Talk:WES Commuter Rail/Archive 1

Logos
It seems pretty weird to me to see the highways use the logos instead of just simple names: "Oregon Route and Interstate " I haven't seen this done outside of this article. Cacophony (talk) 23:04, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced material
With the deadline for the start-up of WES approaching, I got a bit heavy-handed here. (I first discussed the matter with User:Aboutmovies, who has a continuing interest in the article.) I don't like to remove other peoples' work, and I try to avoid it by tracking down sources for unsourced material. In this frustrating case, I could not find sources that exactly matched many of the claims in the "History" section. I saved as much as I could without allowing violations of WP:V to continue within the article. I think the article claims are now verifiable. It should be relatively easy to add new material. I assume more is available and that more will be forthcoming when WES sallies forth with passengers later this fall. Finetooth (talk) 19:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It looks a lot better. I think we need to re-do the lead, way too long, and try and find more third party sources. Then maybe a section on "equipment" and "service/stations" or the like. Aboutmovies (talk) 21:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Good ideas. I saw data about the equipment and the five stations in the Tri-Met material. The cities of Tigard and Beaverton as well as Washington County look like other possible sources. Ditto for the Oregonian, Portland Tribune, and maybe some of the smaller newspapers. You are right about the lead. It does not now conform to the suggestions at WP:LEAD. I will return to this article as time allows, but perhaps others will have at it with hammer and tong. Finetooth (talk) 03:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I think I've fixed the lead, now just needs a little expansion here and there (maybe some more sourcing too) and we could take it to GA. Aboutmovies (talk) 00:38, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Map
Any possibility of an actual map of the route? -Pete (talk) 01:24, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've made a few maps using Census maps for the base. I think I could use a Census map base and add details based on the commuter rail map published by TriMet plus details from street maps and road maps in my personal library. Maps are time-consuming, so I don't want to attempt this unless we have consensus that it's a good idea. If you'd like a map, what details, if any, would you like it to show beyond the WES route, the five stations, and I-5? Finetooth (talk) 18:02, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess I ask because I don't really have a clear picture of where it goes -- I think any notable locations along the route would be helpful, but I don't really know what those are. Major roads, borders of cities, downtown cores, colleges...? I wonder if we should ask, who has done some cool stuff with maps from data from the TriMet site. -Pete (talk) 23:15, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It runs north-south pretty close to Highway 217. I haven't yet encountered . Could you give him a buzz and see what he thinks? Finetooth (talk) 23:47, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I left him a note. You might want to take a look at Image:TriMet MAX Light Rail map.svg, which was recently up for Featured Picture. He used data that TriMet makes publicly available, for services like Google Transit. As for the route -- I guess I'm just enough of an east sider that I don't really know what places along 217 should be included. -Pete (talk) 01:22, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Supercool! I had not seen any of these terrific maps before. I would have no idea how to make anything as sophisticated as these. Since WES hooks into the TriMet system on the north side of Beaverton, maybe will be enticed to expand his existing TriMet map somehow. That would be great. Finetooth (talk) 02:57, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This is the response I left for Pete on my talk page:
 * Well, its not like my MAX map got featured... But seriously, I don't know if WES has been added to the scheduling data that I'd use since its not quite operating yet.  However, I'll try to ask if they have it geo-coded internally yet (same for MAX Green Line data).  It is already on the PDF system map, and another way would be to copy it from there.  (In case you don't know, Inkscape has amazed me by being able to actually edit PDFs).  In fact, I already need to bug them about a missing bus stop.
 * The other issue I have is getting data representing 217 and I-5, and maybe major streets. Considering the closeness of those highways to the line and how WES is supposed to be an alternative to them, I think it would be good if those were on the map. Jason McHuff (talk) 03:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

I would have no idea how to make a map using your methods. I'd have to start learning the methods and the theory behind them and then practice, practice, I imagine. On the other hand, I have no trouble finding base maps with highways, streets, parks, rail lines, and other features through the U.S. Census factfinder site. Here's an extremely messy example of one of many possible starting points : |b=50|l=en|t=420|zf=0.0|ms=ref_ma_00dec|dw=0.42661088049327467|dh=0.22372116411799178|dt=gov.census.aff.domain.map.EnglishMapExtent|if=gif|cx=-122.77135936791494|cy=45.43159388886193|zl=5|pz=5|bo=314:319|bl=355|ft=331:332:335:336|fl=|g=04000US41&-redoLog=false&-errMsg=&-geo_id=04000US41&-_lang=en sample showing railroads. Wilsonville is the pink area at the bottom center, and you can see the rail line that WES will follow. Finetooth (talk) 21:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Whoever wants to make a map using whichever process, I think these are the things that should be included:
 * Context items: I-205, Willamette River, Oregon Route 8, U.S. 26, Washington Square, and Portland.
 * WES related items: I-5, Oregon 217, Beaverton, Tigard, Tualatin, Wilsonville, all 5 stations, MAX Blue/Red lines.
 * Obviously keep it pretty zoomed in on Portland's westside, so only those parts of the above items that would fit on the map. For the highways I'd use the highway shields, and then maybe some sort of station icon for the stops. Just my thoughts. Aboutmovies (talk) 21:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It's not real hard making maps like the ones I have made. It just requires latitude/longitude data for each of the things to be mapped (for roads, boundaries, etc a list of lats/lons that make up the path that the thing follows), the data be converted using the formula I've put in the map descriptions, and some knowledge of how to insert the data into Scalable Vector Graphics elements.  The problem is finding data which says e.g. 217 follows the path of 45.xxx N/122.xxx W, 45.yyy N/122.yyy W,...  I'd strongly prefer official data to comply with the "no original research" theme. Jason McHuff (talk) 02:51, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * UPDATE: I just checked the TriMet scheduling data, and they already have data that is to take effect November 30th. It includes "WES (Commuter Rail)" as (internal) route 203 [see routes.txt] and 11/30 could be when they plan to start WES service.  I might try to do a basic map soon (actually, I might be able to add 99W, OR 8, etc by using data for the bus routes that travel on those streets). Jason McHuff (talk) 03:11, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I think your kind of map would be much better here than my kind. I really like your MAX maps. Please go for it if you have the inclination and can get the data. Finetooth (talk) 04:34, 30 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Also, slightly off-topic (but see Talk:MAX Light Rail), but at least two people mentioned "Light rail to Portland" in the Salem-Keizer Transit board retreat last December. Jason McHuff (talk) 03:46, 29 September 2008 (UTC)


 * There is already a line diagram/map on this page using the wikipedia rail diagram markup. I'm not convinced that anything more is necessary. Bill (talk) 07:08, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
 * While that map is useful for the transit rider to know which stop is next, it provides little context for those people not familiar with the area. A more generalized map of the area provides this context and better demonstrates the distance between the stops as I doubt they are evenly spaced as they appear on the line map. I personally do not need a map as I am familiar with the area, the line, and the stations, but someone from the Eastside of the Portland area (as indicated above) may not be as familiar with the area, and people from say New York City may think this is near Seattle. That is hyperbole, but hopefully it demonstrates the need for context, especially given Americans well known lack of geographic sense. Aboutmovies (talk) 19:05, 6 October 2008 (UTC)