Talk:Volkswagen Routan

Expansion and revision of article
I've just made the first of what should be a few more changes to this page. Let me state first that VW is a client of my employer; I am very familiar with WP:COI and believe I can edit this page and follow the guidelines. While I don't believe any of my changes will be controversial I also recognize that others may see things differently, and I am more than happy to discuss any of my edits. Other plans for this page include adding citations for two sentences marked "" and details on the differences between the Chrysler and VW models. NMS Bill (talk) 21:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

For starters, the Routan is essentially a rebadge of the Chrysler minivans, differing in body paneling and feature content -- see cited sources. Remember it isn't simply a matter of presenting info that isn't controversial... Wikipedia is a place to present verifiable information = information + source of information. Each of us that supplies information needs to supply reputable, independent sources to give credence to the information we supply. Have fun! 842U (talk) 22:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hello, 842U. I think the current version of the article may be confusing to lay readers, and would like to propose a different order. This is closer to the original version, before either of us contributed, but also includes some of the points we have both added. Here's the way I'd put it:


 * The Volkswagen Routan is a seven-seat minivan developed specifically for the North American market. It is based on Chrysler's RT platform, which it shares with the Dodge Grand Caravan and the Chrysler Town and Country. The Routan was officially unveiled at the 2008 Chicago Auto Show and went on sale in the United States in September 2008.


 * As you can see, I certainly agree that the Routan is based on pre-existing Chrysler/Dodge models (and you may notice I added language to this effect in the second section). However, I feel pretty strongly that the first important detail should be that it is a minivan. Let me know what you think. NMS Bill (talk) 23:07, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

What part do you feel is confusing to the layreader? I agree the Routan's most salient aspect is that it's a minivan. It's more salient aspect however is that it is a slightly revised variant of the Chrysler minivans -- rather than a minivan "developed for the North American market." Very clearly, the Routan would not exist primarily were it not a derivation of the Chrysler minivans. 842U (talk) 10:09, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Hey, saw you cleaned up the page a bit. Looks like good work, although I still have a couple issues. Mostly that is with the claim that it is "rebadged" leading the article. This is a matter of opinion, and should be addressed in the body of the text rather than asserted outright in the intro. According to WP:NPOV, opinions should be attributed to outside sources, not Wikipedia.


 * With due respect, per WP:RS and WP:BURDEN your citations do not at this time support calling it a rebadge. In order: the Autoblog post was a early reaction on the day it was unveiled; the About.com story was likewise was an early preview, not a definitive statement; MotorTrend calls it "plenty" different; Road and Track is another early preview; and MyRide is not an independent news source -- it's owned by AutoBytel, an auto classifieds website.


 * To my point that it is much more than a simple rebadge I'll point to post-launch test drive reviews from Kelley Blue Book and Canada.com.


 * On a secondary point, I think the Windsor Assembly bit is redundant in the opening paragraph and is the kind of detail better suited for the Overview section. Do you have any guideline-based objection to my above-proposed intro section? NMS Bill (talk) 23:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

A mention of Windsor Assembly in the introduction wouldn't be redundant &mdash; it occurs first in the article. Any other instance would be the redundancy.

Also, it's a strange statement to suggest that the Routan was "designed specifically for" the North American market &mdash; without a single citation &mdash; at odds with the reality that Volkswagen currently markets the vehicle in Central America as well as North America &mdash; effectively at the vehicles introduction. 842U (talk) 01:58, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

The Routan: Badge Engineered
The VW Routan is the very definition of badge engineering: that it is heavily based on the Chrysler Minivans is perhaps it's most salient quality. As such, the badge engineering is identified in the intro &mdash; neither minimized nor exaggerated.

My employer isn't under contract to VW, and these are not opinions: the Routan is manufactured in the same plant, by the same workers as the Chrysler minivans, and borrows the it's engineering platform from the Chrysler minivans, including but not limited to: it's bodywork aside from some (but not all) of its cosmetics, all the internals of its bodywork, all the safety feature specifications, interior features such as the second row underseat compartments, the power folding third row seating and the Joybox audio/navigation system (aka Mygig), and finally, it's entire drivetrain, including both engines and the single transmission.

This is badge engineering... and the articles supports this by including the references cited in the introduction.

Still need more?


 * Los Angeles Times' Pulizter-Prize-winning auto-pundit Dan Neil wrote in the article VW Routan: Mediocre, barely, "But the Routan is such a shallow and insincere badge job -- so screamingly a Chrysler T&C, right down to the slack, wobbly feel in the gearshift, so lacking in the wit and nuance that has made recent VWs such a kick -- that it almost seems like corporate sabotage."
 * Topspeed named the Routan one of the Top Ten Worst Badge Engineering Jobs, noting that "Just because Chrysler was still in the Mercedes family at the time the latest Dodge Caravan was developed, does not mean VW can justly call the cars “German Engineered” in its commercials."
 * Edmunds wrote here: "Enter the 2009 VW Routan, a seven-passenger minivan that looks like, well, just another minivan. Especially a Chrysler minivan, despite VW's press puffery about how the vehicle features "European sensibilities in design, fit and finish and handling characteristics. Aside from the VW grille and badging, you'd be hard-pressed to tell the Routan apart from its American cousins from most angles, inside or out."
 * Autoweek described the Routan this way: "VW's restyled version of the newest-generation Chrysler minivan, introduced last year."
 * Automobile Magazine called the Routan: "a reclothed and mildly retuned Chrysler Town & Country"
 * Road and Track said of the Routan: "it's not a micro-bus, instead it's a re-skin of a Chrysler."
 * Car and Driver said here about the Routan: "VW reps talk around the C-word when discussing the Routan, but the Routan is built on a Chrysler platform in a Chrysler plant by people and bots who used to build Chryslers in their day jobs but now assemble Chryslers and Volkswagens. It gets VW-ish sheetmetal and a dedicated interior and rides on an exclusive suspension, but those who expect the Routan to be more Chrysler than Volkswagen are not too wide off the mark."
 * The Car Connection calls the Routan: "Essentially a reworked and rebadged Dodge Grand Caravan."
 * Leftlane.com said here of the Routan: "Though there’s no mention of Chrysler in VW’s sales literature, their presentations at the recent press introduction at Fort Baker didn’t try to gloss over the fact that the Routan is a direct derivative of the Chrysler Town & Country and is manufactured in the Chrysler plant in Windsor, Ontario, Canada."
 * The Truth About Cars.com said about the Routan: "They’ve Veedubbed the Dodge, but it’s still a Dodge."
 * Trucktrend said of the Routan: "Mask up the front and remove a few lights, however, and what you're left with -- at least on the outside -- is pure T&C (Town and Country)."
 * MSN said of the Routan: "Based on the Chrysler Town & Country/ Dodge Grand Caravan, the 2009 Routan is a seven-passenger minivan with a VW-quality interior, but without some of the innovations that set Chrysler products apart."
 * The Washington Examiner, in an article titled 2009 Volkswagen Routan, a stylish but overpriced version of the Dodge Grand Caravan said that "advertising for the new Volkswagen Routan minivan boasts of its German engineering, but don’t be fooled; it’s a Chrysler under the skin, mechanical twin to the Town & Country and the Dodge Grand Caravan." Adding this: "Volkswagen’s repeated references to the “German-engineered” Routan squeaks through the Pinocchio test only on a technicality: that Chrysler was German-owned while the Grand Caravan was developed."
 * Boston.com, in an article titled Volkswagen Routan: The also-ran van, said "beyond the attractive styling and real aluminum trim on the doors, there's little to convince us the Routan is a Volkswagen. The brand confusion can be seen at night, where switchgear illuminates in VW's bright red and the instrument cluster stays a Chrysler light blue. Unless you find a good deal, there's little reason to prefer a Routan over the 2011 Grand Caravan or Chrysler Town & Country."

Studying these references shows that the differences between the Routan and the Chrysler minivans are myriad small items including seat bolsters, carpet, bump spring rates, shock and power steering tuning &mdash; as well as the revisions to styling, feature content and suspension tuning mentioned in the introduction of the article.842U (talk) 01:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Reorganizing lead section
I see you've kept on adding to the article over the past week, and most of it looks good. As to your reply, the citations you have provided below certainly demonstrate to my satisfaction that the term "badge engineering" is relevant to the Routan.

However, my real problem at this point is that the article leads with a term from automotive jargon, whereas WP:JARGON advises that "words and phrases used as jargon by any profession or group should usually be avoided or explained." WP:LEAD also says the first sentence ''should begin with a short declarative sentence, answering two questions for the nonspecialist reader: "What (or who) is the subject?" and "Why is this subject notable?"'' Likewise, the stacking of five citations is unsightly over a point that I no longer believe is contested. For that reason I suggest rephrasing the lead. It now says:


 * The Volkswagen Routan is a rebadged variant    of the Chrysler RT platform seven-seat minivan...

I propose changing this to:


 * The Volkswagen Routan is a seven-seat minivan based on the Chrysler RT platform, marketed in North America by Volkswagen and manufactured at Chrysler's Windsor Assembly plant.

This is easier for someone who is not a car expert (and I include myself in that group) to understand, and it brings the article into closer compliance with two additional points from WP:LEAD. The first, from Provide an accessible overview: Consideration should be given to creating interest in reading the whole article.

I think this proposed version of the sentence describes the vehicle adequately, and of four clauses, two concern Chrysler's contribution to the vehicle, which should be explained in a bit more detail later in the article. And so the second relevant suggestion from WP:LEAD regarding Relative emphasis: Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article...

For that reason, I suggest that the subsequent dependent clause "with revised styling, content features, and suspension tuning from the fifth generation Dodge Grand Caravan and Chrysler Town & Country" as well as a slightly reworded version of the two paragraphs following be moved into the body of the article. This is supported also by Length from WP:LEAD, which suggests an article of this length should have just one or two opening paragraphs.

I would also support a longer section in the main body, probably under Overview, dealing with the various opinions about the vehicle's originality or lack thereof, using citations from our examples listed above. There are certainly differing views of how much different this vehicle is from the Chrysler vans than other badge engineered vehicles are from the originals, and I think you would agree this aspect should be adequately discussed.

In the meantime though, let me know what you think of the above changes. Looking forward to your response. NMS Bill (talk) 22:34, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Keeping the current lead section
Being perhaps the it's most salient attribute, the fact that the Routan is the result of badge engineering belongs front and center in the article: in the first or second sentence. Clearly, from the citations I've shown, relegating this fact to another place in the article is less than forthright. VW's own willingness to overlook, mitigate, or minimize the Routan's origins has, as you can see, caused quite some consternation in the motoring press.

Are you suggesting that the term badge engineering is jargon? How do you get this? The New York Times uses the term freely (e.g., here and here). The Los Angeles Times uses the term freely (e.g. here or here). Either way, if someone does not understand the widely used, they can always click on the link.

Your suggestions for the article center on the issue of the Routan's badge engineering, and whether it belongs up front in the article... your suggestions also seem to mirror Volkswagen's own thinly veiled suggestions that the Routan is "German engineered," and a reticence to present the Routan for what it is.

Perhaps this is difficult for you to grasp given your admitted conflict of interest, as the employee of a subcontractor to VW. I can't imagine this would be good PR for VW if it were known that an employee of a subcontractor was editing one of their articles to minimize what the motoring press have clearly identified in no uncertain terms as a major aspect of the Routan.

Either way, the fact that the Routan is badge engineered and the extent of the styling and content revisions from the Chrysler twins... belong right where they are, in the first paragraph of the article. Perhaps we can further develop the subject of the Routan's badge engineering in it's own article section.

There appear to be plenty of sources. Here's another: The New York Times reporting that with the Routan, German Engineers Fail the Paternity Test.

Brand loyalists love VW, at least in part, because of this authenticity. And here comes a minivan — a minivan! — draped in the mantle of deceit. It’s enough to make you laser off your VW ankle tattoo... This could have been the Volkswagen of minivans; instead it’s the Chrysler of VWs. 842U (talk) 00:01, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

a nice, simple, well written article. I looked over it thoroughly, and while these differ for Chry Corp vehicles cosmetically, and with differing fabric choices, there isn't much else that needs to be said, given that they are essentially the same vehicle (VWs even have "Mopar" logos on their window glass". The differences are limited to those separating a Dodge Caravan from say...a Chrysler Town & Country. A few cosmetic features and available options separate the two, that's about it (and that's not necessarily a bad thing in my opinion). Good work on this one ppl Jon the dodgeboy (talk) 03:38, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Merging the Chrysler minivan articles
Every different model of Chrysler minivan has it's own article, even when the only differences between the two is just trim and options, each with their content forked from each other with varying quality. I proposed last year that all these articles be merged into a central article named Chrysler minivans with a specific article for each generation, which I created. However my efforts were blocked and reverted, so in the end, the minivans just now have even more redundant articles! I created a request for merge on the Dodge Caravan page which has gained unanimous support. Here is what I propose: 1. Chrysler minivans being the parent article to offshoot articles for each generation: Chrysler minivans (S), Chrysler minivans (AS), Chrysler minivans (NS), Chrysler minivans (RS), Chrysler minivans (RT) and Chrysler Pacifica (RU). The Pacifica article can be named "Pacifica" since that's the only name it's sold under worldwide. 2. Dodge Caravan and Chrysler Voyager will be merged into the Chrysler minivans article. 3. Chrysler Town & Country (1941–1988) should be moved to just "Chrysler Town & Country", and that article's minivan content should be condensed into a section that links to the Chrysler minivans article. 4. Plymouth Voyager should be reduced to a short disambiguation article noting the the Plymouth Voyager nameplate has been both used as a full size van that is a rebadged Dodge Tradesman, which links to the Tradesman article, and then links to the generation of Chrysler minivans which were sold as the Plymouth Voyager: Chrysler minivans (S), Chrysler minivans (AS) and Chrysler minivans (NS). 5. Volkswagen Routan is merged into Chrysler minivans (RT), which already has a dedicated section to the Routan which is most of the main Routan's article content forked and condensed. 6. Lancia Voyager is merged into Chrysler minivans (RT). 7. Chrysler TEVan is merged into Chrysler minivans (AS).

All of these article's non-redundant content has already been collected into the articles about the respective generations. All we really have to do is merge them together. Reattacollector (talk) 23:14, 9 April 2018 (UTC)