Talk:Wagga Wagga/Archive 1

Army recruits
I made a small change to the wording in the defence section, I changed it from Australian regular army to Australian Army, as both ARA and GRes soldier go through Kapooka.--122.109.27.195 (talk) 06:40, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

request for comment
I've only ever heard of this lore told as the 5 o'clock wave - not 4 o'clock. Is anyone else familiar with this? --Centauri 10:49, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Eurythmics
On what basis is the claim being made that Annie Lennox and Dave Stewart formed the Eurythmics in a Wagga Wagga toilet? Both musicians were already in another band called the Tourists when they decided to form a duo. I can't find anything on the web to substantiate that claim about the toilet meeting. Megan1967 07:17, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * I recall the story being in circulation in the music media in Australia in the mid 1980s, and heard it at that time from numerous sources, so I've always assumed it to be true.--Centauri 03:57, 28 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Turns out this was actually on the money! http://www.smh.com.au/news/entertainment/music/it-started-with-a-walkout-in-wagga/2009/03/06/1235842652080.html Zig c (talk) 09:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Redirection of this page
This page should not have been moved without consultation. We have established a naming convention for all Australian places by concensus discussion on the Australian Wkipeidan's Noticeboard. While there is only one Wagga Wagga, many Australian place names are not unique. For the sake of simplifying disambiguation, all Australian places, other than State capitals with unique place names (ie not including Perth), are automatically disambiguated, including Townsville. Please see the current discussion at WP:AWNB.--AYArktos 22:19, 16 August 2005 (UTC)

Five O'Clock Wave
I have reverted the following addition to the Geography section: "The river also supports a sandy 'beach' where people gather for picnics and barbeques in the summer months. The beach used to play host to the 'Gummi Float' where people were encouraged to make rafts from inner tubing and sabotage their competition by throwing rotten eggs and flour at them. Those still nostalgic for the event can take a float down the river from 'the Rocks' which are located some 600 metres upstream from the main beach area. Located on the river, the beach does not have ordinary waves, but at 5 o'clock every day, water laps towards the shore as flow relased from the Burrunjuck Dam upsteam washes through the area - this 'phenomenon' is known affectionately as the Five O'clock Wave." Before re-inserting please cite your sources. If it is a myth, please state clearly. This Lonely Planet reference implies the 5 Oclock wave is a piece of local folklore. Perhaps it could be included as folklore. The "Gummi Float" description also needs to be referenced.--A Y  Arktos 21:56, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

This is definately a local myth and is in no way true. It is all meant as a joke --Zig c 11:35, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I remember a local myth about commuters from Narrandera catching the 5 o'clock wave home every day. Both the 5 o'clock wave and the Gummi races are mentioned in Sherry Morris' Wagga Wagga, a history. I've reinserted references in the History and Tourist Attractions sections. Gimboid13 00:36, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I have removed any link between the five o'clock wave and the Wagga Effect. To my knowledge, the two have no relationship with one another. Please cite any sources here before trying to reimplement this link or it will be taken down again --Phraedus (talk) 10:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)


 * It's already sourced (Morris, S. (1999). Wagga Wagga, a history. Bobby Graham Publishers, p 261. ISBN 1-875247-12-2.) so I've readded it again. Bidgee (talk) 11:13, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Verifiability
Can we have some sources please? This needs to be verified. I note that someone has added a book source to the Wagga article. I will arrange in the next 7 days to read the book to affirm that it supports the assertions in the article which include reference to the 5 o'clock wave. My local contact had not heard of this piece of folklore and has been around the district long enough to come across it if it had existed.--A Y  Arktos 07:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I lived in Wagga for 3 years, and the tale was related to me within days of my arrival there from Sydney in February 1985 - and I heard it related to many others over the following years. I don't know who your local contact is, but they seem peculiarly uninformed. --Gene_poole 05:34, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

I went to Yanco Agricultural High School in the 1980's. This school is on the Murrubidgee River and we revelled in convincing boarders from the coast with stories about a daily wave that occurred every day whilst we were being served dinner, it was especially good because the river was off-limits regardless of the time of day. Garrie 00:46, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Merger of Wagga CBD Discussion
I think the article needs to be retained, but not as "Wagga Wagga CBD", instead it should be "Central Wagga" or "Central Wagga Wagga". Central Wagga is considered a distinct suburb by the Wagga Wagga City Council as much any of the other Wagga Wagga Suburbs articles on here. In fact it is one of the cities most highly populated suburbs. But the name is incorrect because there isn't an area of Wagga known as the CBD and the article needs to be re-written with the whole suburb as the focus.--Zig c 04:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It should be in the city article as it doesn't have a lot of content and would most likely have some duplication since the city article should discuss its CBD. Garglebutt / (talk) 23:52, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
 * As at March 2006 the article still hasn't identified separate content from the city article and specific to place- I plan to merge shortly.--A Y  Arktos 18:56, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
 * I've had a go. Most of it was already included in the main article but I've copied across the remainder. - Gimboid13 08:35, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of aboriginal words "wagga wagga"
Could somebody please cite a linguistic source for the meaning of "wagga wagga" in the dialect of the wiradjuri people? I know it is modern folklore that that is the meaning of the word. I know that is the understanding that lead to the place getting the name it now has. But was that understanding correct, or was it wrong? The same arguements are going on on the talk pages of several locations, and regardless of the way it is/was undertaken there was a similar arguement on the meaning of "murrumbidgee".

--Garrie 23:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * I think the Geographical Names board of NSW is reliable source wihtin the scope of Reliable sources booth for Wagga Wagga and Murrumbidgee. The GNB does in turn cite its sources.--A Y Arktos\talk 23:22, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
 * In this case I think they cite the city of wagga city council. Surely someone involved in the Wagga articles has some connection with the aboriginal land council, or is involved in studying the wiradjuri culture? GNB names have been shown to be factually wrong before, but once the name is an accepted place name then that is all the GNB care about (they are only a geographic names board after all).--Garrie 23:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Answered on user's talk page. GNB does not cite Wagga council but appears to have cited anthropologists.--A Y Arktos\talk 02:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

infobox obscelescence
I've converted the infobox to the new version, however there was some information left over that isn't in the main body:


 * pophistoric= 627 (1861), 6,419 (1911), 19,235 (1954), 39,461 (1981)
 * pop2001=56,722
 * railway=1879 from Sydney

Harryboyles 15:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Wagga vs Wagga Wagga
Locals never call the place by its full name... but this isn't explained, the article just starts using Wagga as the single word.

Is it worth mentioning the song, Don't call Wagga Wagga, Wagga??? Garrie 10:16, 1 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I've put in the lead sentence that it is informlly referred to as Wagga. As to the song, I'd probably make a section about unique Wagga customs, like the 5 o'clock wave. Harryboyles 10:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Merging Sturt Mall
Yes please - if this article should be kept at all it should definitely be merged into Wagga Wagga! V i  r  tual  Steve  07:45, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Keep Seperate: Sturt Mall should not be merged with Wagga Wagga. If Wagga Wagga Marketplace gets its own article, Sturt Mall should as well. I think some more information could be added to the article, but it has a good opening paragraph and a photo. --Whats new? 00:37, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

As detailed above I withdraw my opinion that this article should be merged. User Whats new? makes a good point in relation to  one in all in  - and I whilst I have my own opinion as to whether that is a good reason for anything to be in Wikipedia - and as to whether a small country shopping mall is encyclopedic (I see 10's of 1,000's more separate articles for every shopping mall in Australia - not to mention the world) it seems it is important to others - see List of shopping centres in Australia. So I agree it should be kept separate and cleaned up (or perhaps deleted if it is not). V i  r  tual  Steve  01:52, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Additonal external link
I think Wagga Guide at www.waggaguide.com.au should be considered for the external link section as it is an excellent resource on all aspects of Wagga. The site includes information useful to new residents like when to put your bins out or where to get new ones, location of hospitals, the local schools of all levels in the area, what shops are located where, and the city counsillors with their contact information for all levels of governement. There is information for visitors and what to do while in Wagga including upcoming events all the major pubs, restaurants and cafes. There are featured community based news stories about interesting local happenings. The website is updated regularly and is in the process of adding a lot of new content. what do you think? (Catrionakerr 03:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC))
 * Now added. V  i  r  tual  Steve  04:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Article cleanup
There appears to be a plethora of unencyclopaedic material in the article. I would like to suggest a plan of attack to tidy it up prior to expansion.


 * 1) Remove the Future Developments section. This in encyclopaedic and is possibly a breach of WP:CRYSTAL especially as these projects seem to be in the "planning stage".
 * 2) Move the list of notable people to a separate article List of notable people from Wagga Wagga, New South Wales. A trimmed down prose section may be useful as a replacement.
 * 3) Write up as prose some of the more interesting trivia items as a section called perhaps "Wagga Wagga in popular culture" and delete the rest as unencyclopaedic. This should probably include a cut down version of the 5 O'Clock wave, the balance can be moved the dedicated article.
 * 4) Write the sport section as prose, including the Wagga Effect.
 * 5) Consolidate the TV, Radio and Newspaper sections into a prose section "Media"
 * 6) Remove the less notable events and include the rest as prose in the Recreation and Culture section.
 * 7) Trim some of the external links and bring them down to a reasonable size.

Others thoughts would be appreciated.--Mattinbgn/talk 11:53, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed Matt - Regarding prose I will focus on the Media section first off, then move on to Recreation and Culture.-- VS talk 19:34, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree with most of the above but I don't think the 5 o'clock wave section shortened by much. It was originally an article in its own right and was merged with this article following a deletion nomination. It's an interesting piece of local folklore. Gimboid13 22:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Gimboid - I'm a bit fascinated by the absolute validity of the 5 o'clock reference (partly because I am a WW lad and I have never heard it refer to) but mainly because I note that it is referred to as the 4 o'clock wave elsewhere (and that article redirects to Wagga Wagga) but in any event your comments are thoughtful and noted.-- VS talk 23:42, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Wagga is my home town too. I heard it mentioned occasionally when I was growing up, but that's a while ago now. I read somewhere there was once a surf shop in the main street called The 5 O'Clock Wave. I agree the timing of the wave is a bit vague. The article I mentioned above was originally called the 6 o'clock wave. Might be something to do with daylight saving. :) Gimboid13 10:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Daylight saving - that's pretty funny.-- VS talk

With the events, I am tempted to be bold and delete the vast majority but it may be worth deferring to opinion here. Please let me know if there are there any in particular that should be kept. -- Mattinbgn/talk 09:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Matt, I agree with your intention here - we are writing a GA which means moving away from this travel brochure content I would say. Towards that end I'd be looking for sort of strong WP:NN link within the article also.  So I would suggest keep the Wagga Gold Cup(Australia's second oldest horse race), the Wagga Wagga Jazz Festival (which is seriously big deal) and perhaps the Group ( final.  On the others as much as it will pain some WW people the Railway is not an event, and the rest do not (as far as I can tell) have their own level of serious notability.  Anyway the're my thoughts for now.-- VS  talk 10:37, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Have relocated the Gold Cup to sport and will do the the same with the Group 9 Rugby league final. The jazz festival will sit nicely in recreation and culture. Thanks for the advice. -- Mattinbgn/talk 10:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * You beat me to it - as per on your talk page. Regarding my comments on events - I like the way that you are incorporating it within the body itself which probably means the list section can disappear in full now or soon.-- VS  talk 10:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Wagga Wagga versus Wagga
Just as a reference note - I am using Wagga Wagga for any formal reference, title etc and Wagga only in the informal areas.-- VS talk 23:44, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Trivia
Moving this article towards GA has meant removal of a couple of pure trivia items - about Pound Puppies, Harry Potter etc from the trivia section. I have also removed the following item for now and can not at this stage see why it should be included: *The Robert G. Barrett novel, "Mud Crab Boogie" is partially set in Wagga Wagga but if there are any other thoughts please let us know?-- VS  talk 11:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Barrett novels are popular but with all respect to his fans not exactly classics of Australian literature. The book is notable enough but probably not enough for including in the Wagga article. -- Mattinbgn/talk 22:18, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Hmmm - not guilty of including the Harry Potter trivia but I think it should stay. Think of the readership (as opposed to those who contribute) - ie the reader demographic is most likely to have also read Harry Potter and it might intreague them to find this factoid there.  I know nothing of Pound Puppies though.--Golden Wattle  talk 04:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the footnotes for the Wagga Wagga effect are overdone. Each of the articles for the sporting heroes shoud have a reference supporting them being from Wagga.  If necessary, perhaps the one presently in this article if it isn't there already.  This would get rid of footnotes 22 through to 31 and make both the section and the footnotes more readable.--Golden Wattle  talk 04:34, 30 April 2007 (UTC)✅

Climate
Wagga Wagga's location on the inland side of the Great Dividing Range and elevation of 147 metres causes the city to have four distinct seasons. It doesn't cause the city to have four seasons. Being 147m ASL does have a part to play but so does location (much of Wagga Wagga is in a valley also) but the main part is the sun's location. As the sun moves north the high pressure systems also move north to give northern Australia the dry season but this allows lows and cold fronts from the deep south to move north over southern Australia being with them very cold. Once the sun moves south so do the high pressure systems which in the Summer (sometime Spring if it has been very dry and sunny) drags down hot dry air from the heart of Australia but sometimes drags down hot moist air from the Tropics. I've tried to not go to technical but I hope it helps. -- Bidgee 01:06, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
 * I guess I haven't worded what I wanted to say correctly. I was trying to explain that it has an inland climate with larger extremes of temperature than the coast.  I dont know what causes that either but it seems to be the case. Is this actually the case and if so any ideas on wording-- Mattinbgn/talk 01:27, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Population
I have changed the population figure and reference from the City of Wagga Wagga LGA to the Wagga Wagga statistical district. The LGA figure includes areas such as Tarcutta that are outside the Wagga Wagga urban area. This is consistent with the treatment at List of cities in Australia by population. -- Mattinbgn/talk 01:36, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Moving forward
While the article is reasonably tidy now and much improved from its previous state, there is still plenty to do to get it to a state worth submitting as a Good article candidate.


 * The geography section could probably be moved above the history section.✅
 * The section on geography could include a section on the geology of Wagga Wagga. Sourcing this may be a problem.
 * The section on suburbs could be expanded and improved. Local knowledge may be useful here.  Not sure how to source this either.  Point to a UBD?
 * The history section needs expanding to include 20th century events.
 * The section on the Wagga bridges could probably be trimmed to remove details about the lease arrangements . It reads like a previous merge from a stand alone article.
 * Note I have removed the following at thist time ... however there was not to be a toll for the Governor, government employees, clergymen, mailmen or any private citizens travelling to and from church on a Sunday. The penalty for evading the toll was not to exceed £5 and the bridge would be a public bridge after 99 years and 21 years when the government could purchase the bridge. The Act also allowed the Company to charge a trespass penalty that was not to exceed £10 if anyone established a ferry for hire or profit with in 2 miles. It granted the Company capital of £4,000 but also allowed for the creation of more shares to £6,000.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by VirtualSteve (talk • contribs) 23:17, 4 May 2007 (UTC).
 * The list of notable people could be removed as I haven't been able to incorporate smoothly into the text. If other wish to try I am willing to hold off.
 * The education section needs sourcing. Are there any notable boarding schools in Wagga?  Does Wagga act as a regional centre of high school education?  The TAFE section could be expanded.  Again sourcing may be an issue.
 * Defence is good, but some details on numbers employed and effect on the economy would be great.

Others thoughts? -- Mattinbgn/talk 22:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Please note GW's thoughts (5 cents worth - rounded up :-) ) above at trivia.-- VS  talk 04:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Just before I disappear again, some time ago I did some work on the Albury article comparing it with those articles which had gained featured article status. The results can be seen at Talk:Albury, New South Wales.  Probably worth looking at some recently promoted featured articles to update the contents.
 * There should be a cite for the Navy presence in Wagga too - I know it exists and the present assertions are not disputed! :p --Golden Wattle talk 05:04, 30 April 2007 (UTC)✅ (difficult but linked to HMAS Albatross)-- VS  talk 07:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks, GW. Good to see you back, if only for a while.  The table is a great idea.  I had been informally comparing it to other articles, the systematic comparison makes it easy to see ehat could be usefully added. -- Mattinbgn/talk 21:53, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
 * Might make more sense when you look at Talk:Canberra where I first did the exercise (Canberra was promoted :-) ).--Golden Wattle talk 01:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Unless others have objections I am going to move the geography and climate sections above the history section as discussed above. -- Mattinbgn/talk 21:11, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * No objection - although perhaps some of Geography content belongs in the Commercial area - or even in a separate sub-heading within Geography called Suburbs?-- VS talk 22:17, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I have added a subsection called City and suburbs that needs expanding. It is not the most elegant name and so if anyone can think of a better please change it. -- Mattinbgn/talk 01:28, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Population again

 * On population, I think a useful reference is . We used it to settle the Gundagai pop and it has been used elsewhere.  It is the ABS's urban centre figure and I think this article is about the urban centre.  For Wagga, the figure is 44,451 in 2001 and was 44,770 in 1996 (see page 34) Regards --Golden Wattle  talk 01:39, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't like the figure in the article or the ABS ref as opposed to the one I have given immediately above. As per List of cities in Australia by population this pop figure and associated ref refers to statistical districts and I don't think stat district when I think of Wagga Wagga, I think urban centre, or the contiguous built-up areas of the city - ie the second of the lists in the List of Cities by pop.  In the second list Wagga Wagga is number 29 28 (in this list) and has a pop of 44,272 the ref being ABS: > - very closely aligned to the two most recent census figures.--Golden Wattle  talk 11:37, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Happy for the population figure to change so long as it ties back to the List of cities in Australia by population, which it does. Of course it is now five years old but it probably as good as we are likely to get until the release of the new census figures.-- Mattinbgn/talk 11:43, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * The 44,272 seems to be a current estimate - the last ten years seems to be pretty constant!--Golden Wattle talk 11:50, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I concur with both trains of thought - that is I see the direct link of 28th in both stats and I agree with the article changing to refer to an urban pop'n of 44,272 using reference cited by GW.-- VS talk 12:46, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Have bitten the bullet and adjusted pop'n to above thoughts (correctly I think?)-- VS talk 22:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC) ✅
 * I've always wondered what Wagga's true Pop was not just the other towns added in. Great work guys(and girls). Pity I'm living in Darwin and working 12 hour shifts. -- Bidgee 17:15, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Literary refs
Literary refs plus other info for example on bushrangers from http://www.smh.com.au/news/new-south-wales/wagga-wagga/2005/02/17/1108500200023.html includes Wagga "been home to a number of Australian writers, such as poets Mary Gilmore (who grew up and taught here), Barcroft Boake, and Frank Moorhouse (who worked as a journalist on the Daily Advertiser)." I can't find anything notable where Wagga has been the subject of a fictional work.--Golden Wattle talk 01:05, 2 May 2007 (UTC)✅ Started both sections (Law and order/Literary links - more content in literary definitely needed)-- VS  talk 00:08, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * So are we suggesting a sub-heading under Culture titled City in Literature or other?-- VS talk 04:57, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I think so, but with just the "Wagga Wagga werewolf" ref from Harry Potter it is a little thin at present but as a sub heading it would not matter so much. It would also give us something to work at filling.  I suggested "Wagga Wagga in popular culture" as a heading for this sort of thing but I am not sure that is the best name for what we are looking for. -- Mattinbgn/talk 05:14, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Could also include the Bee Gees "Morning of my life" reference as well, provided we find a reference. -- Mattinbgn/talk 05:44, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Not sure if I like that suggested title - probably because I'd like to steer away from the obvious Wagga Wagga in part - would rather something like Literary Links (although that is probably a bit kitsch)? PS we also have Bryce Courtney's reference and the Pound Puppies one to add in...-- VS  talk 08:10, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed about the "Wagga Wagga in..." bit. 'Literary links" isn't too bad. -- Mattinbgn/talk 08:20, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also Greg Champion's song Dont call Wagga Wagga Wagga should be included. -- Mattinbgn/talk 01:55, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Comparison of topics and size with other international city Featured Articles
*Table incorporated courtesy of an idea from (the somewhat retired :-> ) Golden Wattle* I suggest we use the notations NA; Nil; Partial; Almost; & Completed (with adjustments to be made as editors come to varying conclusions).-- VS talk 07:48, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I probably should have added that even if we only continue for GA (or A status) this table as a comparison tool sets nice high standards...-- VS talk 22:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Would others mind if we move the table to Talk:Wagga Wagga, New South Wales/Comparison table so we could keep this page for discussion? -- Mattinbgn/talk 21:07, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Fine - with a link at the top of this page perhaps so that we can get to and fro it easily?-- VS talk 04:49, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Now done - link coming up (will put in to do box).-- VS talk 04:51, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:Wagga Wagga, New South Wales/Comparison table for comparison table-- VS talk 04:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Comparison table on the sub page is great, much easier to find. Thanks. -- Mattinbgn/talk 05:15, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Panoramic Image
I have moved the panoramic image from the gallery to the geography section. I love the picture and I think if fits well with the topic but I am conscious that it may look overwhelming in the article. If other editors wish to move it back to the gallery I would not be too concerned. -- Mattinbgn/talk 06:31, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually I thought that it looked quite good in the larger size (doesn't work very well as an image in a smaller size is what I am trying to say).-- VS talk 08:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Getting closer!
We may be getting to the stage where a sub article - History of Wagga Wagga is needed if we both keep adding content this quickly :-). I still have some info on the wars, depression and the New State Movement in the 1930s I would like to add and then a little on post war history such as establishment of Kapooka, Forest Hill and Wagga Airport, the Base Hospital and the Council amalgamation.

Good idea delinking Fearnes, the article was deleted a while ago now and notability is unlikely to be established. I will also add some stuff on literary links, such the Greg Champion song, even the Barrett book could go back perhaps. -- Mattinbgn/talk`


 * Agree totally with sub article - At this stage I am trying to limit material because of size of the main article which is at 54kbs (already larger than the largest on our list of FA's). If you want to move across I will support and update the sub.✅
 * Sub article created - now we need to summarise the history section of the article. -- Mattinbgn/talk 00:01, 9 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Also agree with Champion song and Barrett book - will leave those to you if you like. I will return Potter and Pound Puppies ref's (briefly) - sound okay?
 * I am going to try to de redlink some of the left-over articles over the next few days - like I did with Daily Advertiser.-- VS talk 00:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Mary Gilmore
We have included her twice, once under culture and again under literary links. Where do you think is best? -- Mattinbgn/talk 00:32, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry missed that one - I think Gilmore should remain in Culture given her importance and have adjusted.-- VS talk 00:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)✅
 * Sorry - I re-added her under literary links. I think that section probably needs more work given I can't think it really has captured anybody's imagination much since nobody has written about it in a prominent way that we remember.  Wagga Wagga obviously lacks the ring of Gundagai!--Golden Wattle  talk 03:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Third party overview
I think we are very close to a GA article and probably ready for a review. In my mind considering how close we all are to the article I propose to put it under the scrutiny of another editor for their comments. My suggestion is Nehrams2020 who provided great assistance in the case of Riverina - and from there (if necessary) we can tackle the last couple of things. Can you let me know your thoughts please Matt and GW?-- VS talk 07:19, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Go for it--Golden Wattle talk 07:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe go direct to Good_article_candidates but I think asking for a view from an editor who has looked at the Riverina article might be a good start.--Golden Wattle talk 07:27, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Definitely needs another set of eyes. I read it a couple of times today but I am too close to it at this stage to read it properly. If Nehrams2020 is willing, he would be a good choice.-- Mattinbgn/talk 07:35, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay well thanks folks. I will go to Nehrams first and see if he can - if not then it's off to nomination I go.-- VS  talk 07:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Request has been placed-- VS talk 07:48, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

GA comments
Thanks for considering me before nominating, I just finished a final, so thought I could help with the review of this one before going off to study for another final. This may look like a lot, but it's about average compared to what I comment on for other articles of this length. Most of the things found below are really easy to fix, or may not even apply as some are just suggestions or my American English grammar compared to Australian English. Here are a few suggestions:
 * 1) For the lead, I'd recommend that some of the single sentences that stand alone be incorporated into the other paragraphs or expanded upon. For the intro sentence, just add the second paragraph to it. The lead is for summarizing the majority of the topics of the article, so consider rewording or adding some information. Make sure not to add too much, or you'll defeat the purpose of the intro. If you want more info, look at WP:LEAD.✅
 * 2) There are a lot of images on the page licensed under the Creative Commons. If they're your guys' pictures, maybe consider getting an account at Wikimedia Commons and uploading them there in case any other Wikis would like to use the images. Comment - I have written to Bidgee on this issue a couple of times in the past - I think most are his images but to date he hasn't responded on an interest to move them to Wiki Commons.
 * 3) I may be mistaken, and Australian English may differ, but I think that south west and south east should be one word. If I'm wrong, ignore this.✅but not for South West Slopes - which is so named
 * 4) Although List of Wagga Wagga suburbs and localities is not part of the article, I'd recommend expanding it some if you ever want to take this article to FA. Right now it looks a little bare.
 * 5) "By 1849 the town was marked out by surveyor Thomas Townshend and formally gazetted as a village ." Remove spacing between village and the period.✅
 * 6) The years are all wikilinked in the first part of the history section, except starting at 1868 not many single years are wikilinked. They should either all be or not be wikilinked so it is uniform.✅ Also add wikilinks for banks, solicitors, doctors and dentists.✅
 * 7) "The Wagga Wagga Advertiser still published today as the The Daily Advertiser commenced in 1868" Rewrite to "The Wagga Wagga Advertiser is still published today as The Daily Advertiser commenced in 1868", and also italicize The Daily Advertiser.✅
 * 8) I'd recommend directing the link for Mayor to Mayor#Australia, ex: Mayor . Also do the same for in the Government section.✅ Add wikilink for library.✅
 * 9) "In 1895 Hampden Bridge, a truss bridge was built across the Murrumbidgee River at Wagga." Rewrite as "In 1895 a truss bridge, Hampden Bridge, was built across the Murrumbidgee River at Wagga."✅
 * 10) "With increasing prosperity and population Wagga and surrounding district became a place of interest to several infamous bushrangers." Reword to either "With its increasing prosperity..." or "...and population Wagga and its surrounding district became..."✅
 * 11) "Notoriously the Wagga police magistrate Henry Baylis was bailed up by Mad Dog Morgan in 1863." This sentence should also be reworded, doesn't read well with the sentence starting with "Norotriously". Also fix the link for Mad Dog Morgan, currently goes to a sports player.✅
 * 12) "Captain Moonlite and his band arrived in the district on November 15, 1879 and held up all 39 people at Wantabadgery Station." Remove all.✅
 * 13) "From 1898, a group of residents..." Reword to "In 1898".✅
 * 14) "After a series of major floods in the early 1950s, the City Council protected the city area on the south flood plain through construction of a levee, completed in 1962, and provided protection from 1 in 100 year floods." For the last part of the sentence, was it protected one flood in a hundred years, or one in the possible hundred floods? If so, reword the sentence a little better, it's somewhat confusing. Also, in the same paragraph you use amalgamated/ion twice, remove one for some more variety.✅
 * 15) "The main sources of employment in Wagga Wagga include Education, Retailing, Health and Defence." The words at the end don't need to be capitalized.✅
 * 16) "As well as Wagga Wagga itself the City Council area includes the outlying towns of Tarcutta, Ladysmith, Mangoplah, Collingullie and Uranquinty covering an area of 4,824km2.[44]." Remove the period after the inline citation.✅
 * 17) "Wagga Wagga Railway Station is located on the Sydney-Melbourne railway line. with twice daily XPT fast rail services provided by CountryLink, the state owned passenger rail service." This needs to be reworded, it looks like something got chopped off or there is just an extra period in there.✅
 * 18) In the Recreation and culture section, there is a single sentence standing alone as an intro to the section. I'd recommend removing it ✅ and incorporating it into another section if desired since the section before it (Industry) doesn't have an intro. If you want to keep the sentence, then develop it into a few more sentences and do the same for the Industry section. This also occurs in the media section.✅
 * 19) "The Murrumbidgee River at Wagga Wagga supports a sandy beach, a popular location for picnics and barbeques in the summer months." Reword to "The Murrumbidgee River at Wagga Wagga supports a sandy beach, and it is a popular location for picnics and barbeques in the summer months." or something like that.✅
 * 20) "Those still nostalgic for the event can take a float down the river from "The Rocks" which are located some 600 metres upstream from the main beach area." This sounds a little like something out of a travel guide, could probably be reworded a bit to be more encyclopedic.✅
 * 21) "Prior to and after opening the theatre was was the subject of severe criticism as critics lamented the destruction of rose gardens removed to allow construction, the size of the orchestra pit and the seating (497 seats) as well as the design of the feature mural." The first part of this sentence needs to be reworded.✅
 * 22) Consider moving the 5 'o Clock Wave subheading section to the Sporting section, but it's not necessary.✅
 * 23) Move the image gallery up above the references, some readers may miss it.✅
 * 24) In edit mode, some of the citation templates take up a lot of space in the article. If you can, condense them, it's better to have the items right after each other rather than taking up so much space. It will make it easier for other people to edit the article.✅

Again, most of these should be easy to fix. The article looks very good, and I'm impressed by the number of inline citations. If you want further clarification for any of these, please let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. Good luck with the nomination, it'll probably be a long while before anybody reviews it due to the backlog. If you help review the articles that are before yours, or in other sections, it would possibly speed up the review time of your article. Thanks for the break from studying and I hope it passes. --Nehrams2020 23:37, 10 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Thanks Nehrams2020 - my wagga wagga wiki colleagues and I will get to these final list of suggestions and then submit. Having assisted in reviewing a couple of GA and GA potential articles recently I also appreciate the prompt to actually add my name to WikiProject Good articles and will join up immediately after posting this message.-- VS talk 23:53, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

GA nomination
For the information of those editors assisting in getting this article to what is hopefully a GA level (and other editors coming to this page in the next little while) - This article is now nominated here as number 15 in the current locations list of today's date-- VS talk 07:29, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for putting the nomination box on this page Nehrams2020-- VS talk 07:55, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

GA pass
The article is comprehensive, but you seem to have done a good job of forking information out and keeping everything in context. I only have a few suggestions-that a few paragraphs without citations, like "City and suburbs" and "Geography" get them. "City and suburbs" also reads a bit like a brochure-I would suggest that you fix that. Overall, however, this article deserves GA! ErleGrey 19:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Wonderful news - thank you for the time to review this long article. Best wishes.-- VS  talk 22:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Congratulations--Golden Wattle talk 01:22, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * My thanks also to the reviewer, and well done to WikiProject Riverina, another GA! -- Mattinbgn/talk 06:36, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

2006 Census
The results of the 2006 census have been released. The population Wagga Wagga LGA is 57,015. There is no urban/locality data for Wagga Wagga and looks like the suburbs are counted individually. The Wagga Wagga (Statistical District) which includes Forest Hill, Kapooka, Estella and Lloyd are included within this census data. The Wagga Wagga (Statistical District) has a population figure of 52,489. The census data is avaiable from here |2006 Census data Wagga Wagga Brt8 00:56, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Lead section
Even given the length of this article, I think the lead is a bit long. Also, it repeats the "true lead" in the first paragraph with expanded infomration: millitary importance is introduced in para 1, then repeated in para 4 and expaned even more in para 5 (yes, we're still in the lead section!) At 58 kb, WP:LEAD recommends "three or four paragraphs". At the current length, even as an interested reader I'm bored before I get a chance to scroll down to the table of contents. Personally, para 5 is "just bragging" and adds nothing to what is already mentioned. There's no need to go into statistics "22 primary schools, 8 secondary schools and a regional institute of TAFE with 18 campuses..." So having said all that - should para 5 just dissapear or does somebody want to do something a bit more subtle? ps, are all those 18 campuses in Wagga Wagga? NO they are not. Garrie 05:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree with removing para 5. I would suggest being bold and making any changes to the lead that you see fit.  I must admit the lead isn't the most elegant piece of prose I have written and a good rewrite would make a big difference. -- Mattinbgn/talk 13:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

History section
This should summarise History of Wagga Wagga. Currently - it needs someone to merge this section with that article. There is information here, which doesn't seem to exist there. Which is a problem: I was about to drop a summary of History of Wagga Wagga over the top of this history section, which is too long and has no subheadings.

I will work on it over the next week, merging this section with the dedicated history article, then moving a summary back here. SO when it shrinks, you'll know why.Garrie 05:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I see that's what Mattinbgn had in mind... it's a shame this history section continued to grow and the dedicated article seems not to have really grown much (just images added).Garrie 05:56, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Steve and I had a shot at summarising the History article. Of course, when you write most of the original is it hard to be ruthless when editing as you get attached to some of the minutiae and some padding will sneak through. Another pass through the two articles to ensure consistency and to tighten up the content would be useful. -- Mattinbgn/talk 13:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


 * My question though - is History of Wagga Wagga "complete", incorporating everything that's in the "History" section here? So if I (and I had nothing to do with History of Wagga Wagga) summarise that article and replace this "History" section, will anything be left out? I'm a local, but I can be ruthless with this fairly easily.Garrie 22:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The first edit in History of Wagga Wagga was a dump of the entire content of the history section of the main Wagga article. New content was then added to the History of Wagga Wagga article.  Once this was complete, a summary of the history article was created in the history section of the main article.  This was done with an attempt to preserve existing content where appropriate.  In the meantime it is possible that some additional content was added to the history section of the main article and not the history article, although I do not recall doing so myself.  I think the the history article is complete but if you can see content in the main article that is not reflected in the history article then it is probably wise to move that over. Cheers, Mattinbgn/talk 22:22, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I'll have a careful look before I can it replace it with a more rutheless summary.Garrie 22:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

History section still looks long to me especially since it has its own article. Michellecrisp 01:48, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that Garrie has not done his more ruthless summary yet. I think we all agree it is a little too long.  Please feel free to be bold and remove anything you think needs removing. -- Mattinbgn/talk 03:50, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry, real life / school holidays. Go ahead and be more than bold, be ruthless...Garrie 04:08, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Agree on the ruthlessness. While I don't think the section is "woefull" (but I am of course biased :-)) it certainly needs a severe trim and a tightening of the prose. -- Mattinbgn/talk 10:06, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Sorry that is harsh wording - the sections are woeful in the context of applying summary style rather than simply "woeful" in isolation.Garrie 03:31, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Still needs reducing!! Michellecrisp (talk) 01:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Can one of the people who continually comment on the size of the history section please let me know how small they want the section to be. It is already substanially smaller than the split article (2,500 words --> 1,500 words). How big do you want, 1000 words, 500 words? Advice would be gratefully accepted. -- Mattinbgn\talk 02:33, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

GA on hold
This article has been reviewed as part of WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found it to be under-referenced. These statements require inline citations:
 * "This has been recognised in the foundation stone of St Michael's Roman Catholic Cathedral, which is written in Latin and translates the city's name as Corvopolitanus ("corvus" being the Latin word for crow)." reworded but ✅
 * "Jeremiah Finn built the Golden Age Hotel in Fitzmaurice Street, the first hotel to be built in South Wagga Wagga, in 1873. He held the licence of this hotel until 26 June 1886, when the licence was transferred to George Wood.The Golden Age, was then renamed the Southern Cross and later the Duke of Kent." ✅ removed in its entirety, if it belongs anywhere it is the main article History of Wagga Wagga not in the summary style section.
 * "In addition Wagga Wagga is home to eight secondary schools and 22 primary schools."
 * "It is speculated that the phenomenon may arise in rural areas where the population is large enough to sustain the presence of a large number of sporting codes, but small enough to ensure that talented individuals are exposed to adult-level competition at an earlier age."✅
 * "the Victory Memorial Gardens were established in 1925" ✅, with a slight reword
 * "the Riverina Theatre Company is Australia's longest running regional theatre company" ✅, with slight reword
 * Each famous sportsperson from Wagga Wagga needs a cite. ✅, see below

Also, years on their own should not be linked. ✅ - agreed, not sure how slipped in. I will check back in no less than seven days. If progress is being made and issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GA/R). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAC. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions. Regards, Epbr123 19:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I disagree with the assertion that Each famous sportsperson from Wagga Wagga needs a cite - the references would be too crowded.  Cites belong in their own articles which of course are wikilinked.  I have added the link tot he ref at the end of the paragraph to the list of the inductees of the Hall of Fame which include everyone in the section except Peter Mortimer, Nathan Sharpe, Sally Shiphard.  Sharpe's article contains external links which reference the content but not the Wagga connection as does Sally Shiphard's article (though note born in Tumut and there is no ref to her growing up in Wagga).  I conclude therefore that both Sharpe's and Shipard's articles needs a ref to Wagga and Mortimer's article needs references.  All other references are supported by being inductees of the Wagga sporting hall of fame.--Golden Wattle  talk 21:45, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, Peter Mortimer✅, Nathan Sharpe✅ and Sally Shipard✅ will need citations in their articles. Epbr123 21:57, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

GA Pass
This article has been reviewed as part of WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. The article history has been updated to reflect this review. Regards, Epbr123 14:57, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

School links
For future use...
 * Primary schools
 * High Schools -- Mattinbgn\talk 23:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Photos
I'm in Wagga for the next few days so while I'm here is there any photos needed for any Wagga articles? -- Bidgee 12:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

People from Wagga Wagga?
What are people from Wagga Wagga called? Wagganites?? Waggaish?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeadlyAssassin (talk • contribs) 03:26, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Wagga-ite singular, Wagga-ites group, & Sir if you are alone and the one you meet is bigger than you (which is almost always the case because of the nutrients in the water).-- VS talk 04:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Information and history
I've been trying to get in contact with the Wagga Wagga City Council but as of yet no reply (Rather unhelpful). Next thing I'll try is the CSU Riverina Archives but I'll think you have to pay a fair bit of money to access them. Bidgee (talk) 05:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * What in particular are you looking for? The Riverina Regional Library may be able to help. -- Mattinbgn\talk 05:41, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Still some information missing such as the Federal Brewery (Building still stands but now houses businesses), Power station (Copland Street I think it was located but the building is no longer), former Gold mine (dating back to the 1880s if I can recall) located on one of the Hill's, When was the Comms towers and main HV power (HV towers) on Willans Hill installed. Just to name a few! I've been to the Riverina Regional Library but they will not give me access to the Local Studies (Where most of the info is stored). Bidgee (talk) 05:52, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The brewery and power station are mentioned in Morris, S. Wagga Wagga: a history. Gimboid13 (talk) 06:45, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Yep but it doesn't go into much detail. Wollundry Lagoon is something I'm also finding hard to source. Bidgee (talk) 06:48, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Something about Willans Hill would be interesting too. Morris mentions briefly a couple of Willans but not in connection with the hill. Gimboid13 (talk) 06:57, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I did find a source which went into more detail (Reliability could be questionable) but I can find it again . It was only little detail on why it was named Willans Hill and why it became an reserve. Bidgee (talk) 07:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Found it. LORD OF THE WEEDS. I don't think it could be classed as reliable though. Bidgee (talk) 07:14, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That's interesting. It might be worth checking the references for a source. Gimboid13 (talk) 11:19, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Wagga Wagga and Hartlepool (Teeside, UK)
There ia a link with Wagga Wagga and the town of Hartlepool in the North East of England. There is an area of the town referred to as "Wagga" because it is so remote, just like the outback. The social club (now gone) was always known as the Wagga club but was really the Longhill Quoits club. This area is next to where the steel works was (also long gone, pulled down in 1979) and when the steel was poured from the blast furnaces the light would reflect off low cloud and was referred to as "the Wagga Moon". All that remains of the area is the Longhill industrial estate which now has little industry! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monkeyhanger100 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Small matter on "Notes" style abt to turn into another Wiki drama
The Notes section of the article needs a small clean-up. Until that time, I'm tagging it accordingly. The small clean-up concerns the integration of sources cited, per WP:REF rules. Currently, the same source is cited in a diferent footnote some twenty times! The cleaned-up version would have that particular source cited only once. Some contributors, who have not understood what I'm referring to, are abt to start an editing fracas. Fellows, calm down. I suggest you check out  the appropriate section of WP:REF, i.e. "...the same footnote may be used multiple times", and clean up the section. It's preferable that you do it so that this small (yet important for article clarity) matter of style is understood. -The Gnome (talk) 08:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Again those cite pages with in a book which is some 200+ pages! Whats the point in sourcing just the book (As in one source) when people will then challenge them, Infact it was better on how it was. Bidgee (talk) 08:46, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also readding the tag with the threat "If you remove the clean-up tag placed under WP:REF rules, you will be called on the 3RR" when this issue is being discussed here on the talk page is rather unhelpful and bullying. Also WP:REF is not a rule but a guideline. A rule is a policy which has to be followed were as a guideline should be followed but can be broken. Bidgee (talk) 09:08, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It has been "cleaned up". Again, there is no requirement to use any one system of referencing and the bullying approach of slapping tags about is very counter-productive. The method used in this article has been used in Featured Articles I have written including Clem Hill, Harry Trott and Hugh Trumble without challenge before. I suggest you go back and read WP:CITE especially the section on Including Page Numbers, "If you are quoting from, paraphrasing, or referring to a specific passage of a book or article, you should if possible also cite the page number(s) of that passage." Again, I am removing the tag. Please cease from re-adding it until you actually understand how sources should be cited. -- Mattinbgn\talk 08:57, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems useless and rather time-wasting to argue with you or User:Bingee. To recap, hopefully for the last time: This is NOT about "citing pages" from the Morris book. What is currently up is the same book description repeated some twenty times. I agree that WP:REF contains not rules  but guidelines. However, these are there for a reason! And they are used to both tag articles which seem to be violating them and improve those articles. And how is placing a  tag "counter-productive" or "bullying"?? The idea of a tag is to alert contributors to the need for a specific improvement. Nothing wrong with it, per se, as you're implying. To better understand the idea (and I can't believe I'm elaborating on this elementary matter but that's Wikiperida for ya) : If you were citing specific pages, then the current style would be alright, i.e. the Morris book cited with the respective page number each time. But simply repeating the same book description over and over and over again is NOT how to  cite sources in a Wiki "Notes" section. That's what the guidelines are telling us, sir. It's both a bad style of citing and a waste of bandwidth. Alright?  May the good sun of Australia shine on you (both) and have you understand what the hell I'm talking about. Happy trails. -The Gnome (talk) 09:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think you should take a look at WP:REF, as Matt already has followed what's stated! Its seems to me you have a misunderstanding of WP:REF. Bidgee (talk) 09:37, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that since the notes are referencing a different page number each time, the current version is perfectly alright. As to who understands or doesn't the WP:REF guidelines here, let's just say that the discussion above demonstrates this quite clearly. Well, this has been enough aggravation for such an "issue". Take care --the both of you. -The Gnome (talk) 09:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Using just one book cite without pages would not be in the best interest of the article and WP:REF does not state that page numbers shouldn't be used (Infact it should be cited as if someone questioning the source can read the book and find the page in the book via the page number cited on the article's page). Bidgee (talk) 09:46, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Your condescending and quite frankly rude and bullying manner in this discussion is what is counter productive. Slapping tags on articles when there is disagreement on a style matter until you get your way is bullying. Threatening 3RR when you don't get your way is bullying. The last two (count 'em, two) times you placed the clean up tag on this article, the "same book description" was not on the article. That didn't stop you slapping the tags back on anyway despite you now saying "I agree that since the notes are referencing a different page number each time, the current version is perfectly alright." Of course, the pages were referenced (albeit with the book description) in the version you first tagged, but perhaps you missed that in your enthusiasm. Funnily enough, I have written half a dozen or so FAs so perhaps I may know something about referencing style here on Wiki, despite your need to "elaborat[e]on this elementary matter" (condescending, much?). Perhaps a less arrogant and dogmatic and more co-operative approach will serve you better next time. Best wishes. -- Mattinbgn\talk 12:01, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Fifth largest inland city?
The country's fifth largest inland city?

1. Canberra

2. Toowoomba

3. Albury-Wodonga

4. Ballarat

5. Bendigo

6. LaTrobe Valley

7. Rockhampton (I know some might say it's coastal, but it's on a river, about 100 km insland. Wagga Wagga is on a river too.)

8. Wagga Wagga

Taken from the List of cities in Australia by population article.

Shouldn't that make it the seventh/eighth largest? I know it is cited, but it is incorrect. Someone please prove me wrong before I change it, because I don't want to screw up the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewhicks93 (talk • contribs) 03:46 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * To get to eighth largest inland city, you have to
 * Combine Albury and Wodonga
 * Combine Moe, Traralgon, etc as one city (classing LGAs as "cities" opens up another whole bag of worms ...)
 * Class Rockhampton as an inland city despite it being on the tidal range of the Fitzroy River, much, much less than 100km inland (more like 40 km by road, much less as the crow flies.). See Fitzroy River Barrage (Queensland), the device that keeps tidal (salt) water out of Rockhampton's water supply. All this seems like special pleading and leaving the claim in as it is seems reasonable to me.
 * That said, I am not too fussed if the claim is removed entirely. What we cannot do is modify the claim based on the cite given; that would be classed as original research. We would need to find another cite stating specifically what we claim in the article. -- Mattinbgn\talk 05:31, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting point - where does that leave Launceston which is definitely inland?-- VirtualSteve need admin support? 07:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)
 * LaTrobe Valley is a region of towns rather then one city, Albury-Wodonga are two cites separated by a border and river and Rockhampton is coastal (as is Maitland). I'm not trying to support the claim and I do see your points but by removing those and adding Launceston it would make it (WW) the seventh largest inland city in Australia (OR however]). I wouldn't care about the removal of the claim as well, infact I've removed it. Bidgee (talk) 08:35, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

What about Bundaberg, Queensland? In the article it states that it is actually fifteen kilometres inland - meaning that it's not on the coast. The mouth of the river that it's situated on actually has a town called Burnett Heads, Queensland situated on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewhicks93 (talk • contribs) 05:11, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

I see your points. It might have been cited but in my opinion it is far too open to controversy to be included.

Thank you for removing it, Bidgee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matthewhicks93 (talk • contribs) 05:10, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

And I just read it - it says that "with an urban population of 46,700, it is the states largest inland city". The populations of Albury-Wodonga and LaTrobe Valley are both urban populations, making both of them valid. --Matthewhicks93 (talk) 01:03, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Um, how? Both are not one "city" but an artificial amalgamation of several cities (i.e. Albury and Wodonga). We should be careful not to confuse LGAs with urban areas and vice versa. -- Mattinbgn\talk 01:28, 20 January 2010 (UTC)
 * Ditto what Mattinbgn says Mathew - and as was detailed above Albury and Wondonga are not only two cities but they both reside in two different states with a big bridge complete with border sign; the Murray River; and about 10kms of road between them.-- VirtualSteve need admin support? 07:54, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay. What I'm trying to say is:

An urban area is a cluster of 1000 or more people living in the same place. The population of an urban area is called the "urban population".

Albury and Wodonga may be two seperate cities, but they form ONE urban area with ONE urban population. Same can be said for Moe, Morwell and Traralgon. If you disagree, you can check the List of cities in Australia by population article. The urban populations are in the middle between the SD and LGA definitions, and Albury-Wodonga and the LaTrobe Valley are both included as SINGLE urban areas with SINGLE urban populations.

The statement about Wagga Wagga said: "With an URBAN POPULATION of . . . . . . . and the nation's fifth largest inland city."

The statement referred to an URBAN population, not an LGA, metropolitan or SD population, which means that it can be compared to the single urban populations of Albury-Wodonga and LaTrobe Valley.

I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, and I'm open to being proved wrong, but I am VERY SURE that what I've said is acceptable. --Matthewhicks93 (talk) 01:59, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
 * When did Wagga move south or the border moved north? LaTrobe Valley is a region of towns (not a city) in Victoria, Wodonga is in Victoria, Albury and Wagga are in NSW. I really have no idea why you are arguing it. Bidgee (talk) 07:44, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

I was just justifying what I said earlier - but you know what, I'm done here, because I am sick of being heckled every time I try to day something. It's pointless. --Matthewhicks93 (talk) 12:04, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

What about Maitland? There are 60-70,000 people in that town? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.216.107.111 (talk) 10:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)


 * As you approach Wagga the roadsigns acclaim it as the largest inland city in NSW. This happens to still be true today in the sense that the larger cities are either not in NSW (eg. Canberra) or are on the coastal side of the Great Dividing Range; the only competition is Albury (which at last count is still smaller, and anyway is widely excluded due to its being only part of a border city). And this should be the most prominant claim we make here, not whether it is the nth largest city in some arbitrary larger region. Because such claims are not the foremost ones made by Wagga itself, and because if we go down that road there is no good place to stop (do we say nth biggest city in the territories claimed by the federal government organisation, and isn't that kind of an arbitrarily and artificial choice, why not nth biggest city in the Murray-Darling catchment basin region, or biggest in the Wiradjiri area, in fact we could include a plethora of categories, and then do we also still try to maintain the coastal/inland distinction even in regions where there is no significant coastal/inland geographic barrier and where major ports are located upriver in lieu of in harbours?), and because the ambiguity just multiplies out of hand (to calculate "n" we need a way of deciding whether to count particular places as one big city or as clusters of several cities, and that's basically impossible to agree upon sensibly, the whole endeavour is falsely Platonic). So just stick with the claim made by the topic's own council.


 * Some other noteable claims are that Wagga is the Asthma capital and the Teen Pregnancy capital. Cesiumfrog (talk) 05:54, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

Wagga population and the 2011 Census
Long standing (the discussion is archived at a few talk pages and don't have time to find them) that "Urban Centre/Locality" is to be used (where possible) in most New South Wales articles relating to a populated location. LGA populations belong in the LGA articles (e.g. City of Wagga Wagga), at this stage the "Urban Centre/Locality" will be released later in the year as part of the second release (see: Talk:List of cities in Australia by population). Please do not restore the incorrect figures since this isn't the LGA article, it is about the location. Bidgee (talk) 16:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 06:05, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Ford

 * The beginnings of a village formed near the ford used by most traffic passing through the area and included a crude blacksmith's shop, a hotel, and a post office.

This mention seems very nonspecific for such a detail as the origin of the settlement. Where exactly was this ford? (Is the referenced hotel one at a still existing address for example?) Are we talking about Sturt St? Were there many other such fords of the murrumbidgee? (E.g., how far did people tend to travel to cross there? Or alternatively, how far was it to the next blacksmith, post office, or hotel?) It also seems that the entire history section is rather heavily reliant on just a single source. Cesiumfrog (talk) 23:51, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The source is the definitive secondary source for the topic. Unless you you want use of primary sources, this is as good as it gets. There is no existing ford - funnily enough the city now has a number of bridges. How would you like the site of the ford exactly marked - coordinates? Perhaps the CSU archaeology unit can help! Its exact site may be an interesting archaeological question but it is not necessary to confirm the fact in question - Wagga Wagga was developed on the site of a ford. There is a reliable secondary source that supports this. Wagga Wagga - like many towns built on a river - was formed around a river crossing. See Shepparton and its formation around McGuire's Punt.


 * "Were there many other such fords of the murrumbidgee? (E.g., how far did people tend to travel to cross there? Or alternatively, how far was it to the next blacksmith, post office, or hotel?) Or alternatively, how far was it to the next blacksmith, post office, or hotel?" Why is any of this relevant to the point in question? Would the answers to any of these questions make the basic assertion - Wagga Wagga was formed around the site of a river crossing - incorrect or misleading? If so, how?


 * "It also seems that the entire history section is rather heavily reliant on just a single source." Go find others, if you wish. I assume you have a reason for casting doubt on the reliability of the source. Care to share?


 * This is starting to come across as being difficult for the sake of it but assuming good faith - if you still are not happy, there is always WP:GAR. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 00:13, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

The ford was likely at the Wiradjuri Reserve (site of the former police paddock)/North Wagga flats which is where the river bank is at its lowest and the river is shallow, great when the river is low but not when it has a bit of water in it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.146.88 (talk) 00:27, 9 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Mattinbgn, I don't know what you consider is the point in question, but I'm thinking the article would be improved by detailing the location where the village began. (Was it Sturt St or Wiradjuri Reserve or somewhere else? What was the place like in 1850? And what were the factors that governed the very early growth?) PS, there are legitimate reasons for preferring to avoid predominantly WP:1R sections. Cesiumfrog (talk) 03:14, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Only person talking about Sturt Street is you, fact is Sturt Street was Little Gurwood Street (has an interesting history but off topic), don't forget that you have the Golden Age (Duke of Kent), Mason's Arms (Tourist), Prince of Wales, Home Tavern, Riverina and Black Swan hotels near and next to the river. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.135.146.6 (talk) 04:07, 9 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You tagged the ford statement in the lede with fact and when this is corrected you then claim "this mention seems very nonspecific for such a detail as the origin of the settlement". Maybe I am obtuse but this sure comes across as a dispute over a fact - a rather uncontroversial fact supported by a reliable source. Expansion of the article to include more specific details of the ford and its location would of course be a good thing. This would be better included in History of Wagga Wagga sub-article rather than the main article lede IMO. Good luck finding reliable secondary sources identifying this site however.


 * As for your second point - yes, of course a wider variety of sources would be better - for obvious reasons such as avoiding bias and error etc. etc. If you can find another reliable secondary source then feel free to add information using this source - it would improve the article. I have my suspicions that reliable secondary sources on the history of provincial Australian cities are a little harder to come across than you seem to consider. In the interim, should we not use the sources that we have? IMO, this article is probably the best sourced article on any Australian city or town outside the capitals - and perhaps even better than some of them. Perfect? No, but more than adequate.


 * You have a range of options available to you. 1. Find additional sources and improve and expand the article. 2. Remove any statements that you think are inadequately sourced or where the source is wrong and/or misleading and provide support for any such claim. 3. If the article is that poor, then send the article to GAR or some other third party review. Ball is in your court. -- Mattinbgn (talk) 03:46, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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External links modified
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