Talk:W. W. Phelps (Mormon)

Untitled
Is there any info about his reconciliation with the church after his first excommunication.

Is there info on the book "Praise to the Man"?

Are they any known photos of him?

Adding info about reconciliation 76.27.83.192 (talk) 02:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The current article says he got a Book of Mormon from Pratt on 9 Apr 1830, yet Pratt wasn't introduced to the church until about Sept 1830. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.148.124 (talk) 01:18, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Assistant President of the Church/Counselor to David Whitmer in the presidency
I don't see Phelps anywhere in Assistant President of the Church nor Chronology of the First Presidency (LDS Church). Can someone clarify for me what "He was an assistant president of the church in Missouri, scribe to .." and "...counselor to David Whitmer in the presidency.." means. "Assistant President of the Church" and "Counselor in the presidency" are general authority position that, as far as I can see, Phelps nor David Whitmer ever held. However, I notice the capitalization and addition of "in Missouri", so perhaps I just don't understand the position these two statements are making..--ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:39, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
 * This is clarified with more detail in the remainder of the article (see the heading labeled "Joins Church leadership"). If there are no further requests I suggest we remove the clarification request. Sources for this are numerous. For example see the entry for September 26, 1835 on the Phelps Timeline. For what it's worth Joseph's diary account of the Kirtland Dedication (27 March 1836) lists the order of seating on the "West end of the House" as "Pres[i]d[en]t F[rederick] G. Williams, President Joseph Smith, Sen[ior], and President W[illiam] W. Phelps occupied the 1st pulpit for the Melchisedic Priesthood. Pres[i]d[en]t S[idney] Rigdon, myself, and Pres[i]d[en]t Hyrum Smith in the 2nd [pulpit]. Pres[i]d[en]t D[avid] Whitmer, Pres[i]d[en]t O[liver] Cowdery, and Pres[i]d[en]t J[ohn] Whitmer in the 3d [pulpit]. The 4th [pulpit] was occipied by the President of the High Priests and his counsellors, and 2 choiresters." [An American Prophet's Record: The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith ed. Scott H. Faulring (Salt Lake City, Utah: Signature Books, 1989), 143.] In total there were nine people that Joseph called presidents of the church, present at the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. To address your other question, the term scribe is just like it sounds, Joseph would frequently dictate while others wrote for him. Although dictating to a scribe is virtually nonexistent today, before the advent of the typewriter or modern personal computer it was fairly common practice. --dbolton (talk) 03:35, 13 December 2011 (UTC)
 * In today's parlance of the LDS Church, Phelps would have been a member of the stake presidency in Missouri; or perhaps a better example—a member of the Area presidency in Missouri. The people with these positions were not general authorities of the church, but they were designated as "assistant president of the church" in particular areas. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:49, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Excommunication date
I am confused about his excommunication date(s). The Joseph Smith Papers summary of WWP says he was excommunicated on March 17, 1838, based on JS History, vol. C-1, 899. http://josephsmithpapers.org/person/william-wines-phelps But the Alexander Baugh 1998 article says that after the March 10, 1838 meeting Phelps was considered "no longer a member of the Church of Christ", but later there was a reconciliation, followed by another falling out, which resulted in WWP being excommunicated by the Twelve at a council in Quincy on March 17, 1839. Baugh cites HC 3:283–84. The JSP do not say anything about a 1839 excommunication. The identical "March 17" dates for two different years is a red flag that there is a mistake somewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Befubashi (talk • contribs) 07:38, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

The first excommunication was March 10, 1838, as seen in JSP: https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/minute-book-2/110

The second was March 17, 1839, as seen in History of the Church, Vol. 3, Chapter 20.

The text of the article as it stands is erroneous in using March 17 for both instances.

--RockRockOn (talk) 09:09, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Assistant president of the church in Missouri
Again, calling him "assistant president of the church in Missouri" is extremely misleading. Only people with deep understanding of Latter Day Saint history understand what it really meant by that term. As this issue has been tagged as "[clarification needed]" since December of 2011, it should be fixed soon or removed.

There is a huge difference between the "Assistant President of the Church" position and Phelps's position. The way it is read now, it suggest that Phelps's held a position in the First Presidency, not unlike Oliver Cowdery, Hyrum Smith and John C. Bennett, which he did not.

According to statements above by Good Ol’factory, this position was more like stake presidency or area presidency in Missouri. Simply changing the following would make it much clearer:

He was an assistant president of the church in Missouri (analogous to a modern stake president), scribe to Joseph Smith, Jr., and a church printer, editor, and song-writer

However, I do not know which one (stake presidency or area presidency). If that is determined, I will fix it.--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 18:59, 19 November 2014 (UTC)


 * I guess there's not really an exact parallel to any position in the LDS Church today. But comparing it to either a stake presidency or an area presidency would probably be OK. I would tend to favor comparing it to an area presidency, only because in that day they did have stake presidencies, and they were not designated as a stake presidency.
 * This Missouri presidency was put in charge of the church in Missouri, simply because it was a long way away from church headquarters and communications were slow: they had to have someone on the ground who could make decisions on behalf of the church in an area where things were volatile and quickly changing. We could compare it to a modern area presidency, but even that is not a great analogy. The Missouri presidency probably had more intrinsic authority than today's area presidencies, simply because today, an area presidency can easily contact church headquarters for advice or direction if something really significant or unique comes up. Similarly, it's quite easy for stake presidents to contact church headquarters or their own area presidency in difficult circumstances. The Missouri presidency would have usually made such decisions themselves.
 * But you are correct that this was not the position of Assistant President of the Church. He was not a member of the First Presidency. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm all for saying anything, especially since I have no idea what to put down.
 * My issues has always been that I don't think it's good the way it is now as it is very confusing. The first time I read it I had to ask (above) why he wasn't on the list of Assistant Presidents of the Church if he was one.
 * Anyway: how about changing it to this:


 * He was a printer, editor, song-writer, scribe to Joseph Smith, Jr., and assistant president of the church in Missouri (analogous to a modern stake or Area president, but with more more intrinsic authority and autonomy).


 * I think that makes it much clearer that this was a position that wasn't church wide, and wasn't a member of the First Presidency.
 * What do you think?--- ARTEST4ECHO (talk) 14:59, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * It's better than what currently exists. I do wonder if the parenthetical is too wordy/explanatory for a lead, but what else could be done? I suppose the only other option would be to put the parenthetical information in a footnote. I'm fine with whichever is done; as I said, it would be an improvement either way. Good Ol’factory (talk) 20:57, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

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Citation for Third Excommunication
The link for the Historical Department Journal is broken, it can now be found here: https://catalog.churchofjesuschrist.org/assets?id=5f3e87b2-b0a0-4033-82a5-8698f11200d7&crate=0&index=24

This link is the page which describes Phelps's reconfirmation as a member of the church, but two days prior (as the article text states) I see nothing.

Pointers?

--RockRockOn (talk) 18:09, 18 October 2019 (UTC)

Recommend Moving Page
I recommend moving the page to W. W. Phelps (Latter Day Saints) in keeping with convention on Wikipedia. Pending any objections I will make the change. Epachamo (talk) 01:34, 26 January 2020 (UTC)