Talk:Volkswagen Beetle/Archive 1

Hitler's design influence
RE:
 * Hitler himself played some role in the car's shape and, possibly, nickname. Dissatisfied with the initial design of the car's front end (and perhaps caught up in the 1930s' mania for all things streamlined) Hitler penned a more rounded shape on a napkin and handed it to Porsche with the instructions, "it should look like a beetle, you only have to look to nature to find out what true streamlining is." 

Does anybody know where this quote came from, please? I've done a Google search and only found it in the Wikipedia article or its copies.

I was under the impression that Porsche copied the Beetle's design from the Tatra T97, though its quite possible that Hitler's influence in the beetle's design has been air-brushed out of its history.

If the quote is unsubstantiated then it's probably a fabrication and should be removed. Conch Shell 09:34, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * There was also a series of rear engined Mercedes which looked awfully like that with a rear engine, the Mercedes 130... Hektor 22:38, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

hitler specifically stated it should look like a maikaefer - may beetle. i have the original german quote in my files at work. --Skyandfocus 12:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I recall from a program on the History Channel that Hitler had laid out the specifications for the vehicle that would become the Beetle (e.g. 2 adults and 3 children, 62mph, etc.) and derided Porsche's designs, saying it should look more "natural" like a beetle. While I'm sure he didn't actually design it himself, if the above were true then it would make sense that Porsche just used the Tatra's design since it was already around and fit Hitler's description. 24.13.34.230 01:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The Maikaefer was a car designed by Ganz. It seems that's what Hitler was talking about to Porsche. Ganz had already fled to Switzerland at the time his designed were stolen by Porsche.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rfsmit (talk • contribs) 14:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

The hitler.org link
This states Sitting at a restaurant table in Munich in the summer of 1932, Hitler designed the prototype for what would become the immensely successful Beetle design for Volkswagen.

Hitler didn't become chancellor until 1933 so judge this statement for yourself. Conch Shell 10:02, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

PS The drawing also shows a car with vertical headlights. These didn't become a feature until 1968, which also raises suspicions.

some drawings/paintings were faked by people such as kujar. i have verified original sketches for the kdf-wagen by hitler in my work files --Skyandfocus 12:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Another more comprehensive link

Another page where the pic is featured:. Although that doesn't prove anything. DirkvdM 10:03, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

this image is NOT verified original. --Skyandfocus 12:39, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

the 67 bug photo
the 67 has the correct headlights. this was the first year for these


 * Only in the USA - all other markets did not get the upright headlamps until the 1968 model year (August 1967 onwards).

The USA-spec 1967 Beetles had 12-volt electronics; an outdated book titled Volkswagens of the World featured post-1967 Beetles produced in Brasil and Australia which still had the 'bug-eyed' headlight housings. More information about Beetles produced outside Germany (e.g. Mexico, Brasil, South Africa) should be posted, especially for the differences between the European and locally-produced variants.

The supposed 1967 bug has the later blade bumpers first introduced in 1968.

>> '68 << bug photo I had a '67 and agree w statements above; the picture is that of a '68 (bumper) - it should be relabeled. A '67 pic is at http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z7052/default.aspx

discrepancy with 'volkswagen' page
the volkswagen page says that those who paid into the savings scheme had it honoured after the war, this article says that they didn't - which is right?81.102.41.34 19:01, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Both. The german page says:
 * After the war the savings in the value of over 280 million Reichsmark, which had been acquired by approximately 340,000 persons (of it 70,000 after 1939), lost their value. Many savers tried to enforce their claims with legal means. Volkswagen could however successfully prove that it had never arrived in possession of the saver funds, because these were on a blocked account of the bank of the German work. The processes ended 1961, under exclusion of a legal claim to grant with the offer of Volkswagens, the prevented customer a discount of 600 DM with the purchase of a vehicle. Who wanted to buy no new car or couldn't, was paid off only 100 DM.
 * 85.181.59.117 11:19, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Fuel Gauge
One of the neat things I remember about our '67 bug was that the mechanical fuel gauge operated even when the engine was off. From what I understand this was replaced by an electric gauge around 1967-68, so I suppose we had one of the last. --JeffryJohnston 20:04, 18 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Possibly one of the first as well; in the one run for a couple of years by my parenst - allegedly a '66 - the fuel gauge consisted of a luggage label tied to the knob of the ashtray! Mr Larrington (talk) 12:46, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Need help for picture
hey could someone check the picture on the page about the Sten gun. There is a picture about a french partisan with an american officer. We are trying to find what the car is. If anyone with an idea give me your opinion? paat 00:35, 25 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, it's definately not a Beetle. To me, it seems to have some similarities with Citroën 2CV and Citroën Traction Avant. What other Citroëns were there by that time? --Boivie 01:11, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Whatever it is, it could have been altered like those lights on the wheel housing, for military prupaces. Only somone who knows the car would be able to say if it was or wasnt. Nick carson 11:07, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Type 0
I deleted this:
 * "Further more, some rumors suggest that the Beetle was originally designed for conversion into a makeshift armored car in times of war. Its style resembles a tankette without a turret or armor. There is no documentation or real-world support for these claims, however it is possible that they surfaced based on the misunderstanding of how elements..."

It's baseless, & an encyclopedia is not a forum for repeating preposterous rumors. Trekphiler 09:55, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

confusing layout
Someone please move The origins of the car date back to 1925... under the pictures. --Espoo 15:46, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

How to classify the Beetle?
Is it a compact car, a subcompact car...? It's definately not a sedan, since it's a two-box car (I agree with the coupé label). My suggestion is to reference it primarly as an economy car, since that page also describes other inexpensive vehicles of the post war era. Any other suggestions? -- NaBUru38 01:55, 21 October 2006 (UTC) How about a rear-engined fastback, just like for instance the fiat 500 / 600 ?
 * A funny question :-)) - for me, and as a german. Whose parents first owned a FIAT 500 bought 1958, Next car then was a VW 1200 A, the "Standard" (simple) beetle of those years, bought 1965. We sat in the back of the FIAT 500 with four children, and every time it was fight. Then with the beetle: luxury pure in respect of space. So IMHO: the Beetle is no "subcompact" car (=FIAT 500?) . But a "compact car" - related to american cars. In Germany the beetle was a "normal" car until the early 70ies. The only bad disadvantage was a lack of luggage space, compared with other "normal" german cars like Opel Kadett, Ford etc. BerndB

VW calls is a "Sedan" in all advertising. It has a seperate trunk (though at the front), which is how a sedan is classified, correct? macman2626

I classify it as a good MPG car. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.29.143.252 (talk) 01:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Hitler designed the beetle?
The text says:

The origins of the car date back to 1925, when Adolf Hitler drew concepts of the Beetle in a Munchen restaurant.

whoever wrote this is close: hitler was madly designing his entire intended german nation during this period. he was certainly beginning his car travels for campaign purposes, which led to his autobahn policies. but the kdf was still gestating in 1925 --Skyandfocus 12:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I seriously doubt this as Hitler is not really well-known for his engineering capabilities. In addtion, the German article mentions no such event. Is there any source for this assertion?--88.64.172.180 20:48, 23 October 2006 (UTC)


 * I reverted the sentence to an earlier version as I suppose this was vandalism.--88.64.172.180 21:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

- ?The text should not be merged due to the serious historical difference between the two robertbowerman

as academic interested in this area, heartily agree --Skyandfocus 12:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I read somewhere that Hitler did draw a couple of very rough sketches of a streamlined bodyshell in outlining priorities for the "People's Car" project. I think I've even seen a photo of these sketches in one of the biographies.


 * Streamlining was new technology for autos in the '30s, having been first employed in the Chrysler Airflow. Of course, Hitler was not an engineer, but he did have some interest in automobiles, and as several of his biographers report, he was able to absorb surprising amounts of technical information about tanks, planes and other weapons. This does not make him the "designer" of the VW; he was basically its backer.


 * (Please understand, I am absolutely no admirer of Hitler in any way; it's just that I've read a lot about the Nazi phenomenon.)


 * Sca 16:47, 14 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Streamlinig was new technology which was derived from airplanes and blister zeppelines in the 20ies in Germany and first was employed for car building by german cars. Hitler war fascinated by the possibilites of new techniques in many respects. But his demand was a savvy car, or more likely he is said as having supported this demand. AFAIK he did no sketches for the body shape of the later beetle. But former he was a (bad) painter.. The later shape does not reflect an influence of a bad painter.. BerndB


 * unfortunately most of you are simply incorrect. hitler dictated the form to porsche, as noted below. only speer was trusted to work as a partner - everyone else was art directed by the chief reich artist. also, he was certainly not a bad painter, simply a workmanlike painter who belonged to the artistic working class. his major problems lay in his inability to incorporate human figures in his work - not surprising given his lack of emotional contact. his painting featured compentent renderings of architectural features, and he had a small but devoted following prior to his political activities. --Skyandfocus 12:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, got to throw my weight around as a university academic with a particular focus on hitler's aesthetics. hitler was directly responsible for the styling of the kdf-wagen; i have copies of verified sketches in his hand to prove it, which i can post here when back at my desk. hitler was intending to create a car culture - the autobahn were not built for the army, contrary to common myth - and this culture was to extoll the virtues of german identity through countryside touring. again, an aesthetic approach to fascist domination. it was common for hitler to involve himself heavily in design. he was a multi-disciplinary designer with an ability to transcend media types. not only did he design the swastika flag, but also the nazi banners, the uniforms, the opera houses, the planned cities, opera sets and more. he was artist/designer as total dictator building a state predicated on the aesthetic seduction of reason. check out the spotts on this topic for more --Skyandfocus 12:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

hi all. as i am delivering a lecture on hitler's aesthetics to my undergraduates later this month, i promise to come back and rewrite this article (and a few others besides). this article MUST NOT be merged with the beetle article, as the distinction between the periods is of sufficient interest to warrant a seperate entry. for those of you who wish to follow this area up, the fest book on speer is recommended, as is hitler and the power of aesthetics by spotts--Skyandfocus 12:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please do! ItsGrimUpNorth 18:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

How comes..
that - if given VW Beetle - there occur two additional wrong engine types in the right box (V4 & R5 machines which were brickbuilders´ homemade works but were never series versions), and if given Volkswagen Beetle only the right flat 4 engiens show?? 217.191.227.81

Model History pre translation
Nick Carson & me agreed to do something for the beetle article. Here we are / 1st with a pre translation of the model history of the german featured article. Regards BerndB

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nick_carson#Model_history

What can be done with the VW Beetle
Sure wish some of these adaptations could be used as illustrations here. http://thrillingwonder.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-can-be-done-with-vw-beetle.html - Bevo 22:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

abbey road cover?
one of most famous ww beetle was the car on the front side of the beatles abbey road's album... we may insert that photo on this article...

Fair use rationale for Image:Tatra-t97-small.JPG
Image:Tatra-t97-small.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:15, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Merged from Kdf-Wagen
I merged the info from Kdf-Wagen here--there wasn't much there. These two externals links were on that page, I have no idea if they're useful but saw the "no more links" note on the page so am putting them here: Tocharianne 03:03, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
 * http://www.kdf-wagen.de/main/main.php -- a dedicated KdF-Wagen website
 * http://oldcarandtruckpictures.com/Volkswagen/ -- a Pictorial history of the VW Beetle

The many names
Is it truly necessary to list the names of the beetle in 2 places: Under the photo and at the bottom of the page. Lordless 12:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I've now cut out the duplication and sorted the list into alphabetical order by country or language.Mighty Antar 10:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Translation
The caption under the 1939 advertisement is not a translation, but a transliteration. If we're using English words, then it should read "Put aside five marks a week - if you want to ride in your own car!"--Rfsmit (talk) 14:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Why was there never a diesel Beetle?
Considering this car was aimed mainly at the European market, I find it unusual that the car was never offered with a diesel engine.Davez621 (talk) 08:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Apart from taxi drivers, Diesel cars didn´t catch on with the general public in Europe until the 1980s, when the Beetle was on its way to being phased out. --328cia (talk) 12:22, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Käfer
What's with "Kafer is an Australian family name"? Why on Earth is that in here?

And shouldn't Käfer (like all nouns in German, capitalized) be high the list of names in varous countries for the VW Beetle? Seems glaringly odd to omit the name from its country of origin. Sca (talk) 19:13, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Béla Barényi
There have been a few reverts regarding Béla Barényi's role in the development of the Beetle. One reason is the tone of the submitted edit. The other reason is that Barényi's exact role in the design of the Beetle is not clear. This reference (Classique car library) mentions he anticipated design elements of the Beetle. This Béla Barényi biography is more assertive about his role in the development of the Beetle. Upon clearing his connection to the Beetle a mention can be made in the article about Barényi's role in the design of the Beetle. Dr.K. (talk) 03:03, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

."...complete or partial pastoralization...". Musings on accessibility of wiki-information
Am I the only one who had to look up pastoralization in the dictionary? It's a very pretty word, but I don't know if it's a word that features too much across the nations' breakfast tables. And while I HATE dumbing down, I also think wikipedia's core brief is compromised if it uses words that few readers understand - that is, where better understood synonyms are available. How would whoever introduced the word here feel about substituting 'de-industrialization'? It's an ugly word, and my firefox spell checker doesn't seem to care for the way I spelled it here. But I think its meaning will be apparent to most readers. OR do the two words mean different things? Thoughts? Regards Charles01 (talk) 07:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

As an after thought, my mother tongue is British-English. Maybe if I'd spent more time in the States, I'd have come across more pastoralization? Clearly, if that were the case, my 'take' on the word would need to be considered in that context.

Volkswagen was called Volkswagen… before 1945
I’ve reading in articles in Wikipedia that the “Volkswagen” was just called this way after World War II — before that, the Beetle were known only as the “Kdf-Wagen”. But it seems that’s not true, since doing a search for “Volkswagen” in the immense TIME Mag Archives I found this article from 1937:

Just Folks - Monday, Mar. 01, 1937

Name of Adolf Hitler's personal paper is Völkischer Beobachter which might be translated "Folksy Observer," and one of his pet projects is the Volkswagen or "Folksy Automobile." Last week Der Führer opened the 11h annual Berlin Auto Show with a spectacular review of 10,000 Nazis. Through cleared Berlin streets the greatest German racing drivers roared with flame-belching exhausts and brakes screaming as they took street corners in breakneck "skid-turns."

MaGioZal (talk) 02:40, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Volkswagen and Ganz
Interesting to see that Volkswagen/Tatra history is mentioned here (correctly) but no mention of the Ganz story. He designed for Standard a car around 1925 if memory serves right, which had an engine in the back, a central beam with sidegurders like the beetle and a rounded shape. Wasn't Ganz paid as well a compensation? Also the above mentioned Hungarian is not mentioned in the text. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.134.94.21 (talk) 11:44, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
 * A new book's come out elaborating on the Ganz story, and I've incorporated it into the article: "Hitler stole Beetle design from a Jew."—Biosketch (talk) 15:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)
 * Quite a tenuous claim, IMHO. Ganz's Maikäfer was a tiny car with a single-cylinder, water-cooled engine mounted forward of the rear axle and a chain drive. His later Standard Superior was also smaller than a Beetle, mid-engined, and had suspension quite different to the Beetle. Regards, Letdorf (talk) 21:35, 16 January 2012 (UTC).
 * Schilperoord's proposal's received attention from reliable sources, so it should be in the article somewhere, and the edit yesterday hasn't given it undue weight. That being said, it goes without saying that editors are welcome to suggest other ways of including the information.—Biosketch (talk) 09:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Latest reversions to major uncited edits
I reverted twice now the edits by user:Ganz-volkswagen because they are uncited and a major change to the article. Please share your thoughts here. Thank you. Dr.K. (talk) 14:31, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the Ganz story is very well worth worth telling.  I'm not convinced that it belongs here in the level of detail that our other contributor gave it, however.   And I think it's a pity this discussion didn't take place BEFORE you and he started this wiki tennis game.


 * I do not like history told backwards.  In that sense, there are several engineers and manufacturers with a good claim to have inspired the Volkswagen Beetle before F Porsche met A Hitler.   But (again) I am not sure they belong in the Beetle's own entry.   If they get their own wiki-entries elsewhere, I certainly think the 'pre-Volkswagens' deserve a STRONG MENTION (weird phrase, but I hope you understand me) here, with links to their own more detailed entries.


 * Although I share your reservations about the way this text appears here, I do not agree your stated reasons.  Your stated objection that the extra text is uncited would be best (and more politely - at least in the short term) addressed simply by entering the appropriate  flag after those bits of text in most urgent need of support.   It's quite likely that a contributor can enter appropriate source notes if we give him a chance!   Nor do I think that there is anything intrinsically wrong about entering a major change to the entry.   Any popular entry - with many enthusiastic readers and contributors - risks becoming a medley of styles and grammatical structures.   I don't see a way round that.   There are plenty of short and consistently structured entries on other cars, but they tend to be entries that relatively few people either (1) read or (2) feel moved to improve!


 * Like you, I'll be interested to see if anyone else has a view to offer on this.  Regards  Charles01 (talk) 15:28, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your response. I agree with the bulk and general direction of your comments save for the "polite" remark about allowing the edits to stand and tagging them instead. I disagree. Your approach works best with small edits. If you have a small edit I understand your point about being polite and allowing it and adding a tag. However in this case the edits were huge. They radically altered the whole history of the article and they had no citations to support any of these assertions. I followed proper WP:BRD policy by being bold, reverting and discussing these drastic changes. I also followed ROWN and provided helpful and friendly summaries explaining my reversions. If I allowed them to stand the article would have been changed drastically without consensus against Wikipedia policy WP:CON and even if I tagged the huge edit that would render large sections of the article unreadable. While I am a fan of being polite and being polite is always nice, controversial and uncited big edits to articles are best handled by policies which dictate our behaviour. Being polite is nice but policy is better. So I just followed these policies. Regards. Dr.K. (talk) 15:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
 * This article is also very visible and of high importance in the history of the automobile. All the more reason to be careful of huge uncited alterations.--Dr.K. (talk) 16:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

External links list update
TheGoldenBug.com is website dedicated to VW enthusiasts. Over 4,000+ pictures, tech and history articles, database with worldwide business, clubs, shows and website listings etc. Lots of useful info. It should be included into external links section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.117.194.34 (talk) 22:41, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

New Beetle
I think this section is informative, but not in great enough detail. Maybe mention of its consumer base, popularity, influence on popular culture, could all be referenced. Voice99 (talk) 19:53, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"In Britain, VW never used the name Beetle officially"
This statement is incorrect - this 1971 UK brochure uses "Beetle" and "Super Beetle" throughout, although the individual variants are still referred to as the VW 1200, VW 1300 and VW 1302. Letdorf (talk) 23:58, 9 January 2010 (UTC).

Superbeetle
I deleted
 * "The world record for fastest and quickest four cylinder 1/4 mile drag vehicle is held by a Type 1 based engine built and maintained by vwparadise of San Marcos California. Its official run is 6.60 @ 203.94 mph quarter-mile although unofficially the quickest & fastest has been a 6.53 at 209.98 mph. "

as OT to the Type 1, since it describes a specialist drag racer & highly modified powerplant. If you think it's merited, add it here, instead. TREKphiler  any time you're ready, Uhura  13:01, 9 February 2010 (UTC)

Propaganda?
I object to the pictures showing the Volks Wagen during the Nazi era being described as "propaganda", it does not fall into the definition of propaganda, and is mere commercial material. Unfortunately due to the Western media slap tagging anything related to the Nazi party as "propaganda", alot of material that is innocent is being used to defame and cast an "evil" shadow on an issue which requires NPOV. We could go through all the pictures and material in relation to the USA and classify most of them as propaganda if the same bent definition used on the pictures in this article was applied. Calling the pictures "propaganda" is a clear violation of wikipedia NPOV rules and a better, non-biased description should be provided. --94.195.194.144 (talk) 14:16, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

A new title
According the the History Channel the Volkswagen has become "The car of the Century" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.93.199.154 (talk) 15:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Missing engine info.
Narrative of engine development ends with the (U.S.-spec.) '67's 1500. It was succeeded a couple years later by the 1600, then the 1600 dual-port. See this. Sca (talk) 14:01, 20 January 2015 (UTC)

I significantly improved 1953-1969 today. I'll work on 1970-beyond soon and will address the 1600cc engine and other changes. Expandinglight5 (talk) 01:00, 25 July 2015 (UTC)