Talk:WPBB

Requested move 4 February 2015

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved. There are no outstanding oppose votes, and I don't see any problem with it. On the question of project specific naming conventions, these may be useful for cases where there is no clear WP:COMMONNAME, such as this one - applying the change of call sign quickly does conform to the guideline there. Ordinarily those project specific conventions wouldn't trump WP:COMMONNAME though, IMHO, which is part of a policy. &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 13:52, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

WHFS-FM → WBRN-FM – reflect new call letters --Relisted. Andrewa (talk) 23:02, 12 February 2015 (UTC) 2600:1006:B063:391F:0:27:C973:A701 (talk) 22:39, 4 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose : Station's callsign remains WHFS-FM. No page moves (or changes to the callsigns on the page) should be made until callsign is changed via the FCC, per CRYSTAL. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 09:37, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I have left this user a heads-up that evidence that the FCC has effected the change has now been provided. Andrewa (talk) 09:37, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Just checked the FCC website and WHFS-FM has indeed changed their callsign to WBRN-FM. The page move has my Support to move to WBRN-FM. -  Neutralhomer  •  Talk  • 14:25, 17 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Oppose but relisting, and I have reverted the preemptive move by . If the callsign remains WHFS-FM as claimed above and not contradicted, then there's no case for a move at all. Andrewa (talk) 22:58, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Support (change of vote) now that evidence has been provided,  but please follow the procedures, see Requested moves/Closing instructions and discussion below. Andrewa (talk) 20:40, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong support. It appears, per the FCC, the callsign actually was changed the same day the move request was made.  Source:  http://licensing.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/cdbs/pubacc/prod/call_hist.pl?Facility_id=18527&Callsign=WBRN-FM .  WP:CRYSTAL doesn't apply here. -- JeffBillman (talk) 00:47, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for that link. See discussion below. Andrewa (talk) 20:27, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Support The callsign IS WBRN-FM, per JeffBillman. John123521  (Talk-Contib.) RA 03:01, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * If there is no any comments after the deadline reached, I would like to move. - John123521 (Talk-Contib.) RA 03:58, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please do not move it (again) without first reading Requested moves/Closing instructions, see discussion below. Andrewa (talk) 21:00, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Discussion
WikiProject Radio Stations should also be consulted. There has been some controversy in the past over the status of such conventions, particularly those not linked to from WP:AT, and this one isn't even in Category:Wikipedia naming conventions, but it's still worth a read IMO. Andrewa (talk) 23:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Radio station callsigns may be a special case of official names in that the official change of name may be good evidence that the new name is already in common use. In Australia and I would expect other parts of the world, it is a legal requirement for the station to use its callsign. I think this needs exploring further. The first step in this is to see how this RM goes, now that the relevant evidence has been provided.

As this result may well impact naming conventions, it's important to follow the process, so that consensus is clear and can be quoted in further discussions. It's not the place to invoke WP:SNOW. Andrewa (talk) 20:58, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move closure
are you sure this page should have been moved? There seems no consensus to move above, and the proposed new name appears to me to violate policy on several counts. Andrewa (talk) 01:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


 * In that there's no reply, and that the RM had not been closed but the move performed, I've reverted the move and relisted the RM. If there are arguments in favour, make them. Andrewa (talk) 23:00, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Support move. Per FCC query performed Thu Feb 12 19:13:54 2015 Eastern time, the call sign now has changed.  Please see http://transition.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/fmq?call=WBRN -- JeffBillman (talk) 00:21, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with JeffBillman. John123521  (Talk-Contib.) RA 03:06, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Please both follow the closing instructions, see above. It's worth investing a little time in this so as to save time when other similar moves are proposed. The naming conventions probably need a tweak, and it shouldn't be hard to get consensus for this tweak IMO, and that will save us a lot of time in the future. Andrewa (talk) 20:45, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks again for the link. Andrewa (talk) 20:46, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Because I was involved in the above vote, I'm not comfortable with closing this move request. I invite others to do so, per 's suggestion. I'll also seek out a trusted admin, although IMO an admin probably isn't needed for this one. Cheers! -- JeffBillman (talk) 20:08, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Disagree that non-admin closure is appropriate, in fact I think this is a classic case. Being an admin is no big thing, an admin is basically just one who is trusted to know and follow the rules, and who is therefore given some more powerful tools than most users. In this case we have already seen some blatant violation of the normal procedures, I assume because of ignorance of them, but that's certainly a time to call in the admins. Andrewa (talk) 10:57, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
 * And there seems at least some openness to this view. I'm not wanting to add to the backlog but I do think an admin closure is now important, not just to resolve this move request (for which we now seem to now have a strong consensus, that's not mine to call but see below) but more important to provide evidence for the tweak to the naming conventions which I've already foreshadowed.


 * Just to recap, Assuming this does close with strong consensus to move, that will IMO require a quite significant change to the essay at WP:official names, but before that is at all helpful we first need a small but also significant change to the official article naming conventions, which is not to be taken lightly. Probably the way to go is to establish an official convention for radio station callsigns, there is already an unofficial one maintained by the wikiproject but we need one linked to from the sidebar of WP:AT and getting consensus for that is I think possible but certainly not trivial. Andrewa (talk) 20:44, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


 * What are you talking about? The official name is the callsign.  The callsign is now WBRN-FM.  I fail to see why this is such an outlier to WP:official names.  This isn't the first time a radio station changed its callsign.  -- JeffBillman (talk) 23:52, 27 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Agree that The official name is the callsign. The callsign is now WBRN-FM. But you seem to have misunderstood both WP:official names and the policy on which it is based... as do many, that's why the essay reads in part People often assume that, where an official name exists for the subject of a Wikipedia article, that name is ipso facto the correct title for the article, and that if the article is under another title then it should be moved. The fact that the official name is the callsign is almost irrelevant under our current guidelines. So, what I'm talking about is an addition to the guidelines, because unlike nearly all other articles, in the case of a radio station the official name (that being the callsign) is very relevant to choosing the article title. That's what makes this an outlier, and I think we should therefore have an official guideline to support moves such as this.


 * Which brings us to another common misconception... it's often assumed that if a Wikiproject obtains consensus within its members for a naming convention covering their topic area, that makes it official. It doesn't. Again, the essay addresses this, if only in passing. Andrewa (talk) 11:40, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


 * This is true, Andrew, but another point about official name is that the official name is almost always a contender to be the page title. I'm pretty sure that used to be written down somewhere, but I can't find it now. So as I see it, specific guidelines such as that at the radio stations WikiProject, and also things like WP:NCROY exist because in those realms there is some factor that makes it extremely hard to identity what might be the common name. The WikiProjct guidelines do not in any way overrule WP:AT or WP:COMMONNAME, but they provide some guidance for what to do in unclear situations. With a radio station, the majority of listeners will know the brandname moniker, "Magic 107.7" or whatever, while those dealing with the station in a professional capacity may refer to it by its callsigns. Thus the official name (the callsign) is a contender to be the actual common name. Thus the move above doesn't imply anything new in regard to that. The official name has changed, which means the contender to be the common name has changed too. The old official name is in many ways much less a contender than any other once the change takes place, since sources will stop using it fairly quickly, unlike other commonly used non-official names. What I would avoid is putting specific exceptions such as callsigns into the generalised article title policies or the official names essay. They are unique to their situation, and if in future the common use of callsigns fell out of fashion, we would not want to be wedded to a guideline that contradicts the other policies.  &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 14:55, 1 March 2015 (UTC)


 * Some very good points. The official name is always a contender, and that's one of the key points of the essay at WP:official names. No, WP:NCROY exists in order to avoid ambiguity, and says that, but more important, it's official in a way that the current topic specific convention for radio stations is not.


 * The question of callsign versus brandname monicker is also a good one. In Australia, there has been a drift away from callsigns during my lifetime, but it's far from complete, 2GB in Sydney for example is hardly ever called anything else, however 2FC was once in the same category and is no longer, for some complex reasons (basically the increasing networking of other radio stations, and 2FC which was always heavily networked has followed the resulting naming trend). Times change, and I expect this also varies from country to country depending not so much on the regulations (which are fairly standard internationally) but on the local interpretations of them. Andrewa (talk) 06:12, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Post move
See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Radio Stations and please comment there. Andrewa (talk) 01:23, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Moving page to WPBB
Is it legitimate to move the page from WBRN-FM to WPBB? There are no records updating this change so far.

Alex jirgens (talk) 15:42, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 22 February 2017

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 08:05, 1 March 2017 (UTC)

WPBB → WBRN-FM – No source about callsign change to WPBB. FCC still lists it as WBRN-FM.  John123521  ( Talk - Contib. ) RA  02:20, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Support. If and when we can confirm that the station has officially changed its call sign, then moving it to WPBB will be appropriate. But as long as the FCC records still list it as WBRN, we have to leave it there regardless of what the station may claim about itself. We had a not entirely dissimilar situation in Canada a few years back, when CKFM-FM briefly started identifying its call sign as CFMX-FM, shortly after the former CFMX changed its call sign to CFMZ-FM — but it had to revert back to CKFM within a few days, because CFMZ hadn't changed the call sign of its repeater transmitter CFMX-FM-1. So the fact that the station had started using a different call sign for itself was not controlling on the title of our article about it, in the absence of an actual authorization to do so from Industry Canada. Radio stations do have a bit of an unfortunate habit sometimes of doing the thing they want to do first and then going to the FCC or the CRTC/IC to get the authorization they needed to do it, assuming it'll just get rubber-stamped as a done deal — but we have to wait until the proper approvals are actually issued. And per the above move discussion, it looks like this isn't even the first time this station has pulled this stunt. Bearcat (talk) 22:12, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Support: Even if the station is identifying as WPBB on the air, I cannot find anything to indicate that the call letters have changed — or, for that matter, that the station has even requested a call change. (The "call sign query" side of the FCC's call sign desk only lists one entry for WPBB — a remnant listing for a never-built low-power FM station in DeWitt, New York, obviously unrelated to WBRN-FM.) Per naming conventions, articles on U.S. radio stations are titled at the official call sign — and it even notes that "[e]ven stations themselves do not always use correct call signs." (Even more confusingly, the station's website still refers to "WBRN" at the bottom of every page, while its general contest rules refer to "WBPP", a call sign I cannot find any evidence of being used or requested either — the aforementioned call sign query search lists that call sign as still being available (i.e., it is not currently assigned to any station). Its "Song of the Day" contest rules manage to at different points refer to both WPBB and WBPP. This does indicate that they do seem to want to change the call sign from WBRN-FM, but until this actually happens — and it becomes absolutely clear what the new call sign is, since even the station can't seem to decide — the article title needs to remain what the FCC lists.) -- WC  Quidditch  &#9742;   &#9998;  20:15, 26 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moving page to WPBB
The FCC database has finally shown a change of call letters to WPBB as of February 1, 2017. As to why it took so long to show on the FCC's database, I'm not sure. May have had to do something with the personnel change after Trump's inauguration (as is typical when a new President comes in), maybe not. It is safe to say that WBRN-FM should move to WPBB. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alex jirgens (talk • contribs) 02:16, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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 * 98.7 The Shark WPBB Holmes Beach.png