:

''"Vogue" contains samples of some songs from the disco era. The bassline is from by MFSB.''

It cites the following as the source: http://www.villagevoice.com/2003-09-23/nyc-life/love-is-the-message

The source is an interview with Danny Tenaglia and states:

"What is your favorite record ever? "Love Is the Message" by MFSB. It's a mini Broadway play to me. It is the mother of all House music. It can be heard in Madonna's "Vogue" and countless other spin-offs."

No mention of a bassline. Just a DJ's opinion.

While I personally believe there are samples from the song, I don't believe it to be the bassline. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jizzaster (talk • contribs) 17:18, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Hard to unpick IMHO because both "Love is the Message" and "Ooh I Like It (Love Break)" by Salsoul Orchestra contain elements in common, and although I am yet to confirm the former, Shep Pettibone definitely did the remix of Love Break in 1983, which is the source of the string and horn-stab samples, and the vocal "Love Break" sample which features on the 12". They got sued over Love Break but won that, as is noted. Dunks (talk) 14:17, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Controversy
I am curious that there is no reference to VMG's 2012 suit against Madonna; her former record label, WB records; and "Vogue" producer Shep Pettibone, claiming that Madonna's "Vogue" track illegally samples a 1977 song, "Love Break." Pettibone also produced the 1977 track. Madonna won this lawsuit won this lawsuit in 2013, when the court ruled that "no reasonable audience would find the sampled portions of a 1976 composition significant, nor would they recognize the appropriation."

I'm curious if you feel that this information is interesting and relevant or rather, extraneous to the article since the lawsuit is over and Madonna was victorious? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Randy041 (talk • contribs) 16:49, 2 November 2014 (UTC)


 * It's relevant, yes. It's been added by myself and Tinamaria2014. Binksternet (talk) 18:41, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Organize
There are two pictures that are Madonna performing live that are in sections that do not correlate with the description. Some organizing of this article will greatly improve. All three pictures relating to the live performances should be put in that section to keep the article organized. Does that make sense, or should the pictures be removed and replaced with something more relevant to the topic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tinamaria2014 (talk • contribs) 04:10, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 01:16, 22 May 2016 (UTC)

Who were the musicians?
Does anybody know the names of the musicians who played on Vogue? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterbillionaire (talk • contribs) 05:28, 23 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Were there any? Or is this like one of electronic albums with a list of 50 "producers" and 2 musicians? Kellymoat (talk) 15:52, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Shep Pettibone's 2015 Billboard interview mentions having to pay "musicians" out of the $5000 budget he was given, but it's unclear to me whether he was talking about session contracting in general, or that specific project, and he doesn't mention any specific players. Still searching... Dunks (talk) 14:38, 13 July 2018 (UTC)


 * The musicians on the record were Fred McFarlane Keyboards, Bass and Programming, and Alan Friedman Drums and Programming...btw Fred McFarlane co-wrote Robin S.' "Show Me Love", and Alan Friedman was the programmer for C&C Music Factory. Swayzeiee (talk) 02:07, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 6 April 2018
Track listing (please add): Canadian 7-inch Promo
 * 1) "Vogue" (LP Version) – 4:50
 * 2) "Vogue" (Single Version) – 4:19 Just1kidding (talk) 22:20, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
 * ❌ Promo releases were not for sale in retail and should not be mentioned as they are just unnecessary promotional material. — IB [ Poke ] 06:18, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Vogue a feminist song? Not really
I have just checked the Slant article cited as the source for this claim and I respectfully dispute this point. I suggest that this is a misinterpretation, and It is clear to me that, in terms of feminist messaging, the author is specifically referring to "Express Yourself", not "Vogue", in that section:

"Vogue” falls in line with a startling arc of growth and self-consciousness of which “Express Yourself” was the warning shot, an unmistakably feminist missive that explicitly excluded straight males from its directive and then commanded they respond to its demands."

What say you, oh perfect masters?

Dunks (talk) 02:47, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Also, I would suggest that, lyrically, "Vogue" is a deliberately "non-gendered" song, and indeed that its only "engagement" with any discussion of race/gender is the bland, generic statement: "It doesnt matter if you're black or white, if you're a boy or a girl") and that it contains no obviously feminist lyrical content or messaging whatsover. In fact, I've recently read a number of comments that critique the song for its deliberate avoidance of any discussion of the fact that vogueing developed as a specifically gay male/trans and "ethnic" (black/Hispanic) performance art, a fact that was specifically referenced in McLaren's earlier "Deep in Vogue", which also included the authentic voices of major figures in ball culture, in the form of dialogue samples from 'Paris is Burning. Dunks (talk) 03:07, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Dunk, as explained before, this is your original research in the politest way possible. Start with finding reliable sources and facts else this is not a forum. You were correct about the feminist anthem piece and I have removed it. — IB [ Poke ] 05:25, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Indiabio, thanks for your attention to the feminist anthem point, I appreciate it. Yes, I get that the main article is not a place for original research, but since the critique I had in mind has already been mentioned in a previous Talk item, and given your obsessive interest in this page, I foolishly assumed you would be aware of it and saw no need to reiterate it. My bad. Cheers. Dunks (talk) 07:34, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * This article is far from being anything remotely good I should say and needs much, much work to bring it upto the standards of the articles that is seen in the WP:MADONNA wikiproject. We can of course remove any unsourced info completely and without any hesitation. — IB [ Poke ] 10:44, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

MTV Awards 1990 performance
Re the live performance section, there is IMO no basis, and no citation, to support the assertion that Madge bore "great resemblance to Marie Antoinette" ... she was wearing one of Glenn Close's Dangerous Liaisons frocks, true, but Glenn didn't portray Marie Antoinette in that film, and the Queen of Reinvention looks *nothing* like the former Queen of France. Can we remove that please?

Cheers, Dunks (talk) 13:54, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Its present in Carol Clerk's book in great detail. I have moved and amended the line. — IB [ Poke ] 14:15, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

It's still not a supportable assertion IMHO. One person claiming that she resembled MA doesn't mean that she actually did. She just wore a Rococco costume; check the portraits - she looks NOTHING like Marie at all. It's like saying she greatly resembled Babe Ruth because she wore a baseball cap! 😉

Dunks (talk) 14:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to add or remove content based on what you think. If a reputable book source from an author is describing her, then it is present. Again, you are going time and time into original research and your point of view. If after all these years in Wikipedia you don't know the difference between the two, I suggest you read the five pillars again. Thanks and adios. — I<b style="color: #FF033E;">B</b> [ <b style="font-family: Tempus Sans ITC; color: #1C1CF0;">Poke</b> ] 14:36, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Cedric, get off your high horse - what's the point of a Talk page when all you do is tell me to shut up? I have not altered that comment, so stop foamimg about a reasonable discussion on a Talk page being "original research". I am challenging that because it's garbage. At the least, the entry should properly be amended to state that *only* in the opinion of that author did Madge resemble Marie Antoinette at that event. Regardless of who said what where, suggesting or implying by inclusion such a stupid, vacuous comparison is valid is no different to me suggesting that my mum dressed in a sari greatly resembles Indira Ghandi. It's BOLLOCKS and it should be removed because it's meaningless, totally inaccurate and contributes no added value to the article, because its patent nonsense with no basis in fact. Plenty of authors of "reputable" books spout opinions that are totally wrong. That doesn't mean any such rubbish opinion should be inserted, unmediated, into Wikipedia.

The prior discussion Madge and her crew had was about the connection between voguing and Dangerous Liaisons, hence the costumes. They werent even going to do Vogue that night until they hit on that idea. NOTHING to do with Marie Antoinette whatsoever except the 18th century look.

The easily verifiable concrete facts are that Madonna looks *nothing* like Marie Antoinette, facially, or in any other way, and only "resembled" her in the sense that any 30-something white woman dressed in Rococco clobber, a powdered wig and white face paint is going to look vaguely similar to any other woman of roughly comparable appearance dressed in the same kind of getup. So what if the only name most dopey punters can associate with that look is Marie Antionette? It's a baseless, patently silly, laughably reductive, completely innaccurate JUST PLAIN WRONG comparison made by the hack writer of a fashion-centric Madonna hagiography. I don't call that a "reputable source". Camacho is a reputable source because HE WAS THERE:

"The idea [for the “Vogue” performance] came about during a game of charades. During the last days of the tour, we were in the South of France, in Nice, and one of the charades was Dangerous Liaisons. I was sitting next to her, and Madonna goes, “You know, that’s very ‘Vogue'."

https://allaboutmadonna.com/2015/08/making-of-madonnas-1990-mtv-vma-performance.php

Dunks (talk) 16:24, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
 * Dunks you need to stop with your WP:OR and mind your language and tone. Your garbage way of communication and personal attacks] is the reason why editors won't collaborate or listen to anything you have to say. You have time and time again gone off rambling about what you think which has no place in Wikipedia. Oh and pinging who had explained your habit of adding your POV and OR on your talk page. I clearly stated in the previous section that this article has many unsourced statements which can easily be removed and does not even need discussion. — I<b style="color: #FF033E;">B</b>  [ <b style="font-family: Tempus Sans ITC; color: #1C1CF0;">Poke</b> ] 16:51, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

Rolling Stone updated list
Vogue is number 3 in the new, updated list: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/best-music-videos-1194411/fatboy-slim-praise-you-2-1195889/ I think Vogue needs to be a better edited/written page. Iwish i could help at writing but my english aren't that great. I can search and find usefull links and accolades tho. Johnny Gnecco (talk) 00:43, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Sure, I agree with you. This article requires an attention and have at least a GA status. There is two advantages about this song as with other Madonna's Magnum opus works: both literature and references are unfathomable and perhaps Madonna has more active/semi-active users in all-Wikipedia versions than any other (female) artist. Sooner or later, an user will work with it. Personally, my strong areas are find foreign material, such as sales or chart positions; I could however find also useful links. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 01:13, 22 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I think the Reception paragraph should move in the Legacy section maybe? Also, in the link i shared above, David Fincher says how many hours Vogue needed to be directed, that's an info that could be added in the Music Video section too. Someone who has english as main language could add it. The page needs to be way more "richer". I've seen some of her least known songs being better written and have more information. I also think a page about her biopic should open too, it's confirmed that its happening . Johnny Gnecco (talk) 17:37, 22 February 2022 (UTC)

Appropriation or Appreciation
The ballroom scene of “Vogue,” which has predominantly black and Latinx LGBTQ+ members, is monumental in creating a sense of community among those those who were marginalized in the dominant sphere. Although some critics recognize the ballroom culture and its diversity when discussing Madonna’s hit “Vogue”, there is little additional discussion on whether her song should be seen as appreciation of ballroom culture or appropriation of it. Using the art style of individuals within the ballroom scene and profiting from a movement spearheaded by marginalized peoples themselves is very problematic. While Madonna found stardom and benefitted socially and economically, queer performers were left unrecognized and under-resourced. Considering the lack of recognition of the black-queer individuals by mainstream culture this cultural appropriation, Madonna’s “Vogue” can be considered both an example of white individuals taking from Black performers, and a colonization of ballroom culture.

Works Cited

Bailey, Marlon M. Butch Queens Up in Pumps: Gender, Performance, and Ballroom Culture in Detroit. Ann Arbor, MI: University of Michigan Press, 2013.

“How Today's Ballroom Leaders Are Fighting a History of Appropriation.” VICE, July 22, 2019. https://www.vice.com/en/article/a3xmje/how-todays-ballroom-leaders-are-fighting-a-history-of-appropriation.

Saveriano, Marco. “The Complicated Case of Madonna's 'Vogue'.” FanSided. FanSided, March 27, 2020. https://fansided.com/2020/03/27/madonna-vogue-cultural-appropriation-question/. MarvelousDrew (talk) 02:31, 27 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The charges about "appropriation" are actually documented in its main article, Vogue (dance) where perhaps it fits better as the historical context and criticisms (usually understood from) black gay community and have WP:UNDUE as it is largely perceived as well, from mainstream that she brought it to the awarness. It is also mentioned in the Madonna as a gay icon article. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 03:39, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry but how queer performers were left unrecognized? They were dancers on her tour, they were giving interviews like celebs, they were in her doc, some of them even thanked her for boosting their career, and she still mentions them from time to time even to this days. How she left them unrecognized??? Johnny Gnecco (talk) 13:02, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

The Initial Recording Studio
Vogue was initially recorded at Homeboy Recording, situated at 410 West 53rd St. This studio served as the recording space as it was Fred McFarlane's personal studio, housing all the necessary equipment. Given McFarlane's frequent collaboration with Mr. Pettibone, they chose this location for its efficiency, eliminating the need for cartage to transport Mr. McFarlne’s equipment. The recording setup featured a Harrison M3R mixing console and an Ampex MM1200 24" tape machine, using Ampex 456 +6/185 tape. Swayzeiee (talk) 09:02, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

The Musicians
I'm trying to understand why you would add the Alan's information but not Fred's. It's curious to me. I could literally give you the rundown of all people present. Also Alan used Voyetra Pro software on a PC. Fred used MOTU's Digital Performer on a Macintosh SE Swayzeiee (talk) 09:17, 26 November 2023 (UTC)