Talk:Vulcan Society

Untitled
The initial page used references that were also used on the Vulcan Society Website. Since both describe the same organization and history, it is hard to interpret the guidelines for copyright infringement, since both are created by the same individual. While the new wiki does not use any of the material from the Vulcans website, which is abbreviated anecdotal coverage and does not go into the detail covered in the wiki, new issues have been put forth. To describe an organization that is 70 years old and has a great deal of history behind it, some of the material will be sourced from interviews and anecdotal evidence. While no position is being taken pro or con the organization, there appears to be a bias in accepting the history as given by the no longer living participants, yet this is from oral recorded history and is the only source to reference. It is presented here as a rebuttal to those who reference the Vulcan society in their wiki's without rebuttal and do so based purely from a position that is Anti-Lawsuit (with regards the recently settled court case involving the City of New York and the Plaintiffs/Vulcans.) As such differences of opinion will always exist, then this is a necessary response to those who continue to lash out at the Society for having brought suit in the first place. Each time the History of the Vulcans is taken down on wikipedia, for reasons that don't have a basis in rational discussion, there arises the question of whether it is a valid conclusion that the Wiki is non-factual, or it is being attacked by persons with a agenda that is contrary to what is being reported. If it is the former, then removal is a valid outcome, if the latter, that's the racism continued long after the points were made that the black firefighters were discriminated against, as has been found by the City Council, Fire Commissioners and Mayors of the City of New York. Not to mention a Judge as referenced by the latest court case. Talk about it, agree to dis-agree, but let the truth stay out there for all to make up their own minds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CaptJayRuffins (talk • contribs) 23:27, 26 June 2014‎


 * I have no idea what you're talking about. You seem to think that I'm some enemy of the Vulcan Society who just happens to have noticed this article and decided to make you miserable. I had never heard of the Society till you posted the previous installation of this article. In light of the perfectly ordinary nature of the notifications I posted, coupled with the fact that I was interested to learn about the Society, your outburst is bewildering.


 * Nothing you wrote addresses the issues for which I flagged the page. They are standard, commonly used tags drawing attention to ways in which the article falls short of Wikipedia's guidelines. You will find these tags applied to the least controversial of articles. They in no way imply any antagonistic intent. Indeed, the purpose of every one of the tags I posted is to solicit editors' help in improving the article. There is no persecution going on here, and if you are going to accuse me of racism because I observed that no references are cited, that the article is written like an essay or personal reflection, and that it is full of such glorification as "Wesley Williams is an exceptional man" (which, even if true, doesn't belong here), then you are dealing with me in bad faith, which is a violation of Wikipedia guidelines. —Largo Plazo (talk) 00:41, 27 June 2014 (UTC)


 * If you're interested in learning about Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, so as to help you appreciate the purposes of the tags, please refer to the links in the Welcome section that was posted to your talk page. —Largo Plazo (talk) 00:49, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Some of the text removed from the latest article (First Black, Second Black, third Black, FDNY from the title,) go to what I said before. We Vulcans have been subject to discrimination in our history such that we are always wary when it appears that a 'whitewash' is in progress. Removing the FDNY from the title when the Vulcans are a Fraternal organization that exists ONLY in the FDNY, at first blush, to our wary eyes is an attempt to remove us from the mainstream FDNY and paint us as 'other'. We will correct the deficiencies, given quarter, but will not yield to the notion that we do not have a place at the table of Wikipedia. For 75 years the Vulcan Society has been fighting discrimination in all forms, do not think that we will give up now...

Text moved from article
I removed this text from the article, as it should not be on that page:-


 * Note: This wiki will be up for review, the original was removed due to alleged copyright violation with the Vulcan Society website for repeating a portion of a speech I wrote for a dedication of a statue honoring Battalion Chief Wesley Williams which was not attributed to me. My Apologies for any confusion this may have caused... J.Ruffins Capt Ret. FDNY.

Comment
Whilst I believe the subject of this article is notable and so deserves an article, as it currently stands, it could well be deleted again, because it is totally unreferenced. None of the interviews you have had with former members are acceptable sources of information, as they are not verifiable in reliable, independent sources.

You need to find, and include, such sources quickly. You do refer to "an article in the New York Times" this needs to be made into a proper reference (see referencing for beginners) and information in that article cross referenced in the article - you also need to find more such references.

You also need to remove the personal comments and observations, as well as the peacock phrases such as "The Society has been blessed with leaders" "for seven long years". - Arjayay (talk) 08:21, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your insights, we are indebted to you for your pointed comments. Please realize that at 90, this is an entirely foreign medium and I'm barely keeping up with the topics you're discussing. About the references, I am now working on creating links to other articles on Wikipedia, like to J.Walter Christie who manufactured the Christie Tractor mentioned. To Cohen & Gresser, the court appointed monitor to oversee the settlement of the law suit, and the Chicago Defender, Tammany Hall & Fire Marshal pages mentioned. There are so many I have to put my energy into only a small portion each day, lest I be worn out by too much time spent on the computer. I don't know how to make links, like -Smith, Terrence (Nov 24th, 1965) Lindsay selects negro as first fire commissioner, New York Times-... Etc. I am working on this, and will eventually correct all the short-comings. I would hope that others would help in the editing, rather than what I have already seen, some 'editor' removing the entry wholesale.


 * Please understand: When the article was deleted, it was because it was evidently a copyright violation. In that situation, removal is required, as a matter of law. That problem is resolved, the Society does appear to meet Wikipedia's guidelines for inclusion, and I expect that others will be happy to work on this article. —Largo Plazo (talk) 21:17, 27 June 2014 (UTC) —Largo Plazo (talk) 21:15, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

AcceptedCaptJayRuffins (talk) 13:44, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Medals section
Needs to be cleaned up or unified, no reason to have the awarded medal listed after each persons’ name if they were awarded the same medal Doghouse09 (talk) 16:20, 19 May 2019 (UTC)