Talk:Walam Olum/Archive 3

The Work
Could someone expand the section that tell about what the content of the work was? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Oorang (talk • contribs) 15:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

/* The "Real" Indigenous Chronology */
In 1998, Jay Miller wrote "Tsimshian Ethno-Ethnohistory: A "Real" Indigenous Chronology", which was published in Ethnohistory, Vol. 45, No. 4 (Autumn, 1998), pp. 657-674, Duke University Press. Abstract: the Tsimshian of the North Pacific Coast of Canada and Alaska insist that adawx, the term for one of their densely cultural epics, be translated as "history." Each saga is firmly based in their matrilineal social structure (of houses, clusters, towns, and clans) and intensely both private and personal within these kinship networks. Despite massive depopulation and crushing outside pressures, Tsim- shians have long committed themselves to perpetuating these "histories" because of their guarantees of renewing immortality, providing a sequence of at least fifteen episodic overlays across ten thousand years.

"Unfortunately, popularly and dubiously regarded as "myths," these epics have often been slandered by the insensitive and slighted by scholars seeking to impose their own sense of detail and linear chronology on much more complex narratives... Though discredited, the Walam Olum-purporting to be the Delaware account of their own migration from Siberia into the American Northeast-lists the sequence of chiefs who led them during various stages of this migration." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 22:06, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * A tribe's traditional oral history definitely is history, but the Walam Olum is not the oral history of the Delaware people. -Uyvsdi (talk) 22:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)Uyvsdi
 * According to Shell and Sollors, in 2002, "In the seventeenth century the lower Hudson Valley, the Delaware River basin, and the coastal region extending from Brooklyn down to both shores of Delaware Bay were home to a nation known as the Lenape (a word from their own language) or Delaware (a name given by English colonists)." See also: Squier, E. George. 1849. Historical and mythological traditions of the Algonquins; with a translation of the "Walum-Olum" or bark record of the Linni-Lenape. New York. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 04:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Yet another example is the Papago Calendar Stick. Kilcrease, A.T. 1939. Ninety five years of history of the Papago Indians. Southwestern Monuments Monthly Report, supplement for April, pp. 297-310. [Coolidge, Arizona], United States Department of the Interior, National Park Service. [Beginning in 1841 and ending in 1939, this is a year-by-year chronicle of events as recorded on a Papago calendar stick deciphered by Sevier Juan of Covered Wells. The stick was burned after Juan deciphered it.] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 01:58, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

/* Dr. Ward, Of Indiana */
Rafinesque wrote that he obtained the Walam Olum from Dr. Ward, of Indiana. Circumstantial Evidence points to the identity of this person being Dr. Malthus A. Ward. He was located at the White River, gave Rafinesque botanical specimens, and also kept notes on Lenape writing in his journals from the early 1820's. Sources: The Walam Olum and Dr. Ward, AgainAuthor(s): Charles BoeweSource: Indiana Magazine of History, Vol. 83, No. 4 (December 1987), pp. 344-359, www.jstor.org/stable/27791113

The Late Dr. Ward of Indiana": Rafinesque's Source of the Walam OlumAuthor(s): William Barlow and David O. PowellSource: Indiana Magazine of History, Vol. 82, No. 2 (June 1986), pp. 185-193. www.jstor.org/stable/27790973 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 00:08, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Interesting source- now added to article. David Trochos (talk) 07:07, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Boewe Says the case is not solved if Rafinesque mention that "the late Dr. Ward of Indiana" means the deceased Dr. Ward, rather than Dr. Ward, lately of Indiana." ...Though Rafinesque said he got the Walam Olum in Kentucky, he as firmly placed Dr. Ward in Indiana....Brinton's placing of Ward in Kentucky is so patently a conjecture that anyone less obsessed by the subject than Weer probably would have let the question drop." (see 1987 Boewe) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 03:43, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Article tweaked slightly (although to me personally, the way Dr Ward is mentioned parenthetically in Rafinesque's handwritten note on his 1833 manuscript indicates that the note is an outline of a story Rafinesque had concocted). David Trochos (talk) 07:22, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

/* Brian Swann */
In 1993, Brian Swann wrote On The Translation of Native American Literature, "given the history of this hemisphere, to settle for the dignity of mystery is far preferable to any claim of definitiveness." Swann, in 2005, edited Algonquian spirit: contemporary translations of the Algonquian literatures., Which has a chapter devoted to Oestreicher's interpretation of the Walam Olum followed by other stories about Lenape literature. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 03:51, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Gerald Vizenor wrote in 1994 "Native American Indian literatures have been overburdened with critical interpretations based on structuralism and other social science theories that value incoherent foundational representations of tribal experiences." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 01:33, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Unless Vizenor mentions the Walam Olum he's irrelevant to this article. However, the Swann book looks like an excellent source to enlarge this article.

Algonquian Spirit: Contemporary Translations of the Algonquian Literatures of North America Bison Books (December 1, 2005) ISBN-13: 978-0803293380 page 4 "In 1994 textual evidence was advanced demonstrating that the Walam Olum is spurious and that Constantinc Samuel Rafinesque, its alleged discoverer, was in fact its author (Oestreicher 1994). The so-called Delaware Indian pictographs are not Delaware at all but are in fact hybrid combinations of Egyptian, Chinese, Ojibwa, and even several Mayan symbols newly published at the time (Oestreicher 1994, 16-21; 1995b. 101-231). As for the accompanying "Delaware" text, it was fabricated by Rafinesque from the very sources he claimed to have used as translation aids: mainly, David Zeisberger's Grammar of the language of the Lenni Lenape Indians (1827) and John Ileckewelder's list of Lenape place and personal names (1834) (Oestreicher 1994, j-12; 1995b, 10-72). (Heckewelderand Zeisberger were both Moravian missionaries who had lived among the Lenape during the eighteenth and early nineteenth" centuries.)

page 6 "The various renditions of the Waiam Olum make clear that rather than confronting hard textual evidence that might have demonstrated the text fraudulent, the translators mainly rephrased the epic to conform to their own theories. Ironically, those theories often ran counter to those incorporated into the Walam Olum when it was first created. The different versions of the same Walam Olum verses presented in this study underscore the need for translators to put aside agendas and confront textual evidence squarely."
 * Native American Indian Literature is relevant to the topic because the Walam Olum is published in the Swann's book on Algonquian literature. It is clear that Algonquians are Native Americans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 00:58, 17 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Content of the Walam Olum was asked about before without response, and should be included. Andrew Widget published in 2005 about Native American Indian Literature on the Walam Olum content: ::::http://books.google.com/books?id=6DOl6wnyHJ4C&lpg=PA90&dq=walam%20olum%20epic&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false
 * Another reliable source is Jace Weaver's Book: That the people might live: Native American literature
 * http://books.google.com/books?id=08SkJw26qoMC&lpg=PA48&dq=lekhibit&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q=lekhibit&f=false


 * If this is asking for a more detailed summary of the content of the Walam Olum, I support the request, and I'll try to work something up over the weekend. David Trochos (talk) 07:42, 18 November 2010 (UTC)


 * See the following on page 11 for another detailed summary of the wallumolum. This is the source written by Dr. Linda Grover published in March 2009.

http://www.boisforte.com/documents/Feb-March.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 04:54, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

/* Lekhibit */
The Wallumolum claims to be written by Lekhibit in the text. Why is this fact not mentioned in this article?
 * Because it's not quite as simple as that. Explantion now added to summary of the W.O. David Trochos (talk) 06:57, 3 February 2011 (UTC)


 * There are a lot of books that state the Author of the WO is Lekhibit:

http://www.google.com/search?q=lekhibit&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 17:28, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The perils of Google, most of those are just copies of the same thing, a 'translation'. Dougweller (talk) 18:47, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The benefits of youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwEWAVYZKBc —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 04:14, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
 * "Ancient travelers to Chinklacamoose were first described in the "Red Record" or Walam Olum. This was an old collection of pictographs, or stick figure drawings, created over 3,600 years ago describing the creation and travels of the ancestors of the Lenape and Delaware Indians from their ancient homelands to their present day settlements throughout America." Legends of Clearfield County, Melvin Lingle. 2004.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.12.139 (talk) 04:21, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Comment
Here's a poorly cited quote + personal comment I removed from the article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:25, 26 June 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

More recently, in 2009 issue of the Bois Fort News, Dr. Linda Grover wrote "The Wallum Olum tells of the time before the Great Migration. This is an epic that begins with the Great Spirit creating the Earth, records the succession of families and clans, and recounts significant events such as visions, sicknesses, the Great Flood, the battle between good and evil, and a much earlier migration from the west. It was translated into English more than 200 ago, and although the translation is imperfect and clumsy the story and song is alive in its haunting, poetic beauty." Bois Fort News, Dr. Linda Grover. Mii gwetch, Lenni Lenapi."
 * Linda Grover has no expertise for such a statement and the IP knows this as he's been involved in this article for a long time. And it is clear OR to add a general comment about Indian literature - sources need to discuss the subject. These are two separate issues and the IP is welcome to take the OR issue to WP:NORN and argue that it isn't original research and Linda Grover to WP:RSN and argue that she's a reliable source. Dougweller (talk) 20:02, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Andrew Widget published in 2005 about Native American Indian Literature on the Walam Olum content: ::::http://books.google.com/books?id=6DOl6wnyHJ4C&lpg=PA90&dq=walam%20olum%20epic&pg=PA90#v=onepage&q&f=false

Another reliable source is Jace Weaver's Book: That the people might live: Native American literature http://books.google.com/books?id=08SkJw26qoMC&lpg=PA48&dq=lekhibit&pg=PA48#v=onepage&q=lekhibit&f=false See the following on page 11 for another detailed summary of the wallumolum. This is the source written by Dr. Linda Grover published in March 2009. http://www.boisforte.com/documents/Feb-March.pdf


 * Dr. Grover is certainly an expert on this topic and more than qualified to make "such a statement" http://www.d.umn.edu/~amind/main/Grover.php


 * Ah, a different Grover. Hardly a detailed summary though. You seem to think she is better qualified than Oestricher - is that on the basis of the courses she teaches, eg AmIn 3420 American Indians in Sports, AmIn 4640 American Indians in the Movies, American Indian Women, and American Indians and the Media |American+Indian+Studies+-+AMIN&searchFullYearEnrollmentOnly=false&Submit=View |American%20Indian%20Studies#AMIN1606? Her PhD is in Education..
 * I am also curious about why you are saying a 1994 book was published in 2005. And why a mysterious IP suddenly appears to save you from a 3RR warning. Dougweller (talk) 06:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * The same Dr. Linda Grover wrote the article that teaches American Indian Studies. Oestreicher is an "independent scholar", meaning he is not employed as a teacher. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 14:05, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * You haven't answered my question about how 1994 became 2005. Yes, Grover teaches American Indian studies - Indians in the media, Indians in sport, etc. She has no relevant qualifications either that I can find. She seems to write some good fiction (I mean real fiction, you know, stories). Oestreicher not being a teacher is irrelevant, he has a number of published articles and is quoted in others and in books, all reliable sources. He's qualified to comment, Grover is not. Dougweller (talk) 14:09, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Note that using another IP to revert me looks like editwarring and hitting 3RR. Dougweller (talk) 15:13, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
 * And for the IPs, the first claim being added to the article is irrelevant: the controversy about the WO isn't whether an appropriate critical interpretation is being used for Native American literature, but whether it's an example of Native American literature at all. The second looks like an end-run around the consensus that the WO is a forgery, and the author doesn't appear to have any authority for declaring it genuine: no background in Algonquian linguistics or literature, document forensics, or the like. As an opinion on the WO's literary value it might be valuable in some contexts, but the source is not a work on NA literature or a statement of the Lenape, but instead a newsletter from a non-Lenape group (the only apparent connection between the two is a distant linguistic one). Ergative rlt (talk) 03:15, 28 June 2011 (UTC)


 * The IPs have both been blocked for a month as sockpuppets of indefinitely blocked Marburg72. See Sockpuppet investigations/Marburg72. Dougweller (talk) 06:29, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa: Emmy Award winning movie on the Ojibwe, which includes the Wallum Olum. Companion Book Thomas Peacock and Marlene Wisuri. This is the story of the Anishinaabe, or Ojibwe people, who have lived on the North American continent for many thousands of years. Beginning in the dim past and continuing to the present, Ojibwe: We Look in All Directions chronicles in text, photography and illustration the saga of a still vibrant and evolving people, still strong in their ways. What is known of Ojibwe origins begins soon after the last ice age, recorded by their Lenape ancestors on bark tablets and song sticks in an epic poem, the Wallum Olum.

http://www.ojibwe.org/

http://www.ojibwe.org/home/about_anish_timeline.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.36.249 (talk) 00:50, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

Continued edits concerning Ojibwe.org
As has already been brought up here and at the relaible sources noticeboard, this is not an acceptable reference for the stated undue claim. Ergative rlt (talk) 00:50, 22 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Morons of Wikipedia, read the sources provided "Pre-Contact-1500 BC - The epic story of the west to east migration of the Lenni Lanape, ancient ancestors of the Anishinabe people, begins and is recorded as the Wallum Olum (an ancient written record on bark tablets and song sticks). It is the oldest written record of people in North America and dates back to before 1600 B.C." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.147.120.26 (talk) 20:13, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Personal attacks aren't going to help you convince anyone, especially those of use familiar with Delaware oral history, that this hoax is anything other than a hoax. -Uyvsdi (talk) 20:37, 4 August 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi