Talk:Walid Jumblatt/Archive 1

Unprofessional and non-encyclopedic language
"But all the Lebanese people like him because he is funny and has nice jokes." is a ridiculous statement that has no place in an encyclopedia. I think you wil lfind that not all Lebanese like anyone, Jumblat or anyone else. Stop exaggerating, stop inserting nonsense, and lear to cite reliable sources. --AladdinSE 12:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Possible addition
I think the the following quote from his interview with David Ignatius would be a good addition. Unfortunately, there's no good place to put it without some major rewrite. The last few paragraphs aren't even organized chronologically. "It's strange for me to say it, but this process of change has started because of the American invasion of Iraq, I was cynical about Iraq. But when I saw the Iraqi people voting three weeks ago, 8 million of them, it was the start of a new Arab world. The Syrian people, the Egyptian people, all say that something is changing. The Berlin Wall has fallen. We can see it." Nathanm mn 04:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

photo
Can someone find a better photo of Jumblatt? Having a photo of him itching his head isnt the best for an encyclopedia entry. - chrisio22


 * Look; if you would be in his place, you would also be scratching your head; what am I going to do next! This photo might just perfectly represent his position in Lebanon. Itzse 20:21, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Untitled
please sign your messages! --AladdinSE 03:20, 27 December 2005 (UTC) Here is an interesting anecdote about Walid Jumblatt. This is a direct quote from Thomas Friedman's "From Beirut to Jerusalem":

Walid's father, Kemal, was assassinated, purportedly by Syrian agents, in Lebanon in 1977, when he dared to openly cross [former Syrian President Hafez al-] Assad. Walid was fond of telling friends about a particularly memorable meeting he later had with the Syrian President. Walid was ushered into Assad's huge office and at a distance he could see the President sitting behind his desk...As Walid approached, Assad greeted him warmly with the traditional Arabic salutation "Ahlan wa sahlan, ahlan wa sahlan"--my house is your house. The two men got to talking, and Assad in his roundabout manner intimated to Walid how he expected him to behave with regard to a certain situation developing in Lebanon. Walid evinced some reluctance. At one point, according to Walid, Assad looked at him lovingly and told him, with his thin smile, "You know, Walid, I look at you sitting there and you remind me of exactly of your dear father. What a man he was. What a shame he is not with us. Ahlan wa sahlan. Walid immediately understood that he was being made an offer he could not refuse. --Bash 03:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC). fixed the spacingGodspeed John Glenn! Will 20:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Importance of Article
on my watchlist i've seen various tagline discussions whether the article is important or not. But i haven't seen the home page of the discussions. So here are my thoughts on it. In a consociational or confessional system of governing such as Lebanon, the elites are everything. As the prime leader of the Druze community, Jumblatt is a key. Along with Hariri, Berri-Nasrallah, Aoun, Jaja, Gemayel, etc he helps run the country. True, he increases his power with triangulation and playing off one group against the other(as they all do) b/ that doesn't detract from his importance.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 11:58, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The description of mid-importance articles for WikiProject Lebanon is "Many readers will be familiar with the topic being discussed, but a larger majority of readers may have only cursory knowledge of the overall subject." The description of low-importance articles is "Few readers outside of Lebanon or that are not within the local area of the article's topic may be familiar with the subject matter. It is likely that the reader does not know anything at all about the subject before reading the article." My feeling is that Hariri and Nasrallah are likely the politicans (of those you listed) that best meet the description of mid-importance articles, however I'm not opposed to making those you listed all mid-importance articles. I'm currently going through all the unrated articles and rating them based on my judgement, so it's a far from infallible process. One thing to note about Jumblatt is that the Druze he leads makes up less than 5% of the Lebanese populous, which was my thinking in my inital rating, combined with his relative obscurity in Western media. I'm actually more surprised by WikiProject Syria's rating of Jumblatt, as I would think he would have a very low importance relative to Syria, as just one outspoken critic from a foreign country. — George [ talk  ] 13:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I see your point George vis as vis Jumblatt's weight w/ respect to Syria. As far as numerosity that has no bearing in a consociational system. The Lebanese electoral system has always given the Druze disproportionate power. History and great power politics has also given them leverage. Financed by the British contra French influence 19th Century. The Druze mililtia was crucial in West Beirut in the Civil War and the battle of Souk El Gharb. Numerosity of populace is not always a determining factor witness the Alawi dominance in Syria. Jumblatt's importance to Syria is crucial now as he has turned on the regime becoming a Neocon servant calling for regime change in Dimasqh. The Druze span several countries serving in the Israeli Army, and living in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights which is also called Jebel Druze. They are the fiercest opponents of the Israeli occupation. Believing in incarnation, Heaven for them becomes not a physical place but closeness to God and Hell- separation from him- concepts which Christian theology recently has mirrored. In the Druze pentagram each color stands for an important concept- a religion well worth studying.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 20:02, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Requesting to add a new link
This article is about walid junblatt, his political background & on his influence on the Mediterranean events.

http://omedia.org/Show_Article.asp?DynamicContentID=1777&MenuID=726&ThreadID=1014017

Please notice that Omedia is an academic and not a commercial site – it sells nothing and doesn't even have ads in it.

is this link fit to enter the related links list ?

Verbal Intemperance
Deleted- by user w/ no comment or talk. user has just an IP address, see history
 * "Jumblatt has the reputation for quickly switching sides for political gain, and has a predilection for saying things that prove embarrassing once he does switch sides. On the failed rocketing of Paul Wolfowitz in Baghdad in 2003 Jumblatt said "We hope that next time the rockets will be more accurate and effective in getting rid of this virus, and his like, who wreak corruption in the Arab lands." Additionally, he has called Bashar Assad "a half ape," George W. Bush a "Mad Emperor," Condoleezza Rice "Oil-Colored," Tony Blair a "Peacock With a Sexual Complex," and he also stated that "My joy was great at the Columbia Disaster because of the death of an Israeli Astronaut."
 * Godspeed John Glenn! Will 18:25, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Deleted again, User said POV pushing and source unreliable.
 * ," and he also stated that "My joy was great at the Columbia Disaster because of the death of an Israeli Astronaut."*More recently, Mr. Jumblatt gave an interview to Al-Sharq Al-Awsat on February 12, 2004, in which he said:

"We are all happy when U.S. soldiers are killed [in Iraq] week in and week out. The killing of U.S. soldiers in Iraq is legitimate and obligatory." The Progressive Socialist Party leader has also said he felt "great joy" at the 2002 destruction of the U.S. Space Shuttle Columbia, because it carried an Israeli astronaut.There's another source. He definitely said it. To editorialize, there is an Arabic proverb your tongue is your tongue ride it or it will ride you. He could profit from it. Sweeping his verbal intemperance under the rug is tampering with the truth.Godspeed John Glenn! Will 19:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The Edits contradicting with WP:BLP

 * After the sudden Israeli withdrawal from the Chouf Mountain of Lebanon in August 1982 and later in 1983, Jumblatt's FSP militia together with its Palestinian and Syrian allies, backed by Soviet weaponry from Syria, overran some 60 Maronite villages, killing thousands. He secured a FSP victory and solidified his position as leader of the Druze over his rivals the Arslan family. In securing access to the sea for the Chouf Druze heartland at the expense of Maronite villages, he set up future tension with the Shia by bisecting their territorial contiguity.

Explanation: Even though both Edits aren’t referenced I tried to Edit the Information to be more realistic since he didn’t overran maronite villages but battled with Lebanese Front or mainly the Lebanese Forces who controlled mount Lebanon after the Israeli invasion and he also lost thousands of his militia men during this battle and Syria didn’t participate in the battles neither did the Palestinians But its clear the prior edits are prejudiced because it didn’t consider the war as political but as “religious” while members of  Lebanese Communist Party that had Maronite members a were strong allies to walid Jumblatt during the war.

Also in 1983 there was no rivalry between him and the “Arslans” since they are a minority feudal party and their current leader Talal Arslan was still a teenager during that times.


 * Second about the shiite territorial contuinity its simply absurd since during that times the Shiites were presented by Amal rather than the pan-islamist Hizbollah and thus didn't have a territorial contiguity and the Lebanese coastal line is not a Shiite one.


 * He has a successful record of changing allegiances to ensure that the sectarian interests of the Druze emerge on the winning side of the political issues and conflicts shaping Lebanon, from the turmoil of the 1975-1990 civil war to Lebanon's reconstruction. Like several other sectarian leaders, he was a supporter of the Syrian military

Explanation:The Editor twisted the BBC reference to impose his point of view and using POV language such as sectarian and working for the Druze is not found in the reference so I added the information as it was intended on BBC


 * Walid Jumblatt is regarded by many of his people as a National saviour, with many aims to overthrow the Lebanese government by emerging with as many sectors of the Lebanese government as possible. Walid has a very hypocritical reputation amongst the Lebanese people varying from Sunni, Shia, Christians and all kinds of cultures living among the political side of lebanon. Walid is known to "stand with the strong side" when in doubt of his own powers. In a recent document shown by Future TV Walid is shown conversing with billionaire Saed Harirri about the way the couple will plan on giving up whatever it takes to overthrow Sanyora's government so they can head the government.

Explanation: No references and I Have no comment.


 * And the last section titled controversial remarks .Its obvious that its aimed to slander Walid Jumblatt by cutting out certain phrases he said during interviews to say that he is a hypocrite or whatever it was trying to say…by placing them without their original context and their place isn’t Wikipedia.

So I think an article about a prominent Lebanese politician who’s been working in politics for 31 years… Shouldn’t become a tabloid for his numerous enemies to place their POVs that is aimed to '''defame him as a person and as a politician. '''Hiram111 (talk) 23:25, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Rather than trying to decide between two unreferenced versions, you could try deleting both, or else try to find references. (I hope this message sounds civil. I'm trying to edit it for tone.)
 * WP:LIVING says, "Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space."
 * The BBC source doesn't use the word "sectarian". It does say he's the leader of the Druze clan, though.  I think the word "sectarian" probably shouldn't be used if it isn't in the source: it doesn't sound NPOV.
 * I agree that a collection of negative-sounding quotes taken out of context isn't the purpose of a Wikipedia article: it looks like original research to me to collect them like that.
 * This statement seems to be unreferenced: "Jumblatt has the reputation for quickly switching sides for political gain, and a predilection for saying things that prove embarrassing once he does switch sides. " The reference doesn't contain the name "Jumblatt":  It's also a pejorative statement; it doesn't sound NPOV.   One of the references says "A leader of Lebanon's Druze community and the Progressive Socialist Party, Mr Jumblatt is known for his outspoken remarks on various issues." Something like this could be said in the article, but not in stronger words than in the source. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 00:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your comment Coppertwig Ill remove the unsourced materials until references are found. Hiram111 (talk) 21:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * What are the sources for the statements that "Walid has a very hypocritical reputation" and "[Jumblatt and Hariri] will plan on giving up whatever it takes to overthrow Sanyora's government so they can head the government"? ← George [ talk  ] 03:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

For the "Military life" section which states: "After the sudden Israeli withdrawal from the Chouf Mountain of Lebanon in August 1982 and later in 1983, Jumblatt's FSP militia together with its Palestinian and Syrian allies, backed by Soviet weaponry from Syria, overran some 60 Maronite villages, killing thousands. He secured a FSP victory and solidified his position as leader of the Druze over his rivals the Arslan family. In securing access to the sea for the Chouf Druze heartland at the expense of Maronite villages, he set up future tension with the Shia by bisecting their territorial contiguity. His opponent and leader of the Lebanese Armed Forces Eighth Brigade at the Chouf Mountain village of Souk El Gharb, General Michel Aoun is again his opponent, but at the ballot box.";

Here is a direct quote from the source: "Armed with massive amounts of Syrian-supplied Soviet weaponry, Jumblatt's militia began driving LF forces out of the Shouf in the fall of 1983. When Israeli forces pulled out of the area in August-September 1983, Jumblatt's forces overran sixty Maronite villages, slaughtering around 1,000 people and driving 50,000 out of their homes. in the mountainous areas east and west of Beirut. When Jumblatt's militia overstepped itself and attempted to overrun the Souq al-Gharb pass protecting the capital, Lebanese army troops commanded by Michel Aoun brought the offensive to a halt. Nevertheless, Jumblatt's victory made him the undisputed leader of the Druze community, a position which has not been seriously contested to this day."

As for the "Jumblatt in politics" section about Jumblatt always lining up with the winning side, here's a quote from the source: "Over the last twenty years, Jumblatt has repeatedly lined up on the winning side in the tangled web of foreign and domestic struggles that have engulfed Lebanon. He is the weathervane of Lebanese politics." GreenEcho (talk) 23:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll ask again, What are the sources for the statements that "Walid has a very hypocritical reputation" and "[Jumblatt and Hariri] will plan on giving up whatever it takes to overthrow Sanyora's government so they can head the government", or have you abandoned those statements? Also, you continue to revert the page to your preferred version without citing sources in the article itself. ← George [ talk  ] 23:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay GreenEcho place the referenced text as it is, without adding POV text to it as you did to the BBC reference (even though the edit wasn't originally done by you, right???)  and unreferenced  minor POVs or lets say referenced "conspiracy theories" should be removed. «  Hiram 111  Δ TalK Δ 09:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality tag?
There hasn't been discussion for months so I have to ask, why is there still a neutrality tag in this article? If no reasons are given, I'll have to remove it. --Al Ameer son (talk) 19:24, 30 July 2009 (UTC)