Talk:Voisava Kastrioti/Archive 1

POV
Per discussion here. -- Tadijaspeaks 14:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)


 * There was a RfC and those two sources I removed were outdated(1889, 1907) per WP:RS.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:13, 15 August 2010 (UTC)


 * As a result I will remove WP Serbia, as it's irrelevant. Thank you! --  S ulmues (talk) 12:44, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Again POV
Entered some Full citation needed because a couple of sources are incomplete. Again, for Serbian origin refer to. Thanks! --  S ulmues (talk) 22:43, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Where shall we look for a reference for her Albanian origin?


 * The Triballi were an ancient Thracian tribe so she obviously couldn't have been a daughter of Triballi king. Btw the trivia about her beauty should be removed per WP:TRIVIA.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:49, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

She couldn't have been a daughter of a Triballi family, but the name could have this origin. There is no geographical distance between Thrace and her birthplace.


 * Removed that too. Initially asked for a full citation, but then realized that was just the fictional work from Thomas Whincop from 1747, thus not reliable. --  S ulmues (talk) 23:11, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Entered a full citation needed for some sources that were brought recently. Please Review this RfC before making any further edits in this article especially if you don't fully cite your sources. --  S ulmues (talk) 23:04, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Will you stop OR-ing
"primary sources are permitted if used carefully" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OR)

(Thank you for reading and understanding the rules)--Euzen (talk) 06:14, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

"Wikipedia does not publish original research. The term "original research" refers to material—such as facts, allegations, ideas, and stories—not already published by reliable sources. It also refers to any analysis or synthesis of published material to advance a position not advanced by the sources."

MEANING

Stop giving your interpretations of the facts of how it should be explained the word triballorum or whatsoever. Find a RS which expresses directly its position regarding the ethnicity of the person, otherwise leave it alone. Aigest (talk) 07:33, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

References to Tripalda as Triballian are not OR because they come from secondary sources of late 19th c. books (G.J. von Hahn and K. Hopf). If you disagree on ORness, we may bring this issue to mediation. Also, there is some trolling here. First we see invitaion for citations ("Original citation needed") and when we give citations these are erased. View history http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vojsava_Tripalda&diff=388943971&oldid=388782413

Citations on etymology (even when they are "possible") is a standard for most Wikipedia articles. Please restore explanations on Tripalda and stop behaving like owner of the article. If you don't like citations, it's not wikipedia's problem. --Euzen (talk) 09:19, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Try to understand WP:OR and WP:RS than come again to his page. Aigest (talk) 09:26, 7 October 2010 (UTC)


 * The last paragraph was reverted because was deleted on false explanations. Hahn and Hopf are secondary sources and well known historians, experts on this field. Hopfs work on this topic occupies several volumes in a German encyclopedia. Therefore, he is more than a "reliable source". But even if we assume that these are "primary sources" or "Original Research", Wikipedia does not exclude their use. I copy from policies:

"primary sources are permitted if used carefully" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OR)

Also, on neutrality of articles: "This means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources. This is non-negotiable and expected of all articles and all editors. (Neutral point of view, lead)" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view)

If dispute is not solved through this discussion, request for mediation will by filled. Deletion of paragraph will be reported as vandalism. Claims that XX and XXI century sources must be used are considered as cheating and missinforming the readers, as this is not a Wikipedia's policy. --Euzen (talk) 08:10, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Barletius often used old classic terms of Balkan tribes, Macedonians, Epirotes etc while he was referring to Albanians. There was no link between the individual ethnicity and tribes names in his work (read later Noli, Hodgkinson on that issue). That is the reason why those 19th century sources you insist putting are outdated and not RS on the topic. Moreover they give misdirection to the readers, advancing to a position (read Tribali?) not supported by Skanderbeg's biographers, thus an OR. Aigest (talk) 08:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Nobody said that there is a link between the ancient Triballi and those mentioned by Barleti and other medieval historians. The point is that historians of that period call Triballi the Serbians (as well as Mysii the Bulgarians, sometimes Persians the Turks etc). You would like very much to replace them with the biased and unreliable Nolis and Hodgkinsons but this cannot happen. Barleti's book is online (http://www.archive.org/stream/historiadeuitaet00barl#page/4/mode/2up) and soon all classics will be digitalized. Copyists will be exposed to everybody's criticism.

This is the historical information that certain editors are trying to keep apocryphal:

In the 1508 work of best known Albanian historian Marin Barleti "Historia de vita et gestis Scanderbegi Epirotarum principis" it is written that Vojsava came from a noble Triballian family: ("...uxori Voisavae nomen erat, nó indigná co uiro tum pater nobilissimus Tribalorum princeps..." (Barleti, page 4, upper left), thus, Tripalda is an epithet of the corrupted tribal name, found in Italian sources of 1600. Contemporary Byzantine works used Triballi as synonym for Serbs, for instance, Manuel II Palaiologos in his letters (JSTOR: The English Historical Review, Vol. 53, No. 209 (Jan., 1938), pp. 129-131) and others (see WP article Triballi for more references).  --Euzen (talk) 20:05, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Euzen, this is wikipedia. You are experiencing the same problems that I have had in the past. I wanted to assert that Pirro Dhima was an Albanian becuase I had a source saying that the Dhima last name from that area (Himara)is an Albanian last name. However I didn't have a source saying that Pirro Dhima was an Albanian, so bottom line, Pirro Dhima is a Greek in Wikipedia. Same for Voisava. If someone says she was a Triballi and then someone else says she the Triballi were Serbians, saying that she was a Serbian, with no RS is still WP:SYNTH. And please avoid personal attacks. --  S ulmues (talk) 13:46, 13 October 2010 (UTC)

I didn't personally attacked anybody, at least not on purpose. I didn't see that about Dimas but let me assure you that you get to nowhere if you play with the names. Dimas is a most common name in Greece, also common in variants as Dimou, Dimos, Dimakis etc, all from "Dimitris" or "Demetrios" in its classical form. In Chimara there are plenty of Greek families and of course many Dimas. Ethnic Albanians may also have the same name. Trying to turn everybody to Albanian actually makes more damage than good. Editors and articles lose credivility and are not taken seriously by educated readers. What is more, you probably score autogoals. E.g. by now, everyone who has red this discussion knows that the Castrioti family includes persons of mixed or uncertain ethnicity/religion/language/lineage. Clumsy phrases like "grand-grand-grand-grandmother" are attracting attention and are the telltale of some hidden truth. The curious reader goes to read about Comnenos etc. You cannot change the whole byzantine history. Your other attempt with the "modern secondary sources" will possibly complicate things.--84.205.231.40 (talk) 08:23, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * And.... you just forgot to log in, :-). Now I know who you are, or I should have assumed it was you since I saw the new "Euzen" account? --  S ulmues (talk) 13:22, 14 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Or someone predicted your assumption :-)

I would co-sign the above post, anyway.--Euzen (talk) 18:06, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Branilo, brother of Skanderbeg?!
All Gjon Kastrioti sons are mentioned in a document of Hilandar Monastir. Branilo was not there. Also none of the contemporary sources, Hodgkinson, Francione, Frasheri, Noli, even the older ones Barletius, Blancus, don't mention him. Will you guys stop OR-ing. Aigest (talk) 07:51, 6 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Who said that Branilo was Sk's brother? Before you rush to give orders to other users what to do and when to come again (this is not your home) which is not civil, you will possibly have to read twice. Branilo is the christian name given to Hamza, Skanderbeg's nephew, in 1443 after he left the Turks. He was son of Stanisha and Despina Comneno. The same name (as Branai) is given again to his grandson. So, we have at least two in the family tree. Hopf (1873), page 533, online here http://s937.photobucket.com/albums/ad211/bluesone2/History1/?action=view&current=FamilleCastriota.jpg --Euzen (talk) 06:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Take a look at a previous version of the article where Branilo is presented as brother of Skanderbeg. Try to understand others before reacting and I've already explained you before why that page is not WP:RS wrong, outdated and not supported by XX & XXI centuries sources. Aigest (talk) 15:22, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Is it possible that Voisava was ethnicly Serbian?
--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Since Scanderbeg time two sources are considered the most useful and full of information on Scanderbeg family, either book of Barletius or Chronicle of Muzaka. Everyone later practically has copied from them. They are both represented in the article. Aigest (talk) 08:41, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, not only do the personal names in the family (Vojislava, Stanisha, Vlajica etc) point to this, also the fact that Tripalda translates to "of Triballia/Triballians" - Triballi/Triballians being an exclusive exonym of Serbs in contemporary Byzantine sources (from the 11th century onwards), the Slavic origin of Vojsava cannot be denied! My references have all been removed. --Zoupan (talk) 10:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * It looks like there are two group of reliable sources about her ethnicity. According to WP:NPOV wikipedia articles are requested to fairly present "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources". Therefore both group of sources about her ethnicity should be fairly presented in the article.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * 1912 and 1915 sources aren't rs Antid. and please read WP:GETOVERIT.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:15, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Zjarri is welcome to ask rs noticeboard about that sources, those look quite valid and reliable. Without a question that we must add both sides to make neutral and good encyclopedia. Wikipedia is not nationalistic battleground. As some sources are from the middle of 20th century, they are far from outdated. Zjarri, you cannot remove 20 sources just because you alone don't like them! That is heavy violation of wiki rules. -- WhiteWriter speaks 20:05, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * WW there was a RfC and there is also RS, which you simply violated. Btw don't start trying to add again 19th century sources, which simply say that the name Tribaldi was also used for Slavs. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:21, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Where are those RfC, point it out. Then we will see. :) -- WhiteWriter speaks 20:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * WW you were one of those who replied, so please check the archives on Skanderbeg and read WP:OR about connecting the word itself with a person.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * No, you are the one who questioned it. Show us the RfC link and RS noticeboard link regarding all those sources. This is not discussion only between me and you, so i must insist. -- WhiteWriter speaks 20:38, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * WW check the Skanderbeg archives and read RS(1905 sources are not rs). I'm off for the day, but if you still can't find I'll get you the link.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 20:46, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
 * You don't want to show us the link on which you reverted article? Who on earth we can know what is that, and where is it? I don't want to search for it, show us first, you should already have it prepared, as you reverted per that! -- WhiteWriter speaks 20:54, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

(unindent)This issue has been already discussed at Scanderbeg article. Just go with his biographers, they have dealt with this issue in details, others are just short sentences with no RS in this matter. See also Scanderbeg own statements in his official letters. Aigest (talk) 12:44, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I want to see post from reliable source noticeboard, where all of those sources are disapproved, as i asked above. That is only relevant method. -- WhiteWriterspeaks 12:36, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * As none was able to place a link in this talk page about questions above, and none even responded for a week, sourced information's are now reverted. I do not want to search in vain as i did, if you think that some things shouldn't be in this article, you must write here, or at least post a links with crucial information's. As i didn't find those things you mention, bring them here. Only with discussion we will agree, not with blind edit warring. -- WhiteWriter speaks 17:42, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Please stick to the sources and read the RfC . Btw even when adding fringe sources, at least add ones that are somehow related to the subject and not ones that aren't about the subject but about the use of the word Tribaldi.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:05, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Using directly historical sources, and not through expert literature, is a violation of WP:OR - therefore, we should keep off of Scanderbey's letters and early biographers! --AVNOJist (talk) 20:25, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


 * OK, you are so much wrong. First, that is RfC about including one fact into Skanderbeg article, not this one. Then only Fut. Perf. partly commented, which is way poor for this, and he DIDNT SAY that those sources are unreliable, he just pointed that "none of those strikes him as particularly relevant/reliable". That entire post is So that is NOT WHAT YOU TOLD HERE as reason for revert. And not what i asked. We need opinion about using those in articles anywhere. Also, stop with that questionable agenda that sources are outdated. That is pointless, groundless and means nothing. Therefor, i will ask for true RfC regarding this subject and this person, so we will see. I dont want to enter edit war nationalistic battle that you are fighting all over wikipedia, so others will be the one who will propose neutral solution for this. I tagged article, and i will not edit it until we agree here. I am sure that solution is available, as all sides must be presented. -- WhiteWriter speaks 00:41, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I still can't understand why so many sources are deemed unreliable, the fact that Voisava was born in Polog is undisputed, but that Polog was in the Serbian realm at the time is nowhere to be seen, and also the names in the family clearly suggest a Serb character. All Byzantine historians from the 11th century onwards use the exonym "Tribali" for Serbs, but Albanian historians have altered this as a surname.--Zoupan (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Why revision? RfC?
I do not see any sort of compromise at the supposed RfC. The Request for Comment isn't really a request for comment, but just a section of text.

Also, I don't understand the removal of reliable sources.

1. A historical source can become outdated only if it is shown that it is erroneous

2. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. It shows all aspects of a neutral point-of-view. When there are misconceptions, articles mention them - e.g. the misconceptions about the identity of the Mycenaean civilization before there script was deciphered. I see no justification to remove something which was once obviously a universally-accepted scientific fact, and which is frequently also mentioned today.

Do excuse me, but (1905 sources are not rs) means nothing and isn't a reliable claim on its own. ;)

Btw don't start trying to add again 19th century sources, which simply say that the name Tribaldi was also used for Slavs. - the historical sources are not from the 19th century, but range from as far back as the 11th century. Professional historical literature interprets these sources the same way that has been scientifically determined in the mid 20th century; the term Tribals is a name for Serbs (not Slavs) used in foreign historical sources (another example being the Dalmats or on rare occasion, Dacians). --AVNOJist (talk) 20:22, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, i suppose that this section with those numerous sources was removed also as unreliable and outdated. Lets face it. It is just POV fight. AVNOJist, i will not edit this (it is pointless to edit war) until RfC is over, so as uninvolved comment it again in RfC section. I will create it tomorrow. -- WhiteWriter speaks 00:41, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * RfC? What RfC?
 * How am I supposed to comment in the Archive??? --AVNOJist (talk) 22:16, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Serbian origin
After such a marvelous addition of references and sources, and after i saw this amassing list by User:Antidiskriminator, it is quite clear to me that only the same or bigger amount of better sources claiming opposite may raise a question about this info. It looks like Voisava really, out of question, was of Serbian origin. -- WhiteWriter speaks 16:49, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * They have all been refuted even by admins and btw regarding The Pseudo Tsar Stephen the Small and other similar sources you should read WP:RS.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:45, 3 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Can you please show me where this is stated? The sources are more than enough, I don't understand why you are so active in erasing these historical facts, If the page is reverted once more, I will call an Administrator to take a look at the article and its sources. You are free to add your thoughts to the talk page, NOT by reverting added material in the article. --Zoupan (talk) 16:39, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Check the Skanderbeg archives and please read WP:OR because when Barleti doesn't use the word Serb and you attribute it to him it's a violation of that policy. Btw why did you start the article on Andrea Gropa and presented him as a Serbian nobleman?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:11, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
 * As we asked you already numerous times for a link where all of these sources have been rejected, and you didn't show us, i will revert this. It is not OR, per my personal opinion, and instead i find it just blind revert. Therefor, you (or ) are publicly invited to list diffs where all of these sources are rejected. I know that 16 sources we have in here are worth mentioning, and you CANNOT just remove them, as that may be (and probably is) POV pushing. Only possible way for us to continue discussion is:
 * 1. You show us diffs where all 16 sources was rejected. Diffs, not somewhere in Skanderbeg archive, (which i know very well, btw). Diffs, from RS noticeboard, where several editors discarded all 16 of them.
 * 2. Bringing good online sources that we can check, with citation, and all other related data, as it is apparently that trusting on this subject is not wise anymore. (Fan Noli, 14th Prime Minister of Albania is not RS on this question, that is quite obvious. Also, "Fan Noli p. 189, note 33."? Where, when, what? Without link, or anything. That is good source? No, its not! :) Also, sources presented by IP are easy to check and see, and something like that would be wise to introduce. If you include source, you should now something from that source, obviously. So, tell us what is source about, and write important things. Aigest, as i understood, you write on edit summary that you have read all of her's biographers (Barletius, Francus, Muzaka and later Noli, Hodgkinson, Frasheri), as you inform us to read it. Please, post links with that info, or anything that we can see.
 * After this, we will see. But without this, it is pointless to discuss. Both sides should bring sources, that are useful, and trustful. As for now, only one side did that. I hope that we will find some useful solution to this question, and i invite all to discuss without nationalistic pretensions, in the same way as we did in Kosovo talk. Here, all we need are sources. But good one, and not 14th Prime Minister of Albania. :) :) -- WhiteWriter speaks 16:35, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WW 19th century literature isn't reliable, so please read WP:RS. The sources have been reviewed many times and even when another one came up it was refuted and the discussion continued to the exact location of her birth without the previous POV. Btw Noli was a Harvard graduate scholar, who also was a revolutionary that became Albania's prime minister for some months. His work has been labeled as the most comprehensive biography in English of Gjergj Kastrioti.-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 20:38, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * 19th century literature? What exactly, sorry... Please, point that, i really don't know what are you questioning. :) And if that is only one, we will see. That link you send me talks about the source that is, as far as i can see, not included in this article, so... Also, i didn't question Noli's competence, but his neutrality. But, anyway, we use that source in this version of article, if you even bothered to read the version you reverted... :) Anyway, i still wait to see that diffs where all of those sources are discarded, if that diff even exist. If not, i would ask all of you to stop reverting, and TALK HERE FIRST. There is not even single reason for this version to be reverted, as i see now... Talk to me, with arguments, and sources, and we will agree. That is the only possible way. -- WhiteWriter speaks 20:57, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * It's the most comprehensive biography in English i.e it's RS. Btw all the 19th century sources have been refuted, so unless you can bring RS ones without the SYNTH that is attributed to many of them you should stop reverting.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I talked to Zjarri over IRC, and we come to some interesting conclusions, but we will wait him to post explanation for all sources, in the way he did over IRC, as we didn't conclude anything, while agreed to disagree! :) Then we will comment, source by source. -- WhiteWriter speaks 21:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WhiteWriter, the sources used in the article have already been submitted to the Reliable Sources Notice Board and were not deemed reliable for this topic. --Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:42, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
 * These sources have been refuted so many times and the people, who add them don't even read those sources, some of which mention nothing about Voisava. The rest have been refuted on other discussions and WP:RS.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:30, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I added RfC. In the link that Gaius Claudius presented, only few of the sources are questioned, and not the majority. Also, we MUST write that hers origin is at least disputed, and that she may be Serbian quite easy! Also, if he and Skanderbeg had nothing with Serbs, why would he then give villages and gifts to the Serbian Hilandar? I am afraid that only real question here is that Skanderbeg, Albanian hero, may have Serbian mother. But back then, people was not so overwhelmed with nationalistic pretensions, so lets create neutral encyclopedia, by presenting ALL related data, and not just one sided POV. -- WhiteWriter speaks 12:14, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WW please read WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Sources 17,18,19,20 say nothing about Skanderbeg's mother i.e WP:SYNTH. Source one apart from being outdated is just reviewing and refuting another author i.e not WP:RS(also regarding Hilandar the tower of the Kastrioti family is called Arbanaski pirg, so the verdict is on that). Outdated tertiary sources or sources that say reportedly etc. can't be used and aren't RS. Btw per BRD you should wait for the RfC to add your view and not edit-war to keep your version.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:49, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, WW's OR is quite easily refutable. Reposh Kastrioti's grave in Hilandar says dux Illyricus, meaning Albanian Duke. Furthermore, the area in which he is buried is called Arbanashki pirg, meaning Albanian narthex. It is well known that many Albanians converted to Serbian Orthodoxy during Tsar Dushan's rule, especially in Dibra.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 14:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Who said that "Illyricus" means "Albanian"? Btw, the addition that she was "possibly born in Berat" adds to our knowledge on the possible expansion of Triballians. --Euzen (talk) 10:43, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

revert
Hi, I reverted this page, because it it going in a very strong POV direction. please make it more neutral and represent all sides with citations. mike James Michael DuPont (talk) 20:11, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposal
"Ethnicity of Vojsava is disputed. Some sources claim she is Slav while other sources claim she is Albanian."

By presenting the information about her ethnicity in the above way we would follow WP:NPOV and provide readers with list of sources allowing the interested readers to make their own decisions instead of misleading them. By doing this we would also prevent further edit wars and conflicts because any editor who has a source claiming she was Slav or Albanian can easily add that source in the appropriate list of sources.

Furthermore, if there is a need to explain position of sources in more details, debates about her ethnicity or events connected with it, we can create a separate article about her ethnicity and place all detailed explanations and arguments there without cluttering the main article with it. In that case ALT2 of above mentioned sentence could look like this:

"Ethnicity of Vojsava is disputed. Some sources claim she is Slav while other sources claim she is Albanian."

I think that my proposal is compromise that follows wikipedia NPOV policy without discrediting any of the POVs.

If there is general consensus about my proposal, we can organize a !voting. We could invite interested editors and members of the related wikiprojects to participate in !voting. At the end of the !voting, we would ask neutral third party (admininstrators) to close the !voting, unlock the article and, in case this proposal is supported, add above mentione sentence to the text of the article with creating suitable FAQ section on the talk page.

Comments are welcomed. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:15, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Comments about proposal

 * An admin has warned you about WP:IDHT and another one suggested that you edit other subjects.. An admin, a reviewer and even a RS discussion didn't support any of them i.e please read WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Btw Wikipedia is not a democracy.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 08:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Please follow the WP:No personal attacks and "Comment on content (proposal), not on the contributor (me)." You were asked many times by other users (diff, diff, diff and diff) to provide links which support your claims. Another user already wrote "As we asked you already numerous times for a link where all of these sources have been rejected, and you didn't show us..." Please provide requested diffs which support your claims because otherwise someone (not me) could see your comments on this talk page as tendentious editing. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You were a participant of those discussions and even the latest of your sources was refuted .-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Closing my proposal: Lists of sources about ethnicity claims
My proposal is not feasible because it was decided during AfD processes that stand alone articles with lists which support only certain claims are against wikipedia policies.

Therefore lists I created as stand alone articles were deleted. There were many users that participated in AfD discussion who expressed their opinion that those lists could be useful for further article development (they are both made using citation template). Therefore, I am providing below links to those lists on my userpage for informative and development purpose:
 * User:Antidiskriminator/Drafts of articles/List of sources about claims that Vojsava Kastrioti was Slav
 * User:Antidiskriminator/Drafts of articles/List of sources about claims that Vojsava Kastrioti was Albanian

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:56, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Renaming?
According to Manual_of_Style_(biographies) "While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known. Many cultures have a tradition of not using the full name of a person in everyday reference, but the article should start with the complete version."

Maybe we should rename the article to Vojsava Kastrioti since it is the name by which she is most commonly known, after she got married to Gjon (Ivan, Jovan...) and gave birth to George? I think that Tripalda as her last name is largely criticized and disputed which is not the case with Kastrioti last name.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:24, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Those who have anything against the renaming are invited to leave comment below.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:48, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

Sources on Voisava being ethnic Albanian
As the extreme majority of sources point on a Serb origin, i would ask for sources denying this or in any other way claiming Voisava being ethnic Albanian. --Zoupan (talk) 22:41, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

What actually the translation points to.... Aigest (talk) 10:45, 18 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Once more
 * "On the quote you provided Harry Hodgkinson says: "She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi" but he do not claim she is Albanian, so this may be SYNTH."
 * "a) What is the name of the book he wrote that contain quoted text? b) Is there quote in which he himself claimed Albanian ethnicity of Vojsava? In the quote you provided he claim that some historians claim she is Slav and some other she is Albanian. Then he wrote what Musachi said. Please provide a quote with Frasheri's opinion about her ethnicity, if there is one.!"
 * Do we have ANY undisputed reliable source on this? That all users can agree on. -- WhiteWriter speaks 18:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Do we have ANY undisputed reliable source on this? That all users can agree on. -- WhiteWriter speaks 18:36, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Prot
Page protected to facilitate discussion and prevent edit warring per request. Any admin can reverse this without contacting me. --Closedmouth (talk) 23:22, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

Number of children
There is an obvious mistake with number of the children Vojsava had with Mr. Kastrioti.

"Through her marriage with Gjon Kastrioti, she had 8 children, one of them Albanian national hero Skanderbeg and four other sons, Stanisha, Reposh, Branilo, and Konstantin, and four daughters (Jela, Marica, Mara, and Vlajica)."

I propose to correct above mentioned mistake by replacing the text from the article with correct number of the children and their names. Proposals are welcome.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:54, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Proposal
The article says:

"She was probably a member of the Muzaka family (Musachi) of the Principality of Berat."

During RSN and RfC about Vojsava it was agreed that: can be considered as RSN in context of this article.
 * only secondary sources
 * presenting statements of contemporary historians (their opinion, not them citing someone else or WP:SYNTH)
 * published in works during last 20 years

The sources referenced to support above mentioned statement (Noli and Hodgkinson) do not meet the criteria for RSN because:
 * 1) They are not presenting statements of contemporary historians published in works during last 20 years
 * 2) They are WP:SYNTH because both Noli and Hodkinson wrote what John Muzaka (or someone else) said.

Also, let me remind you that Robert Elsie, Albanophile and expert on Albanian studies, characterizes John Musachi's chronicle as "no work of great scholarship" whose historical accounts are confusing, although it is an important source for late 15th-century Albania.(1515. John Musachi: Brief Chronicle on the Descendants of our Musachi Dynasty")

There is neutral contemporary historian, who wrote his opinion in his work published in last 20 years:



This source meets all agreed criteria for RSN and can be used as source for statement about Vojsava's family.

Therefore I propose to change above mentioned sentence to be like:

“She was probably a member of the Brankovići family.”

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 20:47, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Comments

 * It was refuted on RSN i.e please read WP:RS. Btw Noli is considered the standard source for Skanderbeg and Hodgkinson co-wrote his work with David Albulafia.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 21:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Will you please be so kind to present the link to the RSN you refer to?
 * David Albulafia did not co-wr o ite above mentioned work. He only wrote the intro, not the claim about family of Vojsava. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:18, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It's spelt "did not co-write" in the Past Tense. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 02:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * And you should definitely be named Doktor Smart! FkpCascais (talk) 09:07, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Some users are censoring instead of editing this article. It is WP's principle that all reliable sources must be reflected in an article. Can someone explain why Prof. O. Schmitt and other historian are excluded in favour of a non-expert biased copyist author (Hodgkinson)? --Euzen (talk) 09:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * As we can see on the RS noticeboard, Schmitt appears at first blush to be a promising source, don't use the magazine, use his book as the source. This reliable source is included in the article. If anyone questioned it, while several other users agreed on it, that same user MUST use reliable source noticeboard, or some other normal guideline solution. Zjarri, really, final, final warning regarding your misinformation's and lies on this page. How can you, after so many normal civilized pleas by multiple users? Hodgkinson should be questioned in some better way, as this discussion on RS/N didn't bring solution. Although more users disagreed with this source then agreed. Also, i would include my self in those disagreeing. If we even forget all other questions, but The Centre for Albanian Studies, which main aim is “to publish books, pamphlets and to also organise conferences and seminars relating to Albania, Kosova and Albanian speaking world”, and all of that in 1999, while Hodgkinson died in 1994? C'mon, that is not international reliable source... -- WhiteWriter speaks 13:36, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * David Abulafia is one of the co-writers i.e RS. Btw that's not a result for inclusion of Schmitt on RSN, but on RFC the inclusion wasn't even proposed by others. WW you started another RSN for Noli, Hodgkinson etc. and according to that And looking at the other sources ... they all seem reliable to me. Again, is there a reason you question them?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:52, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * @ZjarriRrethues: That is not true. Link that you provided show that WW started another RSN only for Noli, not for Hodgkinson etc. Will you please answer my question (Will you please be so kind to present the link to the RSN you refer to?). Please read Wikipedia:Tendentious editing: One who ignores or refuses to answer good faith questions from other editors --Antidiskriminator (talk) 15:58, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Antid: WW asked Also, are any of the sources currently presented in the article reliable? and the answer was 'And looking at the other sources ... they all seem reliable to me. Again, is there a reason you question them?'.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * @ZjarriRrethues: Yes, you are right about his question. Sorry about it. Since Schmitt is not in that list I will repeat my question. (Will you please be so kind to present the link to the RSN you refer to?)--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Surely there are better sources than this if the subject is truly notable i.e WW shouldn't use parts of the RSN, but the whole review.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:20, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The source I presented above was never discussed on that RSN. Take closer look. On the list of sources discussed on RSN was newspaper text and interview of Oliver Schmitt about his book: “Skanderbeg: der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan”
 * The source I presented here is completely another book:
 * This source was never "refuted on RSN" (as you said) becase it was not included in the list of sources submitted to the RSN. But Noli was . --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * This source was never "refuted on RSN" (as you said) becase it was not included in the list of sources submitted to the RSN. But Noli was . --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:40, 6 May 2011 (UTC)


 * Are there any other contemporary scholars who agree with Schmitt or is he the only one to sustain the liaison Brankovic-Tripalda? --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 17:01, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Good question. Schmitt is THE contemporary scholar on the Albanian history. Let' see now if Hodgkinson is a scholar at all, and let us also see who is the contemporary scholar supporting that Vojsava was Albanian. The users also deserve an explanation on the reason why Barletti's information on Vojsava is not included in this article, while other Albania-related articles are vastly depending on him. Any good explanation will be transfered to other articles' discussions and edits.--Euzen (talk) 19:34, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Mmmmmmm, Schmitt, THE contemporary scholar on Albanian history? Don't think so. His publication on Skanderbeg was very controversial. Although I recognize the importance of a revisionist, I wouldn't say that he is "the" historian. As a matter of fact you didn't answer my question: Are there any other revisionists like him right now, yes? no? maybe? --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 19:56, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
 * The contemporary scholar on Albanian history is Kristo Frasheri who has been studying Skanderbeg and Albanian history in general for more than fifty years. Schmitt hasn't even been alive for fifty years.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 01:19, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Kristo Frasheri (like everybody else) has to study his country's history throughout his life. We are talking about scholars with international recognition and work in major languages. I was not able to find any K.F.'s works in other than Albanian language but my search was possibly not exhaustive. On the other hand, we are looking for scholars who are not involved in current nationalistic propaganda and who may be considered reasonably objective. Unfortunatelly, K.F. is currently involved in anti-Greek propaganda around the North Epirus Greek minority, the coming census in Albania, attacking Bishop Anastasios etc. Translation of his interview in the "Shqip" at "Top Channel" is available, including his opinion that during middle ages there were no Greeks in Albania and that there is no Greek minority in Himara, Argyrokastro and Agioi Saranta. However, I find no reason why his opinion on Vojsava should not be mentioned in this article and I'm sure they are. The point is the inclusion of all views so that the article is really encyclopedic and informative. --Euzen (talk) 10:59, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * You are inviting a topic which is not within the scope of this article (eg. Anastasios, Nothern Epirus), ie. please read WP:NOT.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * @Euzen, if we are looking for scholars who are not involved in current nationalistic propaganda, we ought to exclude Schmitt first, because he is deeply perceived in Albania as an anti-Albanian. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 15:26, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * @Gaius Claudius Nero: Please take care about what wikipedia say about tendentious editing. Wikipedia:Tendentious editing - One who disputes the reliability of apparently good sources. Also, you should take care about One who ignores or refuses to answer good faith questions from other editors. After you wrote stating that: "Kristo Frashëri...says she's Albanian", "Harry Hodgkinson...says she's Albanian", "Fan Noli says she's Albanian",  I asked you almost a month ago to clarify your claims and to provide details (works and quotations) which prove your claims that Frasheri, Hodgkinson and Noli said that “she's Albanian”. Thanks in advance for your clarifications.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 11:13, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Antid. does any other scholar support the Brankovic view?(i.e if it's only Schmitt that's a WP:FRINGE). Btw if the Brankovic link was even a possibility there should be something in the sources about Đurađ Branković and Skanderbeg, who would be related. None of the primary/secondary sources, which deal with the Albanian-Venetian war, Varna etc. mention a relation between the two.-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 12:19, 7 May 2011 (UTC)


 * The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century to the Ottoman Conquest considered to be one of the best works about the late medieval Balkans doesn't mention that view even as a possibility, although it does extensively deal with the Brankovic-Skanderbeg affairs.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 12:38, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * We have two sources about her family:
 * One is Gjon Muzaka who claim that she is member of Muzaka family. Muzaka is not contemporary historian. Muzaka family are Albanians.
 * Another is Oliver Jens Schmitt who claim that she is probably a member of the Brankovići family. Oliver Jens Schmitt is contemporary historian. Brankovići family are Serbs.
 * Taking in consideration:
 * there are dozens of sources about Vojsava being Serb, many of them written by contemporary historians
 * there are no sources about Vojsava being Albanian
 * that work of Gjon Muzaka is considered as "no work of great scholarship" even by Albanophiles like Robert Elsie
 * if any claim must be defined as Fringe, it is more likely to be Muzaka's then Scmitt's.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:51, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Antid. is there anyone else except for Schmitt that supports the Brankovic view(i.e WP:FRINGE)? Btw Muzaka is a primary source and the Muzaka view is maintained by scholars like David Abulafia.--17:07, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * I already gave the answer about number of sources about her family. Refusal to "get the point" is disruptive to Wikipedia and someone could see it as tendentious editing. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:17, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Zjarri is right. Schmitt's theory is fringe material. It is not accepted by any other scholars. Furthermore, he does not even cite where he got the Brankovic from and never even says how he got it.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't drag the frame of discussion from ethnicity to family. The important information is about "Triballian" or "Serbian" origin, by citing 3 or 4 sources. The "Brankovic" information may be added as an "assumption" citing Schmitt.--Euzen (talk) 17:56, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Zoupan proved that I was wrong when I stated that we have only two sources about her family. He provided one more source for her being Branković. Work written by contemporary scholar who interpreted primary documents. I believe this closes this case. Thank you Zoupan.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 07:03, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * @Gaius Claudius Nero: Momčilo Spremić is a member of Serbian Academy of Science and Arts, specialist for history of Balkans in late middle ages, who wrote numerous works about Brankovići, received Vuk’s Endowment Award for Science for his work about Branković. He is another contemporary historian, besides Boban Petrovski, who supported Schmitt's theories (emphasizing Schmitt's opinion about her being Branković(кћи Гргура Бранковића, сина великог севастократора Бранка, који je господарио у Охриду. (daughter of Grgur Braković, son of sevastocrator Branko, who governed his territories from Ochrid)) and stated that Schmitt's work is "најбоље написана историја Скендербега" (the best biography of Skanderbeg till now). Your claim that Schmitt's findings about Vojsava being member of Brankovici fammily are not supported by other scholars are proven not to be true. Why do you try so hard to dispute reliability of apparently good source written by historian whose works you extensively use in the articles you write? Let me remind you that you used Schmitt as referenced source 21 times in (good) article Skanderbeg's Italian expedition.
 * Also, let me remind you that you should take care about One who ignores or refuses to answer good faith questions from other editors. After you wrote stating that: "Kristo Frashëri...says she's Albanian", "Harry Hodgkinson...says she's Albanian", "Fan Noli says she's Albanian", I asked you almost a month ago to clarify your claims and to provide details (works and quotations) which prove your claims that Frasheri, Hodgkinson and Noli said that “she's Albanian”. Thanks in advance for your clarifications (for the third time). --Antidiskriminator (talk) 12:13, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Zoupan added again all the sources that were refuted and few more from sites like makedonika(i.e not RS). Why can't you stick to the results of the RSN and the RfC? Every few days one of you comes back to add again the same refuted sources, the Barleti synth and everything else related to it. Antid. this website (an online journal that also deals with Macedonian pre-history) isn't RS, so take it to RSN.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:37, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Removed text
I have removed this text : On her ethnic origin most authors support that she was Serbian     , possibly Based on what I can understand here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_94#Help_needed and here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_53 they are not reliable. please let talk about it. Maybe we should just make a section on the "viewpoint" that she is serbian and document it instead of presenting it as a fact? James Michael DuPont (talk) 21:14, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

Sources on Serbian origin
Only source where Voisava is Albanian is here, Fan Stylian Noli, and Musachi. Also, thesis that Tripalda is epithet for Serb is heavily sourced. And if we disband few sources that are not so good, what about the rest? In a first look, i found 26 sources! And what about the rest? So, per this, i ask for inclusion of the sources and data about Voisava origin, and quitting on political and ethnic agenda. Skanderbeg will not be less hero with Serbian mother. In this moment, all i see is 27 sources vs. 1 source. And if that first sources are only one relevant, how come that ALL sources we can find now write that Voisava is Serbian? I really cannot understand this blindness regarding sources... -- WhiteWriter speaks 15:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WW that one source you're comparing the SYNTH, OR and non-RS to is most comprehensive biography in English of Gjergj Kastrioti i.e don't compare number of sources but their quality.
 * 19th century literature isn't reliable, so please read WP:RS. The sources have been reviewed many times and even when another one came up it was refuted. You're quoting even Marin Barleti, but he never says anything about Voisava being a Serb, so plese don't attribute to him your WP:OR and don't connect it with any Serbs=Triballians(WP:SYNTH). 19th century and early 20th century tertiary sources aren't reliable per WP:RS like non-academic sources that speak about a Serbian-Albanian brotherhood. Btw why did you move the discussion without moving the replies to your RfC?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WW why are you labeling a 1938 book review, which isn't even academic work as a 2002 Oxford publication?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 15:59, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Well comments of all of you are known, and we dont need that in RfC, so i started new one in here, before anyone new and uninvolved responded. I am sorry to say, but it is complete and otter lye that sources have been reviewed and refuted. That poor link you repeated deals with only one source. You are welcomed to use your own space, and comment each and every source, but stop spamming with untruthful comments, please. If i make some mistake, it was not intentional. This is really not OK anymore. -- WhiteWriter speaks 16:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WW, there's more than one source saying Voisava was Albanian. (You already know them actually as you've participated in those discussions.) As for your sources, the majority of them have been deemed unreliable (See here: ). And it is not a lie that they have been refuted: Aigest et co. have been refuting them for ages -- in discussions you have participated in. As I have said before, the previous revision does not exclusively state that she was Albanian in an effort to maintain NPOV. What you are doing is POV-pushing.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:19, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * But people, please, give me diffs! I am asking that for days! List here sources, list all possible things, and we will see! I couldn't find any more sources with Voisava being Albanian. Post here! Some of the sources are not ok, i know that, but lest now deal with that once and for all. -- WhiteWriter speaks 16:24, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine:
 * Kristo Frashëri, the most reputable source on the study of Skanderbeg who has been studying the man for more than fifty years, says she's Albanian. (Sorry but this is in Albanian: Ndërkohë, Gjon Kastrioti kishte krijuar një familje me një karvan fëmijë. Burimet tregimtare pajtohen kur thonë se ai ishte martuar me Vojsava Tribaldën, e bija e sundimtarit të Pollogut (trevë midis Gostivarit dhe Tetovës)... Sidoqoftë pë shkak të emrit, disa historianë e konsiderojnë Vojsavën sllave nga familja. Por të tjerë, duke u nisur nga lehtësia me të cilen shqiptarët kanë përdorur emra të huaj, (Karl Thopia dhe Gjergj Arianiti kishin vajza me emrin Vojsava), nuk e gjykojnë kombësinë e tyre as nga emri, as nga mbiemri, ndonëse në këtë rast, mbiemri Tribalda nuk është me origjinë sllave, por ilire. Ndër shkrimtarët e hershëm, Gjon Muzaka e thotë shkoqur se Tribaldët qenë shqiptarë. |en|Nd%C3%ABrkoh%C3%AB%2C%20Gjon%20Kastrioti%20kishte%20krijuar%20nj%C3%AB%20familje%20me%20nj%C3%AB%20karvan%20f%C3%ABmij%C3%AB.%20Burimet%20tregimtare%20pajtohen%20kur%20thon%C3%AB%20se%20ai%20ishte%20martuar%20me%20Vojsava%20Tribald%C3%ABn%2C%20e%20bija%20e%20sundimtarit%20t%C3%AB%20Pollogut%20(trev%C3%AB%20midis%20Gostivarit%20dhe%20Tetov%C3%ABs)...%20Sidoqoft%C3%AB%20p%C3%AB%20shkak%20t%C3%AB%20emrit%2C%20disa%20historian%C3%AB%20e%20konsiderojn%C3%AB%20Vojsav%C3%ABn%20sllave%20nga%20familja.%20Por%20t%C3%AB%20tjer%C3%AB%2C%20duke%20u%20nisur%20nga%20leht%C3%ABsia%20me%20t%C3%AB%20cilen%20shqiptar%C3%ABt%20kan%C3%AB%20p%C3%ABrdorur%20emra%20t%C3%AB%20huaj%2C%20(Karl%20Thopia%20dhe%20Gjergj%20Arianiti%20kishin%20vajza%20me%20emrin%20Vojsava)%2C%20nuk%20e%20gjykojn%C3%AB%20komb%C3%ABsin%C3%AB%20e%20tyre%20as%20nga%20emri%2C%20as%20nga%20mbiemri%2C%20ndon%C3%ABse%20n%C3%AB%20k%C3%ABt%C3%AB%20rast%2C%20mbiemri%20Tribalda%20nuk%20%C3%ABsht%C3%AB%20me%20origjin%C3%AB%20sllave%2C%20por%20ilire.%20Nd%C3%ABr%20shkrimtar%C3%ABt%20e%20hersh%C3%ABm%2C%20Gjon%20Muzaka%20e%20thot%C3%AB%20shkoqur%20se%20Tribald%C3%ABt%20qen%C3%AB%20shqiptar%C3%AB. Translation)
 * Gjon Muzaka claims that she is a descendant of his family, a self-proclaimed Albanian family. (See p. 308: )
 * Harry Hodgkinson's work, which has been vetted by David Abulafia one of the premier historians on Mediterranean History, says she's Albanian from the Muzaka Family. (She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi: they were the most powerful family in the south, controlling Berat and the fertile coastal area which had been the granary of Albania since classical times.) See also Bejtullah Destani's note: Scanderbeg's Origins: Since everything in the Balkans has to be turned to political effect, both Greeks and Slavs have claimed Scanderbeg as one of themselves... The claim that Scanderbeg was a Slav was first made by a German who misread a document of 1638 in Serbian. Among the signatories were a Branilo (a Slav Christian name) of Vlora and a Castrioti of Kanina. By overlooking the signle letter 'i' (meaning 'and'), he produced Branilo Castrioti as Scanderbeg's Serbian great-grandfather.
 * Fan Noli says she's Albanian. (see here)
 * Prof. Kenneth Walters of Wayne State University says she could not be Serbian or Greek but Albanian in a documentary about Skanderbeg. (see moment 9:04; the documentary was originally in English)
 * Furthermore, Skanderbeg calls himself an Albanian and never refers to himself as Serbian. See his message to Giovanni Antonio del Balzo Orsini: Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. (see blue font; Oliver Jens Schmitt maintains this letter's authenticity)
 * I have already said that it is not my purpose to put Voisava as an Albanian since I want to maintain NPOV. Please accept that.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:12, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Good Gaius. At least you agree that we are seeking a NPOV here. Regarding the above link on Sk. calling himshelf Albanian, the original epistle and even the translation you direct us to, do not sustain this claim.


 * "Our people" and "Albanians" belong to two different secondary sentences and you need a good effort to conclude that it means "I am Albanian".
 * "Albanians" does not necessarily mean ethnicity.
 * In the same epistle he says (original): "Majores nostri Epirotae fuerunt, ex quibus ille Pirrhus prodijt,...". This literally translates to "Our elder were Epirotes ...", not "from Epirus" as the anonymous translator cleverly put it. So, according to your logic, Skanderbeg calls himshelf Epirote. But this is out of topic (or, is it?) so I let the readers to think on the complications of the equation Epirote = Albanian. --Euzen (talk) 09:01, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

I am trying to prepare a "List of sources for Albanian ethnicity of Vojsava Kastrioti" based on the list that you presented on this talk page. Taking in consideration what is said on the RSN I have to ask you for help. Thanks in advance for your clarifications. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 22:02, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) Kristo Frashëri: a) What is the name of the book he wrote that contain quoted text? b) Is there quote in which he himself claimed Albanian ethnicity of Vojsava? In the quote you provided he claim that some historians claim she is Slav and some other she is Albanian. Then he wrote what Musachi said. Please provide a quote with Frasheri's opinion about her ethnicity, if there is one.
 * 2) Gjon Muzaka. Can you provide information about the book written by Muzaka and quote of his claim that Vojsava was Albanian? You provided a link to work of Carl Hopf, not his work.
 * 3) Harry Hodgkinson. In the quote you provided Harry Hodgkinson says: "She [Voisava] seems to have belonged to the Musachi" but he do not claim she is Albanian, so this may be SYNTH. Bejtullah Dostani's note doesn't mention Vojsava at all. Are you able to provide details of the work and quote with claim that Vojsava was Albanian? Here is a link that contains information that David Abulafia only wrote the introduction to this book, not the text of the book with the claim that Vojsava was Albanian. The text of the book was written by Harry Hodgkinson, who was not historian. He was British intelligence officer famous for his Anti-Serbian attitude. If I am wrong, please provide a quote written by David Abulafia that Vojsava was Albanian?
 * 4) Fan Noli: In the provided link Noli wrote about what Hopf, Musachi and Barletius wrote about her. Will you please provide a quote with Noli's claim that she was Albanian?
 * 5) Prof. Kenneth Walters: He talks about Skanderbeg's ethnicity, not about Vojsava's. In order to avoid SYNTH will you please provide quote about Vojsava's ethnicity?
 * 6) Skanderbeg: The quote you provided does not mention Vojsava. Are you able to provide quote for Skanderbeg's claim of Vojsava's ethnicity?
 * Hopf's book is compilation of primary sources, not his own personal work. As for your other other arguments, I have no idea where you're getting at.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 03:13, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WW is copying outdated and extremely unreliable sources that have been found by Antidiskriminator like sources 3-4 which are outdated and racist old versions of Britannica, which nobody uses as a source. For example if someone wants to use their Negro article, he would have to deal withThe recognized leaders of the race are almost invariably persons of mixed blood, and the qualities which have made them leaders are derived certainly in part and perhaps mainly from their white ancestry ., so the verdict of reliability is on that. Btw in order to make them easier for me to review, could you strikethrough sources that I have already refuted like the SYNTH, the non-academic ones and the Britannica outdated versions?-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:09, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * You are not the only one to read and see this page. Write down the numbers of sources you find unusable. (Also comment in few words would be gold...) -- WhiteWriter speaks
 * If you removed the refuted ones or if you just moved them all to a subpage and linked it more people would comment. Now they have to deal with a huge list and when they move to the comments the first thing they can read is my refutal of britannica's old versions.
 * Harper which has been added twice(both 16 and 17) is one of those unreliable WP:TERTIARYs. His birthdate and birthplace are wrong and even Krujë or Kruja is spelled wrong as Kruge.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:26, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Source 2(Chamber's Enc) is one of those outdated sources that distinguish language families to Aryan and Semetic ones, while also advertizing products i.e not RS.-- — ZjarriRrethues —  talk 16:34, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Fixed double entry... Mistake. :) -- WhiteWriter speaks 18:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll skip older and refuted sources and move to source 12, which is a Serbian Milosevic-era publication of such academic reliability that the previous paragraph is part of an essay about Albanian terrorists in Kosovo, so the verdict is on that and the wrong attribution of Barleti's quotes to Venetian sources.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:18, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok, we will wait for someone else to write, and Gaius to send links to references presented, so we can check them. -- WhiteWriter speaks 20:55, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Some else did review them, so now they're again refuted.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 22:42, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


 * STOP with your misinformation and misinterpretation, i really cannot listen this any more. Majority of sources where NEVER presented in this article before this, that is FACT, and you may look trough page history. Its not again, as far as i know. I really dont want to beg you all the time to start acting constructively. How come all other editors can write in peaceful and normal way, without lies and constant misinformations? Just look Gaius Claudius Nero, i asked him, and he bring us here numerous sources that back up his claims. When i asked for sources, he gave us that. Thats the way to edit in good faith. Man, you are the ONLY editor in entire global wikipedia that make me step out of line. Please, try to have at least minimum good faith. I started this as i wanted to deal with this once and for all! As i wanted is to have good article that is truthful and neutral. Thats the reason i presented in this table all sources i could find, so we can have all of them in one place. I want to do good thing for this article! And, also, stop attacking me for my nationality! "Btw WW and 2 other Serbian editors are the users, who keep trying to add them to continue this ethnicity issue." Later you removed this, but my god, what is this? Did i ever pointed out loud your nationality? I dont care for that. That is harassment and direct rudeness, you know? "Trying to continue this ethnic issue"? I don't want to "continue this ethnicity issue", that is not the reason i started this! After this, we will know the best sources regarding this subject, and we will have most neutral solution. Article will be improved after this! We will have neutral good thing after this. We will have stable version, that we all find good. That is only possible way! We should talk about it, you should give me sources, diffs, propose solutions, new sentences... I am trying at my best. Stop attacking me. I fill like you just hate me being here, and want me to drop, and go away from this article this moment. I am sorry for this personal outburst, but really, i cannot believe. If you cannot edit in a friendly and peaceful way, don't edit at all! Sorry, the rest of you on this talk page. - WhiteWriter speaks 00:13, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
 * WW of course many of these sources have been refuted again. On every section you have been claiming that the majority of these sources were never presented, but this is a discussion started by you (30 June 2010), which includes the sources 1,2,7,8 and then when refuted you were told about the reliability of old britannica editions. Six to seven months later you started another discussion on RSN, which included sources 5,7,8. Gaius has already told that you added those sources. Your other britannica outdated editions also have been brought forward about 5 years ago. The Triballi=Serbs therefore Skanderbeg's mother was a Serb has also been refuted many times on this page, since most of the sources about the Triballians=Serbs have been added again. Even the few ones that hadn't been reviewed by other users, were refuted so now please stick to that. -- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 07:28, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

This is not a debate I have a stake in, so one comment, then out.
 * WW: Your list of sources looks impressive, but unfortunately I would largely agree with Nuujinn who reviewed them for you. On any topic (like this one) where there has been substantial subsequent controversy, century-old encyclopedias and other reference works will be distinctly out of date; and your more recent sources do seem to be journalistic or similar - not ones that I would trust on a controversial historical topic without supporting evidence. However, Nuujinn stated that he was not a professional historian, and I'm not either - there's some chance that a detailed look at your more modern sources would show that two or three of them might either be reliable themselves or are based on ones which are reliable.
 * ZZ: So far as I can see, while you are quite willing to criticise everyone else's proposed sources, you seem to be treating Fan Noli as totally reliable. Sorry, no - he was a trained historian, but his work is over sixty years old and he was in part writing as an Albanian deliberately trying to correct previous misrepresentations of Albanian history. Sometimes, probably without meaning to, he seems to have overcorrected. So I have as many misgivings about Fan Noli on this particular topic as about WW's sources.

So, please - for sourcing this, use more modern scholarly sources (preferably from the last 20 years). They are far more likely to represent general current understanding. PWilkinson (talk) 12:37, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd like to have modern scholarly sources, but even the modern reliable ones like Hickman or the ones that focus especially on Albanian-related history subjects just say go read Noli(even 2006 sources when mentioning the subject just say undoubtedly as the best modern work on the subject). Gaius Cladius Nero would be able to easily replace Noli with another source like the one co-written by David Abulafia of Cambridge, but the modern reliable sources use...Noli as a source too. His work on Skanderbeg is nowadays considered the same as Franz Babinger's work on Mehmed II to such an extent that it is considered comprehensive biography in English of Gjergj Kastrioti, the modern biography in English of the Albanian national hero George Castrioti.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 13:24, 9 April 2011 (UTC)


 * Clarification: Marin Barleti's quote about Vojsava: "nobilissimus Tribalorum" = " Serbian nobility, Noble Serbian ", in this quote the Tribalorum signifies an ethnonym (-orum), or 'demonym' in relation to the Serb people (undisputed), by earlier and contemporary sources. Her name Vojsava comes from the Slavic female name 'Vojislava' (undisputed), the "surname" attributed (Tripalda) is a corruption of historical sources, as it in fact says "Vojsava of the Serbs". Vojsava was from a noble family of Polog, which at the time was part of the Serbian realm. The fact that she is of Serb ethnic character has been greatly refuted by post-WorldWar2 Albanian historians, as several other facts regarding the non-Albanian history of Albania or regions inhabited by Albanians. This is evidently continued by ZjarriRrethues, who does not advance in any way in his anti-Serb sentiment, he has contributed more with empty claims at the talk page than any real contribution to the article. --Zoupan (talk) 15:51, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Calm down Zoupan. I suggest you to read WP:OR again. We couldn't possibly know the ethnicity of the persons if they are not mentioned specifically. I would like to add that Tetovo region and all Macedonia were part of Ottoman Empire since the end of 14th century and we possibly couldn't know whose person is that one. It could have been an Ottoman official from Anatolia or a converted Muslim from the Balkan area. We simply don't know exactly, that's why the sources are mentioned verbatim. Aigest (talk) 07:55, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Calm down? I cannot believe the ignorance from the Albanian editors, why is there a problem with Vojsava being Serb, it doesnt make Scanderbeg or his family less important to Albanian history. It is mentioned specifically, and no one can deny this, Barleti mentions it himself, so just stop. Vojsava, of "an Ottoman official from Anatolia"? Please, it's getting funnier for every reply.--Zoupan (talk) 16:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Zoupan please read WP:OR as Barleti never mentions that, so please don't attribute it to him.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 17:19, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, than we should change it to "Voisava, descendant of Triballian nobility"? Stop your ignorance, the Triballi-demonym for Serbs is undisputed (related to Teutons for Germans, Moesi for Bulgarians), so you should read OR, as you continue to deny sources. Again and again you prove your anti-Serbian feelings. --Zoupan (talk) 22:57, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Barleti never mentions a Triballi=Serbs i.e please don't attribute it to him(WP:SYNTH).-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 16:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
 * So you are saying that Barleti is mentioning a people that has been dead for 1,5 millenia? No, he mentions TRIBALORUM, as in respect of an ethnic group or people, and all contemporary writers (from 1000-1600 AD) that ever used the same ethnonym refer to the SERBS, this is clearly explained in several articles and talk pages with sources, furthermore, all these sources mentioning Serbian origin cannot be ignored, I am reverting to the sourced state. --Zoupan (talk) 18:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * Zoupan please read WP:SYNTH i.e don't attribute Triballi=Serbs to Barleti and also per all the RSNs and RfCs please don't revert again.-- — ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:55, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
 * It is undisputed. Stop. So you are meaning that he is in fact saying that Voisava was the daughter of a Triballian noble as in, she lived 1,5 millenia ago? The Triballi are extinct since the 3rd century. The 13th-15th century writers Pachymeres, Gregoras, Metochites, Kantakouzenos, Manuel II (1391–1425) / Mehmed II / Franciscan Franjo Glavinic (1586-1650) and a dozen more known figures all mention the Serbs as Triballians. She was the daughter of the Lord of Polog, which at the time was in the Serbian realm. There are no mentions of her being an Albanian besides the Muzaka chronicles (in this case kin to Muzaka), her supposed surname "Tripalda" is false and a later misinterpretation (also sourced). Do you want us to alter the article to: Voisava [...] Triballian...? Even Albanian writers acknowledge a Serbian origin: Fatos Lubonja, Olsi Jazexhi and . The supermajority point to the fact that Scanderbeg's mother was Serbian, and I understand the taboo. It still doesnt give you the right to dismiss facts. --Zoupan (talk) 00:55, 8 May 2011 (UTC)