Talk:Voiceless bilabial approximant

Spanish
According to this source, the Spanish devoiced spirants [ɸ, θ, x] are described as fricatives not approximants. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 02:51, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * It's probably just a case of sources disagreeing with each other. The source that I used (Wetzels & Mascaró (2001:224), cited in the article) says the following: "Standard European Spanish has a rule that devoices and laxes voiced obstruents prepausally (Navarro Tomás 1961): se[ð̥] ‘thirst’, but se[ðo]rrible ‘terrible thirst’." It's quite clear that they're talking about approximant realizations. Peter238 (talk) 09:42, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your explanation. It seems they're variable sounds. The source I used doesn't mention Standard European Spanish either, but a form of colloquial North-Central Peninsular, and describe them only as fricatives and "spirants", are there more sources that state final devoicing as a Standard feature in Castilian? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 18:23, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Neither source suggests variability, it's just that your source calls these sounds "fricatives", whereas my source describes "devoiced lax" (=voiceless approximant) realizations of prepausal voiced obstruents (and talks about a different dialect than your source!). I had to revert some of your edits by the way; we have to accurately represent what the source says. Peter238 (talk) 21:02, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Ok, if you suggest this is standard then we could/should use this in our transcriptions. Is final devoicing also standard in the Andean region? Shall we separate Spanish dialects according to this feature? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 23:16, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * - I'm not "suggesting it is standard", I'm saying that there exist a source that says that (which you already know). We're not talking about my opinion here.
 * - I know nothing about Andean Spanish (unless reading this counts as knowledge - most of it is unsourced), especially about the minor details such as prepausal devoicing.
 * - I don't think we have to include it in our transcriptions, especially given the fact that the only source we're aware of that talks about standard accents doesn't talk about varieties other than Standard European.
 * - Separate what and where? Help:IPA for Spanish? I'd rather not comment on that - I don't think I'm knowledgeable enough. Peter238 (talk) 23:42, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * That's right.. Does this Standard have more prestige than Castilian? If it doesn't, I think the standard label should be reviewed as Castilian is the main standard
 * I think most Andeans do not lenite final obstruents, perhaps that's standard in their region.
 * Sorry I meant divide Help:IPA for Spanish — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 01:16, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * - All I know is that the source uses the term "Standard European Spanish", which is probably the mainstream standard used by newscasters and what have you. But that's just my guess.
 * - Ok, but we're talking about European Spanish, right?
 * - Feel free to propose that on Help talk:IPA for Spanish. Unfortunately, as I said, I won't be able to help you with this issue - I know too little about other varieties of Spanish. Peter238 (talk) 01:37, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Traditional Castilian Spanish which is/was regarded as the most prestigious Spanish dialect is not the same than "Standard European/Peninsular Spanish", the last one merges [ʎ] with [ʝ] more widely. That's why I think using Standard here could be confusing.
 * Thanks I already did :) if you want to give your opinion you're welcome to participate, you don't need to know a lot about Spanish, you obviously as well as others know more than me about phonetics and I still participate— Jɑuмe (dis-me) 02:14, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

- What you're speaking about may be merely a posh/non-posh distinction. I said "mainstream standard", which isn't really posh (think about Estuary English for example). - Do you have a source that says that the Standard European variety has a mandatory yeísmo? For all I know, it is optional, and speakers with yeísmo (I guess) can't hear the distinction anyway. - You might want to make it more explicit that you'd like to see separate cells for European and Latin American Spanish. I didn't get that from your messages. Peter238 (talk) 02:36, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I think I haven't explained myself properly.. I don't see Standard Traditional Spanish (based on Castilian Spanish, i.e. not Andalusian or Murcian) and (Modern) Standard Peninsular Spanish as the same, and i think the term Standard is confusing


 * Dialects that distinguish /ʝ/ from /ʎ/ are not essentially posh anymore, just traditional...


 * It's a general semi-mandatory yeísmo, and no sorry I don't have a source, have you heard /ʎ/ frequently on the news and TV shows in the last decades? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 03:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If they're not the same, what are the differences?


 * I hardly watch Spanish TV. I have an A2 understanding of the language, can hardly write it and can't really speak it. Peter238 (talk) 04:04, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * -The expansion of yeísmo, final devoicing and certain centralisation/reduction of unstressed vowels
 * -how about in singing, how often do you hear /ʎ/? — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 05:02, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * - Thanks.
 * - My guess is "never", or at best "so rarely that I don't even notice", but most bands/signers I've ever listened to are from countries that don't have that many (or hardly any) speakers with, e.g. Mexico. I think I'm not used to hearing this distinction. Peter238 (talk) 05:16, 19 November 2015 (UTC)


 * No prob


 * And don't bother listening to European Spanish songs you won't hear /ʎ/ either – it's a moribund phoneme... — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 08:12, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Merge with voiceless bilabial fricative
JaumeR, what is your argument for merging this article with voiceless bilabial fricative? We have both Spanish and Italian here, not just Spanish (both are sourced anyway). Peter238 (talk) 21:02, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * My main point now is we dont have an article for a voiced bilabial/dental approximant, so we don't need these ones (unless you split the others). The second reason is they're described also as fricatives, and to my knowledge they seem variable sounds. — Jɑuмe (dis-me) 23:41, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If nobody disagrees with you within the next couple of days (say, until the end of this week), go ahead and merge these articles per WP:BOLD. Peter238 (talk) 23:45, 18 November 2015 (UTC)