Talk:Walter Tull

Future plans to recognise Walter Tull's military contribution
I took out the following as it did not follow on from the previous section and without a citation appeared to be speculation and promotion of a commercial venture To secure the posthumous award of Walter's Military Cross; a site for a symbolic physical representation of the contribution of Tull and other black soldiers to Britain's military history; and funding both for a screenplay dramatising the incredible life of this remarkable human being, and a stage play by Maya Productions, to tour regional and rural venues. If you can find a source for this information with some rewording to avoid the promotional context this would be relevant to include, lets discuss. Tmol42 (talk) 17:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

First Combat Commissioned Officer?
Edward Braithwaite mentions James Swaby as being commissioned as lieutenant in the British Army. Can anyone shed more light on this claim? Leutha (talk) 23:18, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
 * There seem to be more than one James Swaby (variously spelt) in England in the early part of 19th century. Ones which might be him do not refer to him as an commissioned officer but use the term 'gent'. I see you have also created a rather rough article now about James, but can you clarify on the James Swaby article page where it is more appropriate to discuss this what the citatons actually record regarding James Swaby life in Jamaica and England. Tmol42 (talk) 21:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

Earlier black/mixed race officers
It seems that Tull's commision is now known to have been pre-dated by at least two others:


 * BBC News: The officer who refused to lie about being black

Nick Cooper (talk) 11:50, 17 April 2015 (UTC)


 * Some other officers (from FWW and before) who have been identified as black, of Afro-Caribbean descent, or mixed heritage:
 * James Swaby commissioned in 1814 as a lieutenant in the infantry
 * Nathaniel Wells, the son of a white plantation owner and a black slave, received a Yeomanry commission in 1818,
 * Allan Noel Minns, DSO, MC, was commissioned in the Royal Army Medical Corps in September 1914; he was born in Norfolk but his great grandmother had been a slave,
 * David Clemetson was commissioned in the territorial Pembroke Yeomanry in October 1915,
 * George Edward Kingsley Bemand, born in Kingston, Jamaica, on 19 March 1892; he was educated at Dulwich College and  University College London where he joined the London University Officers Training Corps. He was commissioned in the Royal Field Artillery in May 1915 and killed on 26 December 1916. On his attestation form he categorised himself as being of "pure European descent".


 * Tull was clearly not the first black or mixed heritage officer in the British Army, nor the first to be killed; possibly he was the first in an infantry regiment of the regular army to lead men in combat. Nedrutland (talk) 14:40, 26 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Now a WP for George Bemand. Nedrutland (talk) 11:24, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Tull was never recommended for an MC
The only mention of this is in a letter of condolence sent by 2nd Lieutenant Pickard to Tull's family. He says "He had been recommended for the Military Cross and had certainly earned."

This has led to a campaign for a posthumous MC based on the mistaken belief that he'd been refused one because of racism.

However, the MoD have made clear that there was never a recommendation and there is no record of one in his full service record held at the National Archives.

This was simply a letter of condolence to a grieving family. If there is no record of any recommendation being passed up the hierarchy, and no record in his service files, then the MoD are right to say he was never recommended for one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ganpati23 (talk • contribs) 20:05, 7 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Indeed. And the letter may have been phrased to be sympathetic to his family, just as families were often spared gory details of death and instead told that a soldier died peacefully etc. We really do need to be careful how we word things in this article because it has in the past been very heavily biassed to reflect campaigners' demands etc. - Sitush (talk) 06:55, 6 November 2017 (UTC)


 * There is a good look at the info for a MC recommendation by Chris Baker here. Nedrutland (talk) 13:25, 21 June 2018 (UTC)

Manual of Military Law
The text currently reads "Tull was commissioned as a second lieutenant ... despite the 1914 Manual of Military Law specifically excluding soldiers that were not "of pure European descent" from becoming commissioned officers." I have tagged this as dubious.

The 1914 Manual of Military Law is available on line https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015031059614;view=1up;seq=216. The phrase "of pure European descent" is found just once (page 198, Ch XI, s 15) with reference only to the Special Reserve of Officers which was a small subset of British Army Officers. There it states that Special Reserve Officers can be “natural born or naturalised British subjects of pure European descent”. Nedrutland (talk) 09:22, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi Nedrutland, that same terminology is listed and applied to the British Indian army, it also occurs in the commonwealth (dominions at that time) laws based on the British stance of institutional racism (seen from out later perspective). The Law's as written, only need to apply this sentence and terminology once, it then applies for all laws and sentences that follows, it was in effect categorical and specific and imo not dubious at all. Also to note Tull was in the Reserve which was a LARGE sub-set, including all territorial forces and many of the conscripts and volunteers. Finally, there may of been an unwritten adjustment to these laws, however, if that was the case, these had not taken legal effect at this time, so at a bare minimum, the army bent the rules or circumvented the published laws of the time. ThoughtsThe Original Filfi (talk) 23:15, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

The first ...? claims
Various claims have been made about Tull. He was clearly not the first Black or mixed-heritage British Army officer; was he possibly the first infantry officer in the British Army or "the British Army's first ever black officer to command white troops" or "the first black officer to lead white troops" or the "first black combat Officer".

Nedrutland (talk) 19:15, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
 * "first infantry officer"; no - James Swaby
 * "first to command or lead white troops"; Swaby/Bemand/Minns et al. were officers who commanded white troops
 * "first to command or lead white troops in battle"; possibly - if you exclude artillery
 * "first British-born black army officer"; no - Minns
 * "first British-born black infantry officer" - possibly
 * "first black British infantry officer to lead troops into battle" - possibly

Info box needs changing
At the moment it's using the football infobox, however it should be using a combined info box for military person also. However I am not sure if the top should be  or start with   with the other two embedded. Govvy (talk) 11:19, 16 November 2020 (UTC)