Talk:Vuvuzela/Archive 5

Various horns
There's a lot of controversy over which nation / individual invented the "vuvuzela", primarily because there are many different types of similar horns, many of which date back thousands of years (war horns, warning horns and celebratory horns were used by many cultures throughout history). Which type of horn the vuvuzela is most similar to is a debate which is likely to never end. I think the most important things to put in the origin section is when was the term vuvuzela first used to describe a horn, and how did the vuvuzelas we now see in football matches become popular? Comments welcome.  Giftiger Wunsch   [TALK]  10:17, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, as more sourcing unfolds on this, the word's etymology could have lots of sway. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:30, 13 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Before we begin, what is a trumpet, a (French) horn and a blowing horn? Whatever the definition, they all require the flow of air to produce sound. The origins of these blowing instruments are truly unknown, and it is unlikely that we'll ever know. This also applies to the vuvuzela. This Wikipedia article states the vuvuzela is a blowing horn, meaning it was inspired or created by a horn of an animal? This is also disputed, and a way to avoid this is not use labels. I need clarification. We are not interested in who created the first instrument that requires the flow of air to produce sound, we are interested in who created the first shape and structure of a particular instrument, in this case the vuvuzela, correct?  Davtra   (talk) 12:52, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, we want to know the origin of the vuvuzela; there are articles for plenty of other types of horn: French horn, Alpine horn, English horn, etc. The question is where did the word originate, and what distinguishes it from other types of horns?  Giftiger Wunsch   [TALK]  14:24, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Irrelevant information in Origin section
"South African Kaizer Chiefs fan Freddie "Saddam" Maake"

It is completely irrelevant whether Freddie Maake is or isn't a Kaizer Chiefs fan. This needs to be removed.

Fujo Lumos (talk) 07:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)Fujo


 * Given the horn is noted for its use at sports events, it would be highly relevant to readers that an early model was built by a sports enthusiast and moreover, naming the club he followed would be meaningful biographical information. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:16, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with Fujo Lumos. South African Kaizer Chiefs fan comes out of nowhere and doesn't fit in. I excluded that when I rewrote the section but an editor re-added it. The article doesn't even mention about the club. It would fit in if that section told Maake's story (from the beginning) about how he created the his vuvuzela.  Davtra   (talk) 08:39, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The wording could indeed be tweaked to make it less jarring and the section could most likely do with a bit more background on Maake, but cutting out verifiable content about the origins would not be helpful to readers. Gwen Gale (talk) 08:45, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I noticed this myself and found it strange until I saw the target of the link; at first I thought it referred to Kaiser Chiefs the band. I agree with Gwen Gale on this one, it is verifiable and adds information about (one claim of) the origin. Perhaps it could be reworded slightly to make it clearer why it's relevant though.  Giftiger Wunsch   [TALK]  09:55, 14 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, it should be kept if it's worded correctly (we'll get there ).  Davtra   (talk) 10:23, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Did NOT originate in South Africa
I'm really surprised everyone is buying into this propaganda that this horn used at football matches originated in South Africa... South Africa merely embraced it, but it was used LONG before in Latin America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.102.201.14 (talk) 18:16, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * And I assume you can source that?  Giftiger Wunsch   [TALK]  20:08, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I am surprised that this an argument. The Vuvuzela (a Zulu word meaning "Feel it") was used throughout South Africa BEFORE the first Europeans landed on African soil. Variety of animal horns were used, each with a different sound and purpose e.g. for parties, in battles, a cry forhelp, in courts for restoring order. Vuvuzela has been used in South Africa for more than 5000 years. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.202.5.161 (talk • contribs) 09:42, 13 July 2010


 * Again, sources would be most welcome. Gwen Gale (talk) 09:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Would this be citation enough? Benmfowler (talk) 23:11, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Amusement
What about a section about people's amusement to the vuvuzela? For example, there's Vuvuzela Hero and many games that test how long it takes before they drive you mad. ~ Wikipedian19265478 (talk) 23:31, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Banned at London 2012?
Could somebody cite this, because I'm not sure if its true... I can find speculative articles, people saying that it should be, but nothing concrete saying it is. Benmfowler (talk) 23:13, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I've re-inserted the claim with an attendant cite from the BBC News website. Looks like they are attempting to ban them. Ka Faraq Gatri (talk) 22:31, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Horn vs. Trumpet, and other words
Based on the above discussion, it seems there will be an expansion to the Origins section which is great. But before that, I want to go through some definitions. The words in the lead section may need modification. The lead section currently labels the vuvuzela as a horn. But what is a horn? Other external articles label the vuvuzela as a trumpet. But what is a trumpet? Unfortunately, I don't think I can copy and paste the definitions directly from dictionaries (copyright violation ). I used Macquarie Dictionary (Australian English) and Oxford Dictionaries (American English and World English). You can access Oxford Dictionaries.

Horn: A horn is a wind instrument, originally made from the hollow horn of an animal, often curved.

Trumpet: A wind instrument, has a cup-shaped mouthpiece at one end and a bell at the other.

Based on the above definition, horns may have curvature in its structure. The plastic vuvuzela isn't curved, and the vuvuzela appears to better match the definition trumpet than horn (and also resembling that of a trumpet). At this stage, I think it's best to avoid labelling the vuvuzela as either a trumpet or horn. I also looked at other definitions: device, instrument, musical instrument and music.

Device: an invention, a thing made.

Instrument: a mechanical device, a tool.

Musical instrument: an object or device that produces musical sounds.

Music: art or science of organising sounds to express ideas and emotions through the elements of harmony, rhythm, melody.

Based on the above definitions, I think it's best and "safe" to label the vuvuzela as a device rather than an instrument, horn or trumpet. One could argue that the vuvuzela is a musical instrument as it expresses emotion, while others could argue that it is not because it doesn't produce beautiful music. Here is the proposed wording change in the lead section (it doesn't modify the meaning, it is just careful wording):

"The vuvuzela, also known as lepatata (its Tswana name), is typically a 65 cm plastic device that requires the flow of air to produce a loud, distinctive monotone note, typically around B♭3. A similar device, known as the corneta, is used in Brazil and other Latin American countries."

The proposed words should be used throughout the entire article. Do you agree with the changes? Your thoughts?  Davtra  (talk) 01:22, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I think that you've made an excellent parsing of the terms and arrived at the right choice. I'm tempted to say that "instrument" would be OK to use except that it would probably be misconstrued as "musical instrument", thus spawning interminable unnecessary comments on its musicality. So I agree: it would be best to use "device" throughout the article. SteveStrummer (talk) 07:01, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes, my thoughts exactly.  Davtra   (talk) 08:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

I've changed this back to 'horn'. By any definition you want to use, it's a horn and I can't see any problem calling it such. Something that is blown into to produce a noise. Deconstruction of it into words like 'device' are unhelpfully vague, you may as well call it a 'thing', it tells the reader nothing useful. And the wording of "requires the flow of air to produce" is so much talking around the houses just to say "blown", particularly when no explanation is given as to what "the flow of air" referred to is, and where it has come from. All this is self-evident and not worth mentioning if it is called a horn. -- Escape Orbit (Talk) 16:39, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yep, good changes.  Davtra   (talk) 06:55, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Stadium Horns
"These plastic horns have been marketed and available in the United States as "Stadium Horns" since the mid-1960s[citation needed]. " -- 7/30/2010 I have no idea how to cite this but if you watch the Ken Burns series Baseball, in the 8th inning episode whilst discussing Gibson's dominance, there is a crowd shot of Fenway. In the upper left corner of the frame, two Vuvuzelas are clearly visible. This link does not exist. So obviously this could be used as a citation but I have no clue how I would go about citing 1:22:12 into the 8th part of a documentary. 01:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilrosewood (talk • contribs)
 * Thanks for bringing this up. In regards to your source, you could fill in the gaps (as much as you can) using this template: cite episode. This citation template could be added into the article. There is an example on how to fill in the citation template at the bottom of that page.  Davtra   (talk) 01:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Stole your thunder, added the cite - apologies Corella (talk) 09:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The Citations provided in this section are dubious

Meme Status
The vuvuzela has been a running gag on the internet since the 2010 FIFA World Cup in South Africa. I was wondering if it should be put into the "Internet Memes" catergory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EverybodyPayTheLizzard (talk • contribs) 02:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Stadium Horns
"These plastic horns have been marketed and available in the United States as "Stadium Horns" since the mid-1960s[citation needed]. " -- 7/30/2010 I have no idea how to cite this but if you watch the Ken Burns series Baseball, in the 8th inning episode whilst discussing Gibson's dominance, there is a crowd shot of Fenway. In the upper left corner of the frame, two Vuvuzelas are clearly visible. This link does not exist. So obviously this could be used as a citation but I have no clue how I would go about citing 1:22:12 into the 8th part of a documentary. 01:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilrosewood (talk • contribs)
 * Thanks for bringing this up. In regards to your source, you could fill in the gaps (as much as you can) using this template: cite episode. This citation template could be added into the article. There is an example on how to fill in the citation template at the bottom of that page.  Davtra   (talk) 01:27, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Stole your thunder, added the cite - apologies Corella (talk) 09:13, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

The Citations provided in this section are dubious

Meme Status
The vuvuzela has been a running gag on the internet since the 2010 FIFA World Cup in South Africa. I was wondering if it should be put into the "Internet Memes" catergory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EverybodyPayTheLizzard (talk • contribs) 02:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)