Talk:Voseo

Tratarse de tú y vos
In Vargas Llosa's Conversation at La Catedral, it is used (once) "tratarse de tú y vos" to indicate familiarity between boss and servant. Internet gives back a few more examples. Now, in Argentina I've never heard it. Is it common in Peru or elsewhere? If true, it might be interesting to mention it here. Ejrrjs | What? 09:06, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Well, perhaps it has been used in Argentina:
 * nada más que porque estábamos en el extranjero, ya se imaginaba que debíamos de tratarnos de tú y vos.
 * Lucio V. Mansilla: Horror al vacío.

Differences among countries
This needs more research, but it should be noted that among the distinctions between countries, some countries use both. My understanding is that in some parts of the Spanish-speaking world, vos is condescending rather than familiar, whereas in other countries this is obviously not the case.

In Costa Rica vos is moslty used and tu is usualy regarded as being "imported". Kinds that watch a lot of Discovery Kids (like mine) use tu, at least for now. In Guatemala and El Salvador you might find a little more of tu and a little less of vos. --65.182.16.84 23:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

The idea of importation is an interesting one indeed. I think this should be explored. For example, the large number of immigrants in Spain who use the form could render Spain non-red on the map, should it not? I know it is not common in the media or in scholarly settings, but it certainly is heard amongst the large Argentine population in Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.218.61 (talk) 00:35, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Você (Portuguese) vs Usted (Spanish)
European Portuguese "você" and Spanish "usted" are not semantically equivalent. The deferential form of 2nd person address, both in Brazil and in Portugal, is actually "o senhor/a senhora" rather than "você". "Você" is normally used in Portugal to address someone who is socially equal, but whom you don't know very well. Unlike Spanish "usted", I believe "você" would not be used for example to address the president of the Portuguese republic or any other public authority. Besides, I think the comparison with Brazilian Portuguese is inadequate in the sense that, unlike "vos" in Spanish, "você" is a standard Portuguese pronoun which simply happens to have acquired a different semantic value in Brazil replacing informal "tu" (see the T-V distinction article for further information on Portuguese and Brazilian usage). 161.24.19.82 17:00, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
 * In Argentina vos is a standard pronoun, and since 2001 Real Academia Española uses the Argentinian conjugations in its web page. See for example the conjugation of mover. HaŋaRoa (talk) 20:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

No Sources
There are no sources on this page to support entries. Elhombre72 10:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * There are now. —Pablo D. Flores (Talk) 11:55, 26 October 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, now you need ones that weren't written by English-Only speakers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.210.97.28 (talk) 03:33, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

All the information for Northern Central America has no sources, it seems more like perception from someone that actual facts, because of the lack of opportunities and education a lot of people from these countries do not even know the difference between tu or tú. Tú is a pronoun, tu is a possessive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.203.117.111 (talk) 12:41, 8 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Of course something this racist had to be written by a Costa Rican. I'd like to remind you that Costa Rica also lacks these so-called opportunities and education the rest of us in Central America do, Costa Rica isn't any better than the rest of the region. These edits were made by me, an educated Honduran who knows the difference between tú and tu. By the way, it's perception from someone than actual facts, maybe you shouldn't be making edits in an English Wikipedia article if you can't speak English properly. I'll be adding back my edits and I'll link a proper source this time. You should've also checked my talk tab in this page before making such a racist assumption. I can also provide more picture proof of voseo usage throughout Honduras if it's necessary. Pbshepherd (talk) 23:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

El Laberinto del Fauno
In the current movie El Laberinto del Fauno, set in Spain in 1944, a faun addresses someone with various laudatory titles (alteza and whatnot) and with the pronoun vos. Is this a throwback to the medieval use of vos as a formal pronoun? If so, is that common in fairy tales in Spain? Maybe that should be mentioned in the article.

—RuakhTALK 06:06, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

This "vos" is indeed a laudatory term for royalty and such, not the modern use in certain latinoamerican countries like here, in Costa Rica. Verbs would also be diferent: "vos sois" (formal, ancient, laudatory) vs. "vos sos" (informal modern use in Central America, Argentina, Uruguay...) --65.182.16.84 23:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Vuestra Merced/Usted
I'm wondering where someone picked up the source that indicates that "Vuestra merced" slowly, over time, morphed into "Usted". I am certain that "Usted" evolved from the Arabic title "Ustadh" (unfortunately the computer I'm working on leaves me unable to render this in Arabic), as a result of Moorish rule. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Leftwing Pinko (talk • contribs) 01:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC).


 * Whatever source was used, the Diccionario Usual (Usable Dictionary) of the Real Academía Española (Spanish Royal Academy) agrees with it: see the etymologies it gives for usted and vusted. (Well, it doesn't say whether it happened quickly or slowly; but it agrees that vuestra merced → vusted → usted, at least.) —RuakhTALK 04:14, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

The discussions I've seen render the Arabic word as استاذ (ustaadh). Although the RAE is obviously an important source, IMHO they are not necessarily the final authority on the history of the language. I'm curious if the theories of the Arabic origin might be true although I have no idea how seriously this theory is taken by mainstream scholars. See --Mcorazao 04:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
 * P.S. Most of the discussions I have seen on this topic debate seem to imply that if Usted was borrowed from Arabic it must simply have been borrowed wholesale at one time and rapidly became common in the language. The fact that there is not a sudden rise to prominence of this word at an appropriate time during the Moorish occupation is pointed to as "proof" that this etymology is false. Personally this seems overly simplistic to me. It seems entirely plausible (if not likely) that a word like this could have existed (perhaps initially confined to the Mozarab community) and not had wide use because most people associated this with Islam. Then, as time passed people forgot the origin of the word and it became more accepted. This is essentially what happened with the word Ojala which is a known Islamic religious reference and yet today is seen by most as a Christian religious reference. As far as the documented evolution of "vuestra merced" I could not comment except to say that perhaps this is a case of convergent evolution. I.e. people were using both "vuestra merced" and "Ustaadh" and the two gradually morphed into a single word that more closely resembled "Ustaadh" (and in that case it would make sense that the RAE documented one side of the evolutionary tree over the other).


 * Anyway, just speculation on my part. --Mcorazao 14:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed "tu" less formal than "vos" mistake
I removed certain references to the use of "tu" in Central America. "Vos" and "tu" are both informal and none is more formal or less formal than the other, or used when talking to kids or the like. Nowdays some kids (like my own!) talk of "tu" because that's what they get form Discovery Kids in spanish here in Costa Rica. Some people speak of "tu" when talking with foreigners (Colombians, Mexicans, people form the US that learned spanish with "tu", etc.). I would only use "tu" to address people whose native language is not spanish and that get confused: otherwise I just can´t do it (I'm too much of a vos guy and I guess when we were kids we didn´t like people that talked of "tu" too much, specialy costarricans that lived in México or Spain and came speaking "mexican" or "castilian" and not "costarrican") I usualy talk to my little girl of "vos" and she responds with "tu", "tu que quierés papito" (what do you want dady) I also worked a lot with people from the rest of Central America and I´ve been plenty of times to Guatemala and El Salvador. There´s also a lot of nicaraguans here in Costa Rica. I guess people get confused when we play around with "tu" and "vos".cgl--65.182.16.84 23:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)


 * esto es sólo para usted, señor "User:65.182.16.84|65.182.16.84]] 23:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)". Parece que en Costa Rica, como en otras partes del continente, a ustedes se les olvidó que Ud. es la abriviatura de Usted y que Vos. es la abreviatura de Vosotros, que a su véz, es la forma antigua de Ustedes... I just saying... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.110.128.37 (talk)

Vos nunca ha sido la abreviatura de vosotros, si supiera conjugar en vos sabría que lo que dice no tiene sentido. Evolucionó del vosotros pero no se sustituye. El vosotros en Centroamerica sería ustedes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.195.72.247 (talk) 20:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Don't confuse formal/informal with respect/familiarity (sometime called T-V distinction). Formal/informal contrasts the use in print or in a speech with a normal casual spoken form. Respect/familiarity contrasts the use with older people or strangers with the use with family and friends. Vos and tú are both familiar. In Argentina vos is both formal and informal and in Chile it's only informal. The Chilean formal and familiar form would be tú. HaŋaRoa (talk) 20:40, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Fascinating! In Buenos Aires (where I was born), vos is used towards all except when being courteous or showing respect outside of family or friends. Eforp (talk) 11:48, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I have NEVER heard vos used in Chiapas
Mexico is one country where vos straight up does not exist. I have travelled all over the country and have never once heard it. It supposedly exists in Chiapas but everyone I have ever met in Chiapas uses tu. Can anyone actually come up with documented proof of people using vos in Chiapas? If not Mexico should be recolored red on the map.


 * Mexico should be recolored, vos is certainly used in Chiapas, maybe it's more common near the frontier with Guatemala (Comitán, etc), check out this video made in Chiapas (mind the extensive use of profanity...) "La puteada chiapaneca" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.203.69.129 (talk) 06:16, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Is this really true??
''Peru* Cuba*
 * The use of vos is disappearing, in Cuba it is heard in some region in the east, in Peru, some elderly people still use vos, but it has gotten out of use among the younger population.

''

In Peru, some elderly people....???

In all my experience living 25 years in Peru I have never seen this. It actually is the contrary. SOME, (very few) young people who want to imitate argentinians football players or so use the word "vos" but it is frowned upon by elderly people. The use is not common though and it is seen with scorn by the majority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.160.8.67 (talk) 00:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed the template
There are only three Spanish speaking countries where there is no voseo, and Spain is one of them. would be much more appropriate.

200.111.44.186 (talk) 18:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I concur. The template was reinserted on November 2009 . I removed it again today. HaŋaRoa (talk) 20:41, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Editor: How can you "see" someone using voseo? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.103.160.190 (talk) 15:13, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Then let me add the aforementioned template --Fandelasketchup (talk) 21:04, 29 January 2017 (UTC)

Suggestion of a source for countries in which voseo is used
This source gives the following classification:


 * 1) Places in which voseo is more common than tuteo:  Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, Chiapas, part of Tabasco.


 * 1) Places in which tuteo and voseo compete: Chile, parts of Bolivia, Ecuador, the far north and extreme south of Peru, parts of Venezuela and Colombia, and the interior of eastern Cuba.


 * 1) Places in which only tuteo is present: part of Bolivia, most of Peru, parts of Colombia and Venezuela, most of Mexico, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, and most of Cuba.

Currently, the geographical information in the article is not well sourced. Perhaps someone can amend it to reflect what is given in this source. 128.32.238.145 (talk) 08:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Irregularities
"Unlike tú, which has many irregular forms, the only verbs that are conjugated irregularly in their voseo forms in the indicative present are ser (vos sos), ir (vos vas), and haber (vos has...)."

Is that really true? My impression is that the tu and vos forms are the same for ir and haber; that is, tu vas a mi casa, vos vas a mi casa; tu has comido, vos has comido.

I fixed it, revert if you need to. Sabrebattletank (talk) 03:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I meant based on the rule of replacing the final -R of the infinitive with an -S + a tilde, ser, ir, and haber would be *sés, *ís, and *habés.


 * All other verbs follow this rule (referring to the infinitive, not compared to the tú-form.).


 * HTH. Marxolang (talk) 01:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Correct, those three are the only irregular verbs. Also, I'm a native speaker from El Salvador and I sometimes use i for the affirmative imperative of ir. Ite para allá instead of andate para allá, but I wasn't able to find resources to suppoert my comment, which is actually true but criminally understudied. Even if I say it, it's considered rather vulgar, so probably still not worth mentioning.--Neqitan (talk) 04:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I found this: ir, irse | Diccionario panhispánico de dudas | RAE - ASALE, which does mention i and ite, but says they're alien to the cultured norm. Curiously, it also says íos is archaic, even tho it follows the standard d-dropping of the reflective/pronominal affirmative imperative with vosotros. Brauxljo (talk) 04:59, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * There's also this webpage: voseo | Diccionario panhispánico de dudas | RAE - ASALE which refers to i and ite as not proper of the cultured norm. Brauxljo (talk) 05:09, 29 December 2023 (UTC)
 * The Pan-Hispanic Dictionary of Doubts does recognize habés voseo | Diccionario panhispánico de dudas | RAE - ASALE, but says it's not proper of the cultured norm. I also don't get why habe is the affirmative imperative with vos instead of habé haber | Definición | Diccionario de la lengua española | RAE - ASALE. Brauxljo (talk) 05:25, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

Chile
On the color map, Chile is marked as a country where "vos" is "predominant." But, at least in my experience, this is not the case, and "tu" is much more common there. I recently spent about a month and a half traveling through Chile, and the only time I heard anything related to "vos" used was as an implied pronoun in "como estai?" Other than that, "tu" seemed to be the exclusive form. I spoke with several Chileans about this, and they all told me that "vos" is not commonly used there, much less the "predominant" form. A couple of them told me that two or three generations ago it was used a lot more, but now only rarely. So I think the article and map should be changed. It seems that now-a-days in Chile "tu" is much more common that "vos." And "vos" is more a vestigial form now, used in phrases like "como estai?" 190.42.68.173 (talk) 17:15, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Anybody have a comment on this? The map should be changed unless someone can cite source stating that vos is "predominant" in chile. 190.42.102.175 (talk) 18:57, 15 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe the article mentions that in Chile, the use of pronominal "vos" (pronounced as /voh/) is quite restricted, but that the use of verbal voseo is actually quite widepread in the spoken language. Marxolang (talk) 13:26, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm a Chilean, living and raised in that country, and I can assure you that the form "vos" is never used in the spoken Chilean Spanish, except when one is trying to imitate foreign people (Argentinean or Uruguayan), who actually use this spoken form. I don't know where did you get that "vos" is "quite restricted" in my country, for in truth is merely "not used" (well, at least if you don't count the part of "imitating").


 * Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't mean that others don't use it. Chile has a population of over 16 million. Also note that the use of the pronoun "vos" in Chile is much more related to social stratifications than to regionalisms. Some educated circles may avoid the pronominal use altogether, although the verbal voseo is still quite common in the spoken language. Oh, and next time please use a signature. ;-) saludos Marxolang (talk) 07:18, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Typo in the subjunctive table?
The last item in the Rio de la Plata column is "No te preocupés," with an accent mark on the last "e." But for consistency with the generalization stated in the text (as well as Academia website), it shouldn't have the accent right? ("No te preocupes.")


 * It's corrected now. Thanks! ;-) Marxolang (talk) 07:20, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Vos
I'm not sure this article got it exactly right. Though it's important to emphasize that "vos" has variations across Latin American countries, from what I understand, the correct usage of "vos" is with the "eis" endings--comisteis, dormisteis, hablasteis. In fact, I believe the variations have their origin in this use. It may be worth considering another source, particularly this noteworthy one: http://buscon.rae.es/draeI/SrvltConsulta?TIPO_BUS=3&LEMA=vos.

I also take issue with the statement that Guatemala is a place where the predominant use is not "vos." I think this is incorrect, from experience. Men, for instance, never refer to one another in "tu," since it's a sign of snobbery and being gay (no joke), even at work or professional places. That said, "usted" is widely in use as well.

Please take this with a grain of salt, but it's worth mentioning.



70.72.44.213 (talk) 22:01, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

70.72.44.213 (talk) 22:03, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

70.72.44.213 (talk) 22:38, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, SO DO I DISAGREE. Guatemala is HIGHLY Voseante Country (The use of VOS). Tu and Usted are never heard in a familiar context. If you come to anybody talking in TU or USTED, you'll be looked at like a WEIRD, DISGUSTING Person. It's just stupid media that insist in usign TU, and even nowadays, media's using Vos more and more.

But the information regarding Guatemala is incorrect. We (Guatemalans) never use anything that's not VOS. And we barely exchange them. So please correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rtyb (talk • contribs) 21:31, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi Rtyb:

I'm from Guatemala too, and I've noticed that "usted" is used if "voseo" is not. But I can certainly understand your view. Most Guatemalans (especially men) use "voseo."



70.72.45.98 (talk) 23:56, 7 November 2012 (UTC)

Voseo in El Salvador
I've been reverting House1090 edits because the sources in the article (specially from Pan-Hispanic Dictionary of Doubts) states that it coexists with tuteo (in a three-tiered system: usted, tú, vos), unlike Nicaragua and Costa Rica where tuteo doesn´t exist in spoken language, but in written. Even the sources that House1090 has put in the article, also states that too.

"En el cuestionario se pedía seleccionar entre oraciones con el verbo terminado en &minus;ste or &minus;stes, para determinar cuál de las dos formas se utilizaba más el informante. Los resultados muestran que la forma con la desinencia &minus;ste es la que se emplea con más frecuencia, ya que el 70% de los informantes escogió esta terminación, mientras que sólo el 30% escogió la desinencia &minus;stes. Estos porcentajes sugieren que en el pretérito indefinido predomina el uso de las formas verbales correspondientes a tú. (...) En el sunjuntivo se nota la misma tendencia que se da en el pretérito indefinido, ya que las formas de segunda persona del singular se emplean con mayor frecuencia (60%) que las formas correspondientes a vos (40%)."
 * First source:

"5.3.9 Intensidad de uso de vos, tú y usted

Para saber cúal es la forma que se emplea para el trato de confianza, se preguntó el pronombre que el informante empleaba para dirigirse a sus hermanos y amigos. Los resultados muestran que el uso del pronombre vos es el más frecuente. Además se preguntó con cuál pronombre se sentía más cómodo el informante y al comparar los porcentajes, se puede constatar que el predominio de la forma vos, según se detalla a continuación:

...................... tú ......... vos .......... usted

amigos................ 20% ........ 51% ........... 29%

hermanos.............. 16% ........ 70% ........... 11%

se siente más

cómodo usando......... 20% ........ 38% ........... 39%

Los datos antes mencionados presentan evidencia de la coexistencia del tuteo y voseo como pronombres de confianza, lo cual coincide con lo que se ha informado en estudios anteriores (Páez 80, Lipski Central 111)."

"En las escuelas se enseña la conjugación con el pronombre tú y las formas verbales correspondientes. Esto puede verse en el libro Idioma nacional de Ana María Nafría, que se utiliza para la enseñanza del tercer ciclo (7° a 9° grado), en el que aparecen oraciones como: "Dime Berta, ¿es verdad que aprobaste?", "Tú estudias computación." (144), "Tú te bañas." (147). La información que aparece sobre el voseo no ofrece una opinión negativa, pero tampoco menciona que es la forma que más se emplea en El Salvador. (...) Los profesores en general, no hacen mención del uso de vos, pues se sobreentiende que este pronombre se emplea solamente en el habla informal. Debido a esto, cuando se explica la gramática se pone énfasis en el uso de los pronombres tú y usted."

"5.6 Valoración social de vos (...)

a) vos indica familiaridad........... 74%

b) vos es elegante................... 17%


 * vos no es elegante................ 77%

c) vos es cariñoso................... 49%


 * vos no es cariñoso................ 45%

d) el uso de vos debería:


 * enseñarse en las escuelas......... 10%


 * eliminarse........................ 15%


 * usarse solo en casa y con amigos.. 69%

e) tiene prestigio el uso de vos..... 23%


 * el uso de vos no tiene prestigio.. 61%


 * impreciso/imprecisa............... 16%


 * usarse solo en casa y con amigos.. 69%

(...)

Al analizar los resultados de las preguntas, se puede llegar a la conclusión de que el uso de vos no tiene un prestigio manifiesto. Así lo indica el 61% de los informantes, quienes no consideran el vos como un trato prestigioso, ya que después de usted, es tú el trato que se percibe como la forma más educada (72%). Estos resultados concuerdan con la investigación de Lipski, quien informa: "...there has traditionally been a learned reaction against the voseo, which has been considered vulgar, plebian, antiliterary..." ( Central 103)"

"La información obtenida en la encuesta, permitió investigar preliminarmente todos los objetivos que se habían figado y los resultados se resumen a continación:

a) Vos es el pronombre que se emplea con mayor intensidad para el trato de confianza entre familiares y amigos.

b) Todavía existe el uso de las formas habés y habís del verbo haber.

c) Las formas del furturo de desinencia &minus;és parecen estar desapareciendo del habla salvadoreña. d) Existe el uso del tuteo en El Salvador, lo cual es evidente en las formas verbales del futuro del indicativo, en las del presente del subjuntivo, y en las formas pronominales de término de complemento. Los resultados muestran que existe el uso frecuente de usted incluso para el trato de confianza y que después de vos, el pronombre que se emplea más es usted.

e) Los factores edad y género influyen en la selección de los pronombres, pero el nivel educativo no parece influir en la selección de la forma pronominal.

f) En cuanto a la valoración social, vos no parece gozar de un prestigio manifiesto, pero tiene aceptación como una costumbre propia del país."

"Por nuestra parte, hemos comprobado la preponderancia que tiene el uso de vos para el trato de confianza en El Salvador, la existencia del tuteo y la tendencia que existe en el país al uso frecuente del pronombre usted."

This source is a study about Honduran and Salvadorian people in Western U.S. from first to third generations, but it also states that tuteo occurs (in a lesser way, but it occurs) in the spoken Spanish language of the Salvadorian people studied.
 * Second source:

"In spite of these findings, as Lipski (1988) states, vos remains the pronoun of maximum familiarity and solidarity, while usted expresses distance and respect. Tú, when used, corresponds to an intermediate level, expressing familiarity, but not confianza or deep trust. This is confirmed by Kapovic (2007:80) who states that el tuteo salvadoreño “significa amistad pero sin la confianza que requiere el vos.” (...) Benavides (1993), Castro (2000), Lipski (2000), Micheau (1991) y Ridenour (2004) point out that the phenomenon of the voseo that is observed in Central America and to a certain extent in the United States can be organized as a three-tiered system, as proposed by Pinkerton (1986) and Baumel-Schreffler (1995), in which tú serves as an intermediate step between vos and usted. Castro (2000:20-71) elaborates on this concept of a three-tiered system by categorizing the basic uses of each pronoun in Honduras as follows:

VOS........................... TÚ............................ USTED

1. Vos of solidarity....... As written form of vos......... Usted of distance

2. Vos of confianza........ Tú of sophistication....... Usted of respect

3. Vos of undue confianza.. Tú as intermediate......... Usted to difer social class

4. Vos of offense.......... Tú of acommodation......... Usted of deference

5. Vos of agression........ Tú of hypercorrection...... Usted of sarcasm

6. Vos of anger............................................ Usted of anger

7. Vos of intimacy......................................... Usted of intimacy

8. Vos derogatory.......................................... Usted of cariño

9. Vos impersonal manner................................... Usted of persuasion

Many of these uses have been confirmed for Salvadoran Spanish as well (e.g., Hernández 2002, 2009), and are observed in some of the findings for the present study."

"El voseo en El Salvador Empecemos con el aspecto morfosintáctico más significativo, el empleo de los pronombres personales de segunda persona singular (Baumel-Schreffler 1989, 1994, 1995; Castro-Mitchell 1991; Gaínza 1976; Lipski 1986c, 1989b; Pinkerton 1986; Rey 1994, ms.; Solano 1986; Vargas 1974; Villegas 1965 para Centroamérica; Lambert y Tucker 1976, Brown y Gilman 1960 para casos generales). El Salvador, igual que los demás países centroamericanos, es una nación eminentemente voseante, es decir que se prefiere el empleo del pronombre vos (y las formas verbales correspondientes) frente al tú que aparece como único ocupante del paradigma pronominal de segunda persona singular en los manuales de gramática. A diferencia de algunos otros dialectos centroamericanos, el habla salvadoreña presenta un sistema pronominal que da cabida a los tres pronombres singulares del castellano: tú, vos y usted."
 * Third source:

"La situación de los pronombres personales en El Salvador es más matizada, pues además de la dicotomía pan-centroamericana vos-usted, existen casos de tuteo interno, es decir entre interlocutores salvadoreños sin pretensiones extranjerizantes (Baumel-Schreffler 1989, 1994; Lipski 1986c, 1989b). Algunos salvadoreños--pero no todos--aceptan el empleo ocasional de tú como variante intermedia: significa amistad pero sin el grado de confianza que requiere el voseo. Este trato tridimensional se encuentra sobre todo entre los individuos de mayor preparación escolar, pero se puede afirmar que el uso esporádico de tú no es tan ajeno a las normas salvadoreñas como el mismo pronombre en territorio nicaragüense. Kany (1969: 114) nota que `El Salvador no constituye excepción en lo referente al voseo popular. De hecho, el voseo está allí enormemente extendido en la conversación familiar. Menos general que en Argentina, su uso (no sus formas) es tal vez más comparable con el de Chile. En las clases altas se usa ocasionalmente "de una manera velada," si bien el uso social educado impone el tú. Kany (1969: 116) también observa la alternancia de formas propias de tú y vos en el habla salvadoreña popular. Páez Urdaneta (1981: 79-80) afirma que `''Nacionalmente, el tuteo ... es raro ... En comparación con Guatemala y Nicaragua y Costa Rica, El Salvador y Honduras presentan cierto tuteo verbal que sin ser intenso no deja de ser algo evidente. En el trato familiar, vos es "universal" ... el voseo es intenso en cada una de las clases sociales salvadoreñas.''"

* :"El español que se habla en El Salvador y su importancia para la dialectología hispanoamericana" really?,

I doubt that El Salvador is a place to use as a reference of the castillian language!, and please, here is a talk place, not to dump, copy-paste bunch of articles-text...

"2.3.5. América Central
 * Royal Spanish Academy : Pan-Hispanic Dictionary of Doubts

a) En Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua y Costa Rica, el voseo es un fenómeno general en todas las clases sociales. A excepción de Costa Rica, donde el tuteo connota pedantería, en el resto de los países citados las clases escolarizadas suelen utilizar un sistema ternario, en el que vos es el tratamiento familiar o de confianza, tú el tratamiento de formalidad intermedia y usted el tratamiento más formal. La modalidad más generalizada es la de voseo pronominal y verbal de tipo rioplatense, con algunas alteraciones —como las terminaciones en -rés del futuro en Guatemala, El Salvador y Honduras (v. cuadro) o el tuteo pronominal frecuente en Guatemala—."

★ Nacho ★  (Contact me)   ★ 02:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)


 * See my Talk page for reply, might just place it here. House1090 (talk) 03:05, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm from El Salvador and even though I haven't read everything you wrote, I have to say several things: 1) I have never used tú in spoken Spanish. We use vos or usted, but tú is used mainly (sorry because this is maybe not so objective) by people who are trying to sound more like what we hear on TV. Tú is used in text books or advertisement, but almost never used when we speak. 2) The fact that they used a questionnaire asking for the ending "ste" or "stes" is totally unrelated with using vos or tú. We consider that "stes" is a mistake and that the correct way to use vos is like in "vos fuiste" and "vos fuistes" is something that an uneducated person would say. In Salvadoran Spanish we consider that vos and tú have the same grammatical form in this case, and we don't think that we are using the tú form with vos, but that they happen to be the same. I live in the Capital and I can tell you that the only times I've heard someone using "tú" honestly have been 1) People who have been living in the USA for a long time and came back, or 2) Friends who study in international schools. I really think that most of the sources related with voseo in El Salvador are biased by the fact that on TV, books, etc. Everyone uses tú but in normal life we always use vos or usted. I would say that we use tú when you are being impersonal. --133.6.210.102 (talk) 06:08, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

"tú/vos" as the english "thou/you"
Hello, I'm new here, I think this information can be useful The English form of the pronoun "vos" would be the "you" now used throughout the English-speaking domain, as opposed to the archaic "thou" now extinct, that would be equivalent to the word "tú" I think it is important information to add to this article See: Did English ever have a formal version of “you”? English language & usage http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/9780/did-english-ever-have-a-formal-version-of-you --Wikifernand (talk) 02:38, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikifernand

Further reading [moved from article]

 * Acevedo-Halvick, Ana. "Cortesía verbal (introducción)" Voces 1 (2006): 21–72.
 * Almasov, Alexey. "'Vos' and 'Vosotros' as Formal Address in Modern Spanish." Hispania: A Journal Devoted to the Teaching of Spanish and Portuguese 57.2 (1974): 304–310.
 * Alvar, Manuel. Manual de Dialectologia Hispanica: El Español de America. Barcelona : Editorial Ariel, 1996.
 * Arrizabalaga, Carlos. "Noticias de la desaparicion del voseo en la costa norte del Peru." Linguistica Española Actual 23.2 (2001): 257–274.
 * Baumel-Schreffler, Sandra. "The Voseo: Second Person Singular Pronouns in Guatemalan Speech." The Language Quarterly 33.1–2 (1995): 33–44.
 * Benavides, Carlos. "La distribucion del voseo en Hispanoamerica." Hispania: A Journal Devoted to the Teaching of Spanish and Portuguese 86.3 (2003): 612–623.
 * Blanco Botta, Ivonne. "El voseo en Cuba: Estudio sociolinguistico de una zona de la isla." Beitrage zur Romanischen Philologie 21.2 (1982): 291–304.
 * Chart, Ira E. "The voseo and tuteo in America." Modern Language Forum 28.(1944): 17–24.
 * Díaz Collazos, Ana María. (2015). Desarrollo sociolingüístico del voseo en la región andina de Colombia. Berlín, De Gruyter. http://www.degruyter.com/view/product/448526
 * Fontanella de Weinberg, Maria Beatriz. "La constitucion del paradigma pronominal de voseo." Thesaurus: Boletin del Instituto Caro y Cuervo 32.(1977): 227–241.
 * King, Jeremy. "Societal Change and Language History in Cervantes' Entremeses: The Status of the Golden Age Vos." Cervantes: Bulletin of the Cervantes Society of America 29.1 (2009): 167–195.
 * Lapesa, Rafael. "Las formas verbales de segunda persona y los origenes del 'voseo'." Actas del Tercer Congreso Internacional de Hispanistas. 519–531. Mexico: El Colegio de Mexico por la Asociacion Internacional de Hispanistas, 1970.
 * Lapesa, Rafael. Historia de la lengua española. Madrid : Gredos, 1981.
 * Leon-Luporsi, Ana Emilia. Dinamica sociolinguistica e historica de 'vos' en el español peninsular.  Diss. The University of Texas at Austin, 1994.
 * Lipski, John. Latin American Spanish. New York : Longman, 1994.
 * Ortiz, Martha D. "Voseo" in El Salvador. Diss. San Jose State University, 2000
 * Pierris, Marta de. "El preludio del voseo en el español medieval." Romance Philology 31.(1977): 235–243.
 * Pinkerton, Anne. "Observations on the Tú/Vos Option in Guatemalan Ladino Spanish." Hispania: A Journal Devoted to the Teaching of Spanish and Portuguese 69.3 (1986): 690–698.
 * Primorac, Karen Johnson. "Tu, vos, and vuestra merced: Social and Stylistic Variation in Medieval Spanish." Dissertation Abstracts International, Section A: The Humanities and Social Sciences 57.11 (1997): 4720–4721.
 * Quilis, Antonio, and Matilde Graell Stanziola. "El voseo en Panama." Revista de Filologia Española 69.1–2 (1989): 173–178.
 * Rey, Alberto. "Social Correlates of the Voseo of Managua, Nicaragua: Workplace, Street, and Party Domains." Hispanic Journal 18.1 (1997): 109–126.
 * Rey, Alberto. "Social Correlates of the Voseo of Managua, Nicaragua: Workplace, Street, and Party Domains." Hispanic Journal 17.1 (1996): 113–127.
 * Rey, Alberto. "Social Correlates of the Voseo of Managua: Family and Neighborhood Domains." Hispanic Journal 16.1 (1995): 39–53.
 * Stevenson, Jeffrey Lee. "The Sociolinguistic Variables of Chilean Voseo." Dissertation Abstracts International, Section A: The Humanities and Social Sciences 68.5 (2007): 1914–1915.
 * Toursinov, Antón. "Stylistic variability of pronoun addresses in modern Spanish of Guatemala." Language and Literature 17(3). Tyumen State University (2002): 68–78
 * Villegas, Francisco. "The Voseo in Costa Rican Spanish." Hispania: A Journal Devoted to the Teaching of Spanish and Portuguese 46.3 (1963): 612–615.
 * Weeks, Patricia C.. El voseo en Chile: Factores historico-morfologicos que explican su aparicion y mantenimiento.  Diss. State University of New York at Albany, 2005.

I removed an entire section or content item in this talk section
I removed the entirety of a comment because it was written by someone who very clearly does not know the Spanish language. It was a completely clueless opinion by someone ignorant and was published (with a vulgar profanity printed in capital, to boot) just because anyone can write anything on Wikipedia.

In short: the commentator wrote that a perfectly correct conjugation of the verb To Be, in the imperative, was wrong and suggested some atrocious non existent alternatives that no Spanish speaker would ever accept as possible. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.18.11.181 (talk) 03:33, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Possessive pronoun tu
Should we discuss the absence of a separate voseo form for the possessive pronoun (e.g., Pedí aquí tu fría on the billboard)? Peter Chastain  [¡hablá!]  17:39, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what exactly is to be discussed. --Jotamar (talk) 00:07, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As someone who was new to voseo but aware of its historical roots in the second person plural, I would have expected grammatical "agreement" to dictate a possessive pronoun based on vos-, and was surprised that this does not exist. Perhaps you are right—in the interest of keeping it simple, maybe there is nothing to discuss. On the other hand, the historical reasons for that might be interesting. Peter Chastain   [¡hablá!]  20:04, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
 * As a Sociolinguistics buff, I find it obvious that modern voseo arose from a koiné dialect that included both "Tú" dialects and "Vos" dialects. However I don't remember any specific research about the point. --Jotamar (talk) 22:10, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

No mention of voseo in sources added
Hi in the section Countries where voseo occurs in some areas you added "and historically as an official language  " for the Philippines. Firstly, voseo is not a language, much less an official language; then you added two sources, none of which mentions voseo (or tuteo, for that matter) at all. Yes, they are samples of work in which the phenomenon occurs, but that is not how sources are used. Could you please explain? , perhaps you might want to weigh in? Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 11:14, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm unfamiliar with voseo other than very occasionally hearing it. — kwami (talk) 00:31, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * I should've been more precise in that section by referring back to the Spanish language instead of leaving it up to the reader's assumptions. My intention was solely to correct the previous and also unsourced claim that tuteo had been dominant in the Philippines between 1821 and 1946, and substantiating the correction with the only sources currently at my disposal. That being said, seeing that I had used these sources incorrectly, and how the previous claim similarly couldn't be backed up, it might then be better to remove all non-literary mentions of the Philippines in the article until such sources supporting either claim are available. What do you both think? --Pare Mo (talk) 02:05, 11 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks Pare Mo. So, to recap, sources in which a writer uses this or that form are used for research by linguits and related scholars to arrive at theories, conclusions, etc about languages. We then can add those works by scholars as sources to substantiate statements in articles in the Wikipedia. The whole article needs to be cleaned up and written in a manner that reflects that it is about linguistics. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 04:12, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Voseo usage in Honduras
I'm a Honduran born and raised in Honduras, born in San Pedro Sula and lived most of my life in Tegucigalpa. I can assure everyone here that there's no such thing as a 3-tier system here, tú is virtually never used in everyday life here. Not only that, but the source used to say tuteo is used in Honduras is biased. The study referenced was made with Hondurans living in the United States, and the study itself states that the Hondurans interviewed admitted to only using tuteo so they wouldn't stand out to their Mexican peers in their communities over there. I can provide screenshots of advertisements and real life pictures of billboards using voseo in Honduras, but I'd like to see this error fixed and the biased resource taken off. We only use voseo and usted in Honduras. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2803:4600:1113:1BE:14DF:D2E7:B916:6882 (talk) 01:55, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You are right, the source itself confirms it, I've deleted the paragraph. It's a pity though that the source is no longer present in the page. --Jotamar (talk) 10:14, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I made a wikipedia account now! I'll add a paragraph explaining how voseo actually works in Honduras, and hopefully someone can help me edit the map shown in the page since voseo is predominant in Honduras, and also add a picture I took at a mall here. I'd add it myself but this is my first time editing a Wikipedia article and I wouldn't want to mess up the formatting by accident. The picture was taken at City Mall, in Tegucigalpa, Honduras. Pbshepherd (talk)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Pbshepherd (talk • contribs) 16:17, 17 November 2021 (UTC)