Talk:Vorlon

Untitled
I actually generally disbelieve the whole Kosh poisoning routine in the Babylon 5 pilot movie. If JMS had made that after the series I would have thought him mentally incapacitated, or assumed there was a really cool subplot that I missed involving Kosh building a fake humanoid limb capable of converting poison into something that effects a being of energy and having an excuse to blurt out "hi, you're gunna be valen!" while not wondering why his request for privacy while boarding the station was ignored and somehow bypassing his encounter suit to shake hands.

I'd remove the "A poisoning incident involving the first Vorlon ambassador to Babylon 5 proves that Vorlons do possess a physical body of sorts." line for the moment...


 * I changed it to "suggests" from "proves". See if it reads better. -- Grunt (talk) 01:28, 2004 Aug 19 (UTC)


 * Well, like a number of pilots, there are things that are substantially different from the television series that follows. For example both Star Trek pilots and the Cosby show pilot were different in a number of ways than the series that followed.


 * JesseG 03:50, Mar 5, 2005 (UTC)

I believe the Technology - Space Vessels section could be expanded. I would write it, but I can't recall enough of the details to write with confidence. Namely, these topics can be addressed:


 * Vorlon vessels are more than just life forms. They are intelligent to a degree and may be telepathic, singing in passengers' minds while they are in stasis.
 * Vorlon vessels, at least Kosh Narenek's transport, are bonded with their lone pilot, and if the pilot dies, their reason for being is no more. Kosh's transport committed suicide by flying into the sun.
 * Vorlon vessels have shields, which are beyond the younger races' technology.
 * Vorlon vessels use gravitic propulsion and have artificial gravity, technologies they gave to the Minbari.
 * Vorlon vessels use jump point technology, which got the younger races into space.

--Bastian227 18:18, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The speculation about the delay in the vorlon's 5 day delay in responding to lyta at the edge of vorlon space is wrong. They were probably waiting for her ship to leave; at least that is her take on it in a later episode. Whitis

Didn't Kosh appear as G'Quan to G'Kar?
I didn't edit the article because I'm not sure anymore, but I thought there was another sighting of a Vorlon outside of its "shell" and not taking the form of someone's father or something, but of a being of light. I thought G'Kar saw him briefly as G'Quan during the Dust to Dust episode when he had entered Mollari's mind with the Telepathic Mindwalk Dust, and Kosh stopped him. It led to the story thread where G'Kar is incarcerated and eventually writes the Book of G'Kar. OK, most of the time Kosh was taking the form of G'Kar's father, but I thought he also appeared as G'Quan at one point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.144.171 (talk) 02:45, 10 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Kosh appears as G'Kar's father, dying. Then as an unnamed Narn. Then finally as G'Lan, the angelic spiritual being associated with G'Quan. That unnamed Narn might well be G'Quan, but no source has ever actually come out and said so. 131.96.47.17 (talk) 04:00, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

The Star Trek connection?
This is a relatively minor point, so I thought I'd bring it up here. In Star Trek: Voyager's third season, a race known as Species 8472 was introduced. Foundation Imaging, which produced the CGI effects for Babylon 5, was contracted to design 8472's ships. With their deadline fast approaching, Foundation decided to give the Vorlon's ships new "skin" textures, modify their wire-frames a little, and pass them off as the ships of Species 8472. Additionally, Species 8472 themselves are re-textured and modified Shadows. CNash 00:04, 12 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Unless you can back up such a bold statement with some kind of reference, it has no place in the article. --8472 17:06, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Cleaning this artcle up
I think the problem is all the stuff about Vorlon planet killers and whatnot. I propose to remove that unless others object. This isn't really the place for fan-boy stuff, fascinating as it is. There are plenty of B5 Tech sites out there (to which this article can/should be linked). Nothing on the TV show goes into depth about size and firepower, and the arguments over whether planet killers are "a mile big" or "actually blow up planets" are not really enlightening or important to the drama of the show.

It may also be worth combining some of the Lyta/Sebastian stuff into the bit about the Vorlon homeworld; rolling biotech into spaceships; and tidy up the bits about nature and biology (which are surely the same?).

Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 20:44, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Vorlon Planet Killer
Having more than one paragraph on any particular Vorlon spaceship is outside the scope of what Wikipedia is about. This entry is about the Vorlons, and specifically their role as characters in a fictional drama show on television. Please see: WP:NOR and WP:CRUFT. Neale Monks 20:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)


 * The links to the sites describing the supposed actions of the vorlon planet killer should be removed as two of them are very much biased to one side of the argument. Wikipedia is afterall supposed to be an impartial information source, and viewers should be left alone to decide for themselves on such unresolved issues as; whether a vorlon planet killer is 1 mile or 40 miles across, or whether or not it actually disintegrates planets.  Having links to fan-fic type conclusions by groups of a particular bent does not equate to getting official/canon information.  Its unfortunate that babylon 5 was vague with regards to these issues, and that some see these issues as unresolved.  IMO there is more canon/official support that it is capable of disintergrating planets, not just level, or sterilise, the surface.  But again thats the view i came to, my own way, thus dont feel the need the link to anything (sites) to support my argument.  As it should be, viewers should be allowed to search for more information on this matter their own way, and come to their own conclusions on these seemingly unresolved matters. - 01:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * No, links that disagree with your personal opinion shouldn't be removed for that reason alone. As my summary of the Vorlon Planet Killer says, there's debate among some fans over what the VPK can and cannot do. By all means add links to places that discuss different viewpoints, but don't delete them simply because you don't approve of them! Put more simply: Wikipedia isn't a place for you to state your opinions or present results of your own research (see WP:NOR). Moreover, this isn't a place for lengthy discussions on highly arcane aspects of science fiction stories (see WP:CRUFT).


 * One of the sites listed is not only star wars site, but a hardcore fan-site whose members are reputed to feverishly argue in favour of star wars over other sci-fi universes. The other site can also be listed as a fan site with much discussion/speculation over what babylon 5 ships (the vorlon planet killer) can or cannot do.  Its a bit backward refering to one's input as fan speculation, while directing viewers to other fan-research.  -- User:TopGunTomCruise 16:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)


 * User User:TopGunTomCruise: You can't censor opinions you don't like. They're all fan sites. Babylon 5 isn't real, Vorlons aren't real, and Planet Killers aren't real. It's all make believe. It's all speculation. In that spirit, let the reader go off to multiple different sites so they can see that fans argue over this stuff. It doesn't matter because it's all made up. Leave the conflicting links. I enjoyed all of those sites, and think many readers interested in Vorlons would as well.


 * I think that it is just you actually protecting opinion you like. However, it is not the matter of censorship at all. The title of that part of the article says: "Vorlon ships" not "fan-made fantasies about Vorlon ships", so the information given there should be canonical. If you want to give fan-made information you should either create a new section either mention that it is completely fan-made and possibly not canon, but not just give a statement with a link, because in that way it is impossible to determine either it is canonical or not.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.223.172.189 (talk) 14:56, 16 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I have removed the line about limited firepower as there is nothing to substantiate it. Firstly, the event referenced as proof of limited firepower omits two things.  The refugees are never said to come from a planet hit by a VPK, second, it is never said a VPK accompanied the fleet that hit the system at all.  Unless someone can provide a sourced statement that refugees were coming from a VPK attack, in particular in light of Lyta's statement the planet was not there anymore, and the vast amount of secondary canon, such as the assorted roleplaying games and their fluff, which include statements like "blowing up planets" (taken from the IPX sourcebook for the Mongoose RPG), at this point the debate over VPK capabilities is largely artificial and only maintained by those determined to show their pet universe is more powerful/capable/whatever than Babylon 5. Triumviron 02:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Please help with the ships section
There are lots of statements in these sections that need references. Please consider adding them. For example, where in the show do we learn Ulkesh's ship re-builds itself? How do we know a transport is 131 metres long? If these statements are going to be made, they need to be referenced to either the episode (thus: The Coming of Shadows) or to a book (thus: Babylon_5_Novels%2C_novelizations%2C_short_stories%2C_and_comic_books).

What doesn't really count are fan sites, personal speculation, and so on.

Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 15:20, 4 August 2006 (UTC)


 * I've done some work on the ships, and if no-one objects, I think we can removed the "clean up" tag at the top of the article. Please do add more information and references, but please make sure you do quote some meaningful source, like an official website, a book, an episode, or whatever. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 11:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

White Star
There's no need to have anything on the White Star here; there's a perfectly good page for that ship. If you have information to add on the White Star, do it there, not here. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 15:34, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Reminder: No Original Research
I'm planning to remove a lot of the edits you've added in the next few days, because they seem to be largely original research (i.e., stuff the writer thinks rather than has taken from an official source). Please, when you add stuff to this entry (like why Londo Mollari didn't "see" the Vorlon) it's important to cite your reference clearly. Ideally, cite an episode of the show, as these are the best references, but otherwise things like comments by JMS made on the newsgroups can also be considered good references. Novels are always more of a problem because of they often contradict one another and the extent to which they are canon is debated.

As you can see from the banner at the top of the Vorlon article, the problem with the article is that it is a mish-mash of stuff directly taken from the show mixed with quite a lot of fan speculation. Wikipedia's official policy is "no orginal research" (see WP:NOR -- so if something isn't published elsewhere, it doesn't go into the article.

Thanks,

Neale

Neale Monks 08:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)


 * These edits are mostly removal of speculation, or correction of obvious mistakes, such as the idea of vorlon suits being unique, easily disproved by War Without End, and possibly the re-use of the Kosh prop in Into the Fire. Other bits, such as vorlon gender, appear to be entirely speculative, given that there've been no female vorlons seen. On the topic of Mollari, it's entirely speculative why he did or did not see anything, but there's certainly no evidence that the vorlons have not interefered in Centauri genetics, the prescence of telepaths of the same type as those of other races seems to prohibit this, and it is pure fanon, and misleading. A better option would be to erase all mention of this theory from the 'telepaths' section.


 * It's already a morass of fanon and speculation, so, if one wants rid of such 'original research' then removing "Given that the Centauri were likely not significantly modified by the Vorlons" onwards would be required.


 * Vorlon fighters and their fragility can be seen from various more detailed investigations, notably babtech (listed later). It is not suggested in any detail by JMS (Lurker's Guide, Guide Page, Interludes and Examinations) that they are 'one-man' fighters in the manner of conventional fighters, but rather that they have a 'more primative' system of guidance than the transport vessels, which could, honestly, mean anything. The exact quote is "A personal transport is assigned to one vorlon for life, changing and evolving over time. Little fighters have a more primitive system. It's not the same thing as a shadow-vessel merge. A big Vorlon cruiser has a full crew." Which is the cause from edit from 'large' to 'full' crew. Precisely what 'full' means in the context is unknown. Not necesserily 'always' telepathic is from the second vorlon ambassador's ship knowing he was in danger, and the supposed telepathic link between ship and owner in the Technomage trilogy (Kosh restraining his ship telepathically from trying to rescue him or aid in an escape). There is either a telepathic or wireless component in their control, although visual responses to audio commands have been witnessed.


 * The history of the 'thirdspace critter-Vorlon' conflict was changed for readability, and to remove the number, as the film doesn't have a mention of the number of vorlons who were controlled by the critters' powers.


 * No Vorlon having died for millennia before Kosh is from Lyta's comments on Ulkesh's behaviour, where she states that they've not known death for a long time and are 'taking it pretty hard.'


 * I think that's just about everything I changed, aside from readability issues. I'll go through this tomorrow and add citations on my changes. The only other change that appears there is that 'wings' (to be honest, I can't see any wing-like structures on Ulkesh. He looks like a giant floating jellyfish) could only provide some part of their propulsion because of their ability to manouver unaided in space comes from 'Falling Towards Apotheosis,' where Ulkesh and the remnant of Kosh fly outside the station, before entering Ulkesh's ship.


 * On the issue raised above, they do have a solid component to their structure, despite their resemblance to 'typical' 'non-corporeal beings' - JMS is quoted stating this on the commentry to 'Falling Towards Apotheosis' "Remember, they do have a certain physicality about them, even in that form, and the nature of the poison was such that it would affect that kind of life form using a crystalline base (note in the pilot the screen reads analyzing crystalline structure, and you filter light or refract or distort it using a crystalline structure)" JMS never rejected the idea that they do have a solid form, as presented in the Pilot. One can possibly infer from this that they have literal 'hands' too, though these aren't discenrable from the images we have of them sans-angel-illusions.


 * References:
 * http://home.comcast.net/~donsem/valen01.jpg <- Identical Vorlon suits, screenshot from 'War Without End Part Two' The same suits are used over and over (bugetary reasons) one would assume, and appear to represent something in the social role of vorlons.
 * http://www.babtech-onthe.net/vorlons/warships.html <-- Babtech page on vorlon ships, including video clip ( http://www.babtech-onthe.net/quicktime/eashootvfighter.mov ) of an Earth Alliance fighter destroying a vorlon fighter, indicating their fragility compared to their evidently prodigeous weapons power.
 * http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/059.html <-- Lurker's Guide, Interludes and Examinations. Creator's comments on various aspects of vorlon culture, as well as their ships crew's and fighters possessing a 'more primative' control system.
 * http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/070.html <-- Falling Towards Apoethosis, Vorlon Physicality.


 * Can't argue with any of that. Looks to me like this article really needs to be re-written from top to bottom with all significant statements referenced to a show, JMS quote, or whatever. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 17:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Right, I agree. Added a few links today for justification. A re-write does seem in order, I might do one during the week if I can find my DVDs...


 * I just did a bunch of edits which I hope makes the article even more encylopedic. I didn't notice this post on the talk page until after I had done the edits, so I hope most of them were in keeping with what you wanted.  There still needs to be heavy editing with it and of course a lot of references added. Radagast83 21:23, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Quite frankly i think the ship section was better the way it was before.Nubula 10:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * I can understand how you feel. I started to do cleanup on that section and soon realized it was full of speculation disgused as OR.  After removing those, I realized that there really wasn't enough information to warrant sub-sections for each type of ship. I feel the current format is more fitting for the amount of detail that was required for the article. Radagast83 16:34, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * And just how prey tell, if I may be so bold as to question your self ascribed authority, can you claim that most of it was speculation disgused as OR when all of the claims have referances. Personaly given that you said "amount of detail that was required for the article" I'd say this is just your attempt at minimilisation disgused as clean up. Nubula 17:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
 * A good question to bring up at this point is if the "facts" provided in some of the links were at all valid. Where is it stated that a unreleased game is officially canon? I am going to again cleanup the section, add references, but leave the subheadings as they had been before my most recent change. In addition, I just want each article to be well referenced, and contain information that is accurate to the continuity and canonicity. Supposition, fancruft, and completely unsourced claims smack of OR, and unfortunately a large number of Babylon 5 articles are full of it.Radagast83 18:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Request source
Hi there can anyone send me the source where it states that it was acctually the vorlons that created the planet killer?

i was almost certain it was the shadows however since i havnet seen the show in about 5 years my memory is a little hazy. i do remember the planet killer looking more like a shadow ship more then a vorlon one along with the poison released into the earths atmosphere which was i belive also a shadow device. anyways please refreash my memory Maverick423 19:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Which planet killer? The Vorlons had one kind (a big flying saucer spaceship) and the Shadows had another (some kind of missle/cloud/planet-into-soup thing). Each looked like the rest of each races' technology: yellow for the Vorlon one and black for the Shadow one. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 19:49, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * thats the one i remember the missle cloud one the one that surrounded the planet and fired millions of missles onto the planet. i acctually dont remember the vorlon planet killer craft anymore so im ganna have to rewatch the series =( if only it still came out i dont wanna have to buy the series on the stores too expensive. well anyways thanks much friend
 * Maverick423 20:32, 19 December 2006 (UTC)


 * The DVDs are certainly worth having, especially seasons 3 and 4. You can also (if you have a US bank account) download the shows from the iTunes Music Store one episode at a time, and at $1.99 a show, you can certainly pick out the episodes you want. If you're in the US and have a Windows PC you can also watch the shows via the IN2TV web site. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 01:11, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:B5 kosh01b.jpg
Image:B5 kosh01b.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 06:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sine this image has been saved and given a rationale, it should go back in. Kimera757 (talk) 17:28, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Removed "Government" section.
I removed the following paragraph.


 * Vorlon territory is known as the Vorlon Empire. Despite being called the Vorlon Empire, it is unknown if there is a Vorlon Emperor, though there is a High Command. The Vorlon Empire maintains a strict policy of isolation. No ship entering Vorlon space returns; the Vorlons claimed attempted expeditions had met with accidents and suggested that no more expeditions be sent into their territory. The Vorlon high command is ruled by 12 Vorlon Lights Cardinal.  The Vorlon Empire is protected by a very powerful network, rumored to be generated by telepaths enslaved at the event horizon of hyperspace windows.

I can't find any information about any of this; it looks like someone's fanfiction ideas. If someone has sources for any of this, please do put it back in the article, but I'm pretty sure absolutely nothing was ever revealed about the internal structure of Vorlon governance. grendel|khan 06:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


 * All the B5 pages suffer from heavy fanfic and in-universe prose. It will take a long time to fix. Btw I added a line about Vorlons' true appearance based on the (now deleted) vid of the fight between Kosh/Sheridan/Lorien and Ulkesh. I tried to make sure that description doesn't go further than what the episode actually shows. 131.96.109.200 (talk) 20:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Truevorlon.jpg
Image:Truevorlon.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Vorlons.png
Image:Vorlons.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 03:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Wrists/hands
Vorlons have wrists/hands in their true form. This is necessary, because the doctor that treated Kosh for poison had to locate the concentration of poison at the source of the poisoning. He couldn't have done medical work on an illusion, so Kosh had to be somehow 'allowing' him to see the real thing. Therefore it's without a doubt that Vorlons do, in fact, have wrists and hands in roughly the same place as humans. 76.231.44.109 (talk) 09:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


 * This speculation is entirely plausible; I think you're almost certainly right. However, speculation and original research has no place on wikipedia. 131.96.47.17 (talk) 04:04, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Vorlon Illusion
Throughout the article it is stated that other species see the Vorlons as holy beings due to their genetic manipulation. Apart from inducing telepathic development in the younger races, I don't think they did much more in the genetic development sense. It is hinted that they did tinker a lot with the culture of other species to enforce their status as "holy beings". Due to Kosh's alleged exhaustion after being seen by several dozen people while saving Sheridan and to the fact that everyone (except Londo, likely due to the influence of the Shadows over him) saw a winged figure of their own race which they associated with various religious figures, I believe that it is much more likely that said effect is due to a psychic hypnosis. Being seen by so many Kosh would need to influence a LOT of people at once, which could be challenging even for a Vorlon, considering the power of the image he needed to imprint. This is reinforced by the fact that when Kosh's leftover piece jumped to fight the new Vorlon ambassador, everyone saw what is generally assumed to be the true form a Vorlon. If the image was due to previously implanted programming, then everyone would've again seen the angelical holy visage they were used to. Since the Vorlons in question were too busy, you know, killing each other, at that particular point in time they wouldn't care too much for appearances, another indicative that it's probably a conscious effort - 90.200.164.69 (talk) 22:45, 18 April 2010 (UTC)


 * In series, that's the way they put it, so that's the way it belongs in this article. Unless you can find a reliable source that says otherwise, it's just fan speculation. 131.96.47.17 (talk) 04:05, 7 February 2013 (UTC)