Talk:Vonda Phelps

Vonda Phelps Godby 1922 -1972
This page from Findagrave has a Vonda Phelps born in 1922 which I am almost certain is the Vonda Phelps in this article. The page has links to birth, death, divorce and marriage certificates which wold probably confirm it is the same person. If someone has access to archives.com could they check? Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ (Talk Contribs) 03:11, 14 May 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think that they are the same person. If this were true, then Vonda would have been two years old when she performed in the 1924 play. It said that her routine was "her original creation and demonstrated her unique personality" so I think that would be beyond the creative capabilities of a two year old. With this in mind, I'm assuming that Vonda was born sometime before 1920. Lemunz (talk) 05:52, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * On the other hand the description for her first film has her playing "a baby" in 1922. A bit of a stretch if she were aged 6 or 7. DerbyCountyinNZ  (Talk Contribs) 06:08, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I was thinking the same thing until I read that when she played in "The Jungle Goddess" that same year, she played "Betty", a little girl. I guess someone would have to see the movies to truly tell. Lemunz (talk) 06:13, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * My thoughts exactly! DerbyCountyinNZ  (Talk Contribs) 06:21, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Mystery solved?
The Vonda Phelps mentioned above almost certainly isn't the silent film actress: her first mention in print was in 1921, before the woman above was born. I believe the real Vonda Phelps was this woman. Yes, there's an extra "A" at the beginning of the name, but I think it's reasonable that advertisers would drop it to make it quicker to announce. If I'm correct about this, then I've located her living in the LA area in the 1920, 1930, and 1940 censuses. Most notably, the 1940 census lists her occupation as actress. 24.186.39.143 (talk) 06:55, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I think we need a bit more. First of all, we need to confirm that Vonda Phelps really was born on April 19, 1915. Secondly, we need to confirm that she either didn't marry or still kept her own last name instead of her husband's. Thirdly, the actress Vonda Phelps only made two movies in 1922. It says in the article that she was still a public figure until the late 1920s. But what was she doing afterwards? Was she a stage actress? If not, would she really be listed as an actress in the 1940 census if she wasn't active in that business? It's strange how fast and easily IMDb accepted this "new info". It's all just speculation at this point.  O s c a r L  23:13, 21 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The newspapers listed in the references may have some more information that was left out. This very article implies that the last one covered her birthday party, but the lack of information doesn't let us narrow down her date of birth to anything more specific than "probably April". 69.118.188.115 (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
 * Great job finding "Avonda Phelps" there are even articles from her hometown paper under her birth name talking about her career. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:04, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Some other films?
I found a few references to Vonda Phelps which suggest that she appeared in more films than the few that are already listed. First off, there's a casting directory, complete with a photograph, which seems to list some films she appeared in. Besides The Jungle Goddess, it lists three more films: Wilderness, about which I can find nothing further; Strange Idols, a Dustin Farnum flick; and The Trail Rider. An archive of a film industry magazine mentions Phelps twice. The first says she is working on a different Dustin Farnum movie, Vows Made and Broken, but this is literally the only book on the internet that mentions this film. The second is an advertisement with another photo of her, this time for Strange Idols. 69.118.188.115 (talk) 18:13, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Possibly helpful links
According to these links, an individual named Avonda Maude Phelps was born on april 19, 1915, lived at "91042 Tujunga, Los Angeles, California, USA" and died on September 2, 2004. According to an Ancestry.com search, there is a record within the "U.S., Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007" which has an Avonda Phelps born in Shreveport, LA and dying in 2004. Ancestry.com also has two matches within the U.S censuses of 1920 and 1930, each saying that Avonda Maude Phelps, born c. 1916 in Lousiana, was living in Las Angeles at the time those censuses were conducted. There is another link to the Social Security Death Index that gives the same info and reveals her SSN. Would any of these links be considered reliable enough to use in order to confirm a death date?
 * I believe these come under Biographies of living persons: "Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth,..."
 * So unless there is a policy which overrides this to establish a person's date of death, I guess we keep looking for something which passes RS. DerbyCountyinNZ  (Talk Contribs) 05:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Dead people do not have BLP protection, this policy is to not dox people's birthdays, who may not want them made public. If they give out their birthdays in IMDB or an interview we can use it. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:29, 17 December 2016 (UTC)
 * I love this policy. That means my grandpa, who died in 1977, is actually still alive, since no internet records exist of his obituary. Bkatcher (talk) 13:22, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * What we do not know is that the Vonda Phelps mentioned in this article was ever named Avonda Maude Phelps, or if that person coincidentally had a similar name and year of birth. Consequently, we cannot attribute any of the characteristics of Avonda M. Phelps to Vonda Phelps.  General Ization   Talk   22:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * While it is true that we cannot definitively prove that these two are the same right now, it is also important to know that without any documentation on her background outside of her brief career, it's possible that "Vonda" is just a stage name. If Avonda were in fact Vonda, then that would also place her in LA during the times that the newspaper articles were being written about her. Circumstantial but interesting nonetheless. Lemunz (talk) 23:16, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Yup, that is her as "Avonda". A few articles in the Los Angeles Times and her hometown paper in Shreveport, Louisiana talking about her career under that name. Whoever first made the connection to "Avonda" was brilliant. Vonda Phelps Godby (1922-1972) is way off base. Several articles from the 1920s list our Vonda's age, giving a 1915 birth. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 06:14, 17 December 2016 (UTC)

Family members
I tracked down a daughter and invited them to catch any mistakes. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:12, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Great job and kudos to all your work so far on this article. I had been trying for ages to find something but it's no wonder I didn't get anywhere as I was searching for death info related to 1972 due to the fact that she was previously mismatched with another woman of the same name who died much earlier. I suppose it's a long shot but might be worth asking Phelps' daughter about Virginia Marshall. Another actress of the same period who has faded into the unknown. I note that one of the article mentions she attended her birthday party. Perhaps they remained friends? Any minor details could help us uncover her Social Security profile because "Virginia Marshall" by itself isn't specific enough right now and I can't find anything concrete. Cheers --Jkaharper (talk) 03:14, 21 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Do you have an WP:OTRS request in the works for this? Because right now this looks like a serious violation of WP:BLP (and WP:BLPPRIMARY), WP:V, and WP:OR. Canadian   Paul  16:30, 22 December 2016 (UTC)
 * Dead people do not have BLP rights, so I do not have a clue what you are referring to, so please be specific. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 03:20, 2 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure, I can clarify. I do not see any verifiable or reliable evidence that she is deceased, therefore the article is covered under WP:BLP. I see a claim that you contacted the daughter and while I can assume good faith, that does not trump Wikipedia's core policies. I can neither verify a) that you actually contacted anyone or if you did that b) that person was indeed who they claimed to be. Therefore the material that has been added fails WP:V and I am challenging it on that basis, irrespective of my belief of its veracity. The only supporting citation I see in the article is #2, which makes an unverifiable claim based off of primary sources (how can we verify that the person listed in those records is indeed the subject of the article?), which makes it an exercise of original research and a violation of WP:BLPPRIMARY. I was wondering, therefore, if you submitted this through the WP:OTRS system for their verification, as this would be an acceptable method of including the information. 19:45, 3 January 2017 (UTC)


 * WP:PRIMARY reads: "Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them." I don't see misuse of the Social Security Death Index or the California Death Index which lists the name of her parents. I see the SSDI used as a reference in over 1,000 articles for birth and death dates. If you think it should never be used, work to get it blacklisted. All the primary documents, the census and death indexes, matchup for birth dates and death dates and the name of her parents. There are newspaper articles using her birth name and the census lists her as an actress, so that isn't an issue either. Her birth year matches her age at the date the articles were published. Math is not original research. You cannot prove a negative but in genealogy we have a rule, if you think we have the wrong person, then find a reliable document that shows that this person is wrongly assigned. Show me an obituary for this doppelgänger with the same name, and same birthdate, and same birth location, and same parents, that shows she was not an actress and dancer. I can't prove aliens do not exist, but if you show me an alien creature, then you have proved they do exist, and I was wrong. And if you think her daughter is lying when she corrected her grandfather's name when she edited the article, call her out as a liar, and I will restore the misspelling. In the end Occam's razor wins out. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 00:35, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Your response does not a) address my concerns about verifiability, b) make any reference to Wikipedia policy or c) even answer my direct question about whether or not you submitted this WP:OTRS. As such, I’m not convinced that these edits are appropriate, so I’m going to seek a third opinion at WP:BLPN. I’ll link the thread on the talk page in case you want to comment. Canadian   Paul  19:54, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * BLPN discussion link. Canadian   Paul  19:56, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * I addressed your valid concerns completely. I haven't a clue why I would use an WP:OTRS. And I addressed policy, in that BLP concerns are not used for dead people, I am not doxing a living person with primary sources. I am not sure your concerns can ever be addressed to your satisfaction. Show me the evidence that you have that Avonda's doppelgänger exists, or that the Avonda in the article is still alive. You need to show me an extraordinary document to back up your extraordinary claim that she is still alive, despite a half dozen documents showing she is dead. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:39, 9 January 2017 (UTC)
 * What was the consensus in the end? I can't find the discussion. --Jkaharper (talk) 19:00, 2 February 2017 (UTC)