Talk:Walt Disney World Railroad/Archive 1

Untitled
The article is too personal with unnecessary punctuation like exclamation marks inappropriate places, and the article is to daunting - the paragraphs are too thick etc. I have added a cleanup tag to the article.--Speedway 18:45, May 16, 2005 (UTC)

I edited the introduction and "history" sections, cutting out a lot of uncessary details and redundant information, and cleaning up the syntax considerably. The rest of the article needs a lot of work, and I will check in later when I have more time to see if I can tackle another section or two. --PabSungenis 21:24, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Made a number of other changes, getting rid of redundancies and tightening most of the text. It could still stand some polishing, so I'll leave the "cleanup" tag until someone else decides it's worth removing. --PabSungenis 01:25, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Personal note on Mexican locomotive
I have fond memories of the old steam locomotive still running from Mérida, Yucatán to Izamal at least as late as 1977. When I saw the train was replaced by a diesel about 1980 I asked what happened to the old engine; I was told it had been "sold to Walt Disney". I hoped maybe some day to see it again at the Magic Kingdom. A shame to hear "It was presumed scrapped." -- Infrogmation 15:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Information, your source must have been mistaken. All of the locomotives purchased for the Magic Kingdom were delivered to Florida in 1969 (ref: M. Broggie 1997,2005). None of the other Disney locomotives (Tokyo, Paris, etc.) came from Mexico. Bill321 18:44, 12 November 2006 (EST)

Vandalism
I don't know if I would call it vandalism or just edits gone back, but if yo ulook at the revision history, all kinds of edits were made with various characters changed or dropped. I reverted back to the last known good edit. HawkeyeFLA (talk) 18:21, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

operation during parties
I was at Walt Disney World, Magic Kingdom recently (December 2014). We rode the Railroad during Mickeys very special Christmas party. They had two trains running. Dave C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.103.184.76 (talk) 07:52, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

"Imagineers"
This is an in-universe term, created by the Walt Disney Corporation to present the image that their theme parks are "magical worlds" full of "cast members" and such, rather than businesses with ... gulp ... employees. Wikipedia, meanwhile, is an encyclopedia. We describe things as they are, which may conflict with the promotional language used by advertisers promoting their products. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 01:26, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree, per WP:INUNIVERSE. This term, and various other unsourced information, has repeatedly been added by an IP-hopper. No doubt, it will be added again. Thanks for raising this issue here, but I doubt that it will be the final time "imagineers" will show up in the article. I do make a habit of making an AIV report if the same IP does this more than once. Occasionally there will be a block. Sundayclose (talk) 02:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Please also see my attempt at the broader issue ("cast members", etc.) at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disney. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 02:28, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Lack of sources
Yes, I added unreferenced section tags to numerous sections. Why? They are sections that do not cite independent reliable sources. The overwhelming majority of this article is unreferenced trivia. Much of it is likely personal observations and similar original research. How do we sort out what is what? The easiest way is sourcing. Wikipedia is not intended to be a repository of everything anyone has ever noticed about anything. Instead, Wikipedia is intended to be a collection of information about notable topics, summarized from independent reliable sources. Over the next month or so, I'll see what I can find about the topic and see what anyone else can add. I'll also be trimming a lot of trivia and unverifiable info. In the end, we'll either have a well sourced article or, if there isn't much info, a redirect to Walt Disney World. Thoughts, comments, etc.? - Sum mer PhD v2.0 16:42, 29 February 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with what you trimmed and with any additional cuts of unsourced information. Then there would be little left of the article, which can easily be incorporated into the WDW article with a redirect here. Sundayclose (talk) 01:33, 1 April 2016 (UTC)
 * I moved the very small amount of sourced information to Magic Kingdom and created a redirect to that article. All of the images are in Wikimedia Commons if needed, except File:Magic Kingdom - Walt Disney World Railroad poster.jpg; anyone can feel free to upload to Commons. Sundayclose (talk) 22:32, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Would either of you two object to me re-writing this article from scratch? It would begin as a stub starting with the only two references already present in the previous version of the article (both of which were added by me in the past), but that can be a starting point for others to add to it.  It just doesn't seem logical that most of the other notable Disney rail lines have their own articles, while this one only has a redirect.   Jackdude 101  ( Talk )  4:25, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for being courteous enough to ask. I would strongly suggest not using the other articles as a model. There are problems with them also. Disneyland Railroad is very similar to the way this article was: lots of unsourced, anecdotal personal experiences, which is the worst way to write a Wikipedia article. When I have time I probably will discuss there doing the same thing that was done here. Be very mindful of WP:V and WP:RS. Don't include any unsourced comments, especially from personal experiences. Let me suggest that you write a draft in your user space (I can explain if you don't know how), post a link here, and let us know when you finish each section so others can make suggestions. I don't think you could create an article much worse than the previous version, but I hope it will be a substantial improvement. Thanks for your efforts. I'll ping so she is aware of this discussion. Sundayclose (talk) 16:38, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * Sundayclose seems to be on the same page as me: avoid first hand accounts; find independent reliable sources; don't assume that other articles are heading in the right direction. Blogs, material from the corporation, etc. are worse than useless. Remember that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tour guide, blog, etc. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 18:34, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * You mentioned material from the corporation. What about basic information from the attraction's official website?  It mentions that the line is 1.5 miles long.  Is using this source permissible for this specific piece of information?   Jackdude 101  ( Talk )  19:52, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * For uncontested, very basic info, they're fine. For anything beyond that, no. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 20:58, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
 * I started a template as a starting point for the article on my sandbox page: User:Jackdude101/sandbox. I ordered a few books on the topic (ISBN 0975858424 and ISBN 9781423117148) and will be using those as primary sources once they arrive.   Jackdude 101  ( Talk )  3:32, 11 June 2016 (UTC)
 * While we wait for my books, I uploaded a few pictures to Wikimedia Commons I took myself two years ago in the WDWRR's Main Street, U.S.A. station here:, , , . They are pictures of plaques containing surprisingly generous details about each of the four locomotives on the line (typically, Disney is incredibly secretive about the under-the-surface details of its attractions).  Would the info from these plaques be considered adequate sources in Wikipedia?   Jackdude 101  ( Talk )  1:12, 14 June 2016 (UTC)
 * IMO, we have three basic issues here.
 * Notability - Primary sources are completely worthless here. A university talking about an employee, a company talking about a product, a theme park talking about its trains; no matter how much they have to say are moot points. We need coverage in independent reliable sources.
 * Reliable sources - Coverage in mainstream newspapers/magazines, books and such are what we are looking for here. For very basic non-controversial info, we can accept primary sources (such as these plaques). We are not looking to take much here (see next point). It's a bit hard to pin down, but for a famous person, we might get date of birth, hometown, schooling and such. For the present topic, we might find the year the railroad was opened, how many engines they have and little else.
 * Level of detail/WP:WEIGHT/etc. - This is likely to be a bit of a problem. At the intersection of kids' articles (kids' TV shows/movies, anything Disney, etc.) and trains we tend to find a fairly small number of dedicated editors who want to add absolutely everything there is to say about any of those topics. Sourcing becomes difficult (what they "know" is true often doesn't appear in independent sources). Interpretation of material is a challenge. For my own editing, I deliberately avoid anything I have a close connection to or feel strongly about. These editors tend to be from the other side of that coin: they include diehard fans, Aspies and such. The best parallel I can think of is writing a plot summary. A random person can easily sum up the plot of a Star Wars film in under 700 words. A fan who saw the film several times in the theatre, through a mask, while live-blogging can't seem to week out the details. The current article is an example of this phenomenon. - Sum mer PhD v2.0 02:23, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Sum mer PhD v2.0 and Sundayclose, I have finished re-writing the entire WDWRR article and have uploaded it, using the article for the Hogwarts Express (Universal Orlando Resort) (an article with good article status about another themed rail transport attraction in the same area) as a style and structural frame of reference. Altogether, memory-wise, the article is just under 80% of the size of the previous version. I'm 100% confident that both of you will like this version of the article much better.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 19:20, 19 June 2016 (UTC)

Additional information
The following information has just be removed by user:Sundayclose with the comment "Reverted 3 edits by 24.211.114.135: As usual with the IPs who insist on degrading this article, these edits are unsourced, poorly sourced, and/or copyright violations." I personally assume good faith, think it might be worth being re-entered, if necessary in a slightly re-written way. I don't think that this information was added with the intent to "degrade" the article.


 * All four steam locomotives have been overhauled in recent years at the Tweetsie Railroad workshop in Blowing Rock, North Carolina. They traveled to and from Western North Carolina via flatbed truck. Reference: http://trn.trains.com/~/media/files/pdf/web-exclusives/trn-i0110.pdf
 * The No.4 "Roy O. Disney" locomotive's whistle had came from the "Admiral Joe Fowler" riverboat which had been taken to dry dock for routine rehab in 1980. While the boat was being lifted by crane, it slipped and the hull was completely destroyed in fall 1980. The boat was then retired due to "mechanical problems". Reference: http://www.bigbrian-nc.com/wdw-pc05.htm#fowler

After opening

 * Around May 1972, a second train station is opened as a stop for "Frontierland". Reference: http://www.omniluxe.net/wyw/frlrs1.htm
 * In June 18, 1988, a third train station is opened to celebrate Mickey's 60th birthday on a new theme land called "Mickey's Birthdayland". The Walt Disney World Railroad was temporarily renamed "Mickey's Birthdayland Express". In 1990, the theme land was renamed Mickey's Starland and finally Mickey's Toontown Fair in 1996. Reference: http://www.wdwforgrownups.com/articles/disney-history-remembering-mickeys-birthdayland-starland-and-toontown-fair --NearEMPTiness (talk) 04:31, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
 * ✅ Info added, but I used different sources.  Jackdude 101  ( Talk ) 14:39, 14 January 2017 (UTC)