Talk:Vor of Barrayar

Titles Clarification
Clarification on titles would be of value. It seems to be that barring their being a count of a family name, the senior male member is known as Lord Vor(name). In the case the family includes a count, the Lord is the the heir to the senior male member. Lower members seem to be known simply as Lord (First Name) -- such as Lord Carl and Lord Mark.

Women only bear titles of Countess Vor(name) or Lady Vor(name) by virtue of marriage. The wife of Count Vor(name) is titled Countess Vor(name) and the wife of Lord Vor(name) is titled Lady Vor(name). This can be seen with Countess Vorkosigan and Lady Vorpatril (note: it is unclear how dowager status is handled, but from the example of the Vorpatril's, it appears that when Ivan marries both his wife and mother will be titled Lady Vorpatril, with perhaps some use of the term dowager. This seems consistent with an idea that one can gain status, but not lose it.)

Vor women who are not married to a Count or Lord appear to all be titled Lady (First Name). As a point of clarification, the First Name referenced is the woman's own name rather than her that of her husband or father. This titling convention is true even if she is the eldest or only child of a Count as is seen in Lady Donna's title, though Lord Dono is a little confusing.


 * Do you mean unmarried women? Ekaterin's style (before she marries Miles) is "Madame Vorsoissons".  &mdash;Tamfang 05:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Questions: 1. Ivan is referred to as "Lord Ivan" rather than Lord Vorpatril in some occasions. Is this a product of familiarity as with Lady Cassia, or is Lord Vorpatril in fact the error? Official contexts such as the treason trial in Warrior's Apprentice seem to label him Lord Vorpatril and this is consistent with his father, so the former seems more likely.

2. Based on comments from Mark, it seems that while addressing a Lord Vor(name) as Lord (First Name) is appropriate in soem personal contexts, it is never appropriate to address a Lord (First Name) as Lord Vor(name). Is this true? If so, can we always assume that someone addressed as such such as Lord Voraronberg (the castellan's food and bevarage manager in Mirror Dance) is either a count's heir or head of a family?


 * Mark is especially touchy about being mistaken for Miles, so he's especially careful to emphasize that Lord Vorkosigan is not himself; others may be sloppier, though I'd guess that a Lord Jim who asks to be called Lord Vorotoole would be frowned at. &mdash;Tamfang 05:16, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

3. Are all Vor entitled to be called at minimum Lady/Lord (First Name)?
 * I do not believe so. In Komarr, Ekaterin is only referred to as  Madame Vorsoisson. Dachande 21:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
 * And in A Civil Campaign, one of the Koudelka sisters is nervous for a moment over whether to call her Madame or Lady, then decides that if she wanted to be called Lady she'd have said so. &mdash;Tamfang 04:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

4. If a Vor woman marries outside the Vor class, does she lose her Lady status such as a Haut woman marrying a ghem-lord loses her bubble? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.99.72.189 (talk • contribs) 10:01, 27 November 2006

5. Komarr, Sergyar Are there Districts on Komarr and Sergyar? Do they get a vote in the Council? One vote?
 * Sergyar is described as directly owned by Gregor, and is a vice-royalty with one Barrayaran ruler (Viceroy Aral Vorkosigan) and thus presumably, no vote in the Council. Komarr has 20 Sectors (instead of Barrayaran Districts), and although ruled by Barrayar, does have a (limited?) autonomy, with Komarr's "planetary shareholders" having voting shares (possibly in this commerce-based world based on property ownership: Laisa Toscane's heiress-aunt in A Civil Campaign is described as having "a couple of thousand Komarran planetary voting shares") that let them vote on the running of their Sectors (or Komarr entire). 75.22.180.99 20:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Do Komarr and Sergyar get votes on what the Imperium does as a whole? The above explanation states that The Viceroy runs sergyar and the sharholders run Komarr but do Komarr and Sergyar have a say in what the Barrayaran Imperium does as a whole?Dachande 03:28, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Komarr also has a Viceroy. In Brothers in Arms Duv says that he's hoping for a position on the Viceroy's staff, after he retires from the Imperial Service. Miles thinks he's aiming low, and would make a good Viceroy.Don Sample (talk) 02:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)


 * In Komarr The Komarran Viceroy calls himself the Imperial Counselor. Dachande (talk) 13:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Ivan Vorpatril
Can anyone confirm or refute this?
 * Falco Vorpatril is Count Vorpatril, and either father or younger brother to Padma Vorpatil. Thus, Padma was once Lord Vorpatril, High Vor.  Then Ivan is born.  Ivan is Lord Ivan. But Padma dies, thus any inheiretance Padma stood to gain either drops on his younger brothers or Ivan.  So Ivan inherits Padma's "Lord Vorpatril" though not necessarily the countship which goes to presumably Falco or a different younger brother.  Thus he is high Vor.Dachande 20:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no indication that Falco and Padma were brothers, and I think ACC mentions that they were distance cousins though I could be wrong. FrozenPurpleCube 17:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * That sounds more correct than my version, but based on everything else in the voruniverse, what makes Ivan and his mother High Vor? (Note I am by no means disputing Mr. Manticore, I am just trying straighten this all out. My personal guess is that Bujold has consistency problems.)Dachande 20:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, Bujold certainly does(check with the Dendarii.net folks, they probably have a list), however as we don't know who Ivan's grandfather or great-grand-parents were (well, except for Prince Xav and his wife), who knows?  Obviously Padma's father was somebody important enough that Xav's daughter married him, but that could have been as much military as political.  (well, insofar as military and politics aren't the same thing on Barrayar).  FrozenPurpleCube 00:40, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Ivan is only distantly related to Count Vorpatril. He is called "Lord Vorpatril" because of his descent from Prince Xav. http://www.dendarii.com/bujold_faq.html#counts We also know next to nothing about Alys Vorpatril. For all we know she could be some other Count's daughter.Don Sample (talk) 02:49, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Numbering of Vor Names
Tamfang and I appear to have stylistic differences about this one. I am sure there is a WikiStandard for this argument; there is one for everything else. I numbered the Vor Names because there are supposed to be 60 of them (well, at least 60 districts), and I got really tired of counting to see how many we had. If they were numbered, we could just add the two numbers up and see what we've got.

Tamfang believes that since they are not in any particular order they shouldn't be numbered. People number a lot of lists that are in arbitrary order.

Anyway I am open to thoughts on this. I think numbering it is more convenient for people looking to edit the list. Thanks Dachande 22:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

"Miles's heir"
I took out the statement that Ivan was Miles's heir (until Mark and then baby Aral appeared), and replaced it with what's more relevant in my opinion: that Padma came next after Aral as a potential claimant to the throne (Padma died before that could change).

When in Apprentice Miles asked Ivan rhetorically "Who's your heir?" Ivan's response could have been "To what?" Any Vor is likely to be a potential successor to several titles and properties, and (if he has no children) the person next in line could be different for each of those claims. For a somewhat farfetched example: if William of Wales were to marry Victoria of Sweden, their child could inherit two crowns, but that child's heir-presumptive would be two different people: Harry for Britain, and Carl Philip for Sweden. —Tamfang 09:31, 1 September 2007 (UTC)