Talk:Walter Winchell/Archive 1

Untitled
I have looked but can't find in my sources the history of his movement from paper to paper in New York, I believe he worked for 3 or 4, at one he was replaced by Ed Sullivan......

Also I recall the "Winchell" spelling was intended not just to anglicize "Winchel" but to distance himself from the Jewish "Winschel" of his grandfather and "Weinschel" of his ancestors.... again I cannot find reference... anybody else see either of these things in print?--Pmeisel 01:12, 15 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Wasn't he noted for going after Josephine Baker? Is that in there and I missed it?--T. Anthony 17:13, 11 December 2005 (UTC)


 * IIRC, Winchell was a big fan of Josephine Baker, a black entertainer. At the Stork Club one night, the staff refused to serve Baker and her party; Winchell was there, but did not speak up to help her, nor did he discuss it on his show. Baker called Winchell out on it, and Winchell turned against her, with his comments getting more and more racial in turn. Whether that's all true or not, I don't know, but that's the way I remember it. Rattlerbrat 11:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Wall Street traders Frank Kennedy and Sam Revitz from C.J.Devine Company (acquired by Merrill Lynch in the early 1970's). were part of a group of carousers that hung out at the Cotton Club in the late thirties early forties and got to know Walter Winchell very well. William J. Conway, Jr. also became friends with Mr. Winchell over the years.

Spelling
Whatever the spelling of his birth name was, Winchell needs to be referred to throughout the article with the spelling of the name which he used to become famous and is best-known by. The article John Wayne is not a redirect from Marion Morrison, it's the other way around, and Cary Grant is not found under "Archibald Leach". Let's stick with the famous name.

Birth Name
Someone used 'Weinschel' for birth name in infobox. That appears to have been one possible prior name of his father's family. His father apparently chose Winchel, to which he was born. Infobox changed, based on numerous web searches incl. Brittanica. Also, prior comment is correct: all subsequent refs should use his chosen public name, with two Ls., esp. true in this article since he was such a priss about his - and everyone else's - public presence! Marquess (talk) 07:01, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

Reference to Wife's Name Incorrect?
Confusion on his wife/wives -- in the article there is this statement: "On August 11, 1919, Winchell married Anita Dickens, one of his onstage partners. The couple separated a few years later, and he moved in with June Magee, who had already given birth to their first child, a daughter named Walda. Winchell and Greene eventually divorced in 1928." But who is "Greene"? I see no mention of a woman named Greene prior to this point. Something must be missing. Or should "Greene" actually be "Dickens," who appears to be his wife at the time the statement refers to? Davidb0229 20:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Famous "winchellism"?
I've been told that Winchell coined the term "to carry the torch", meaning to remain in love with someone over a long period of time during which one's love is not reciprocated. Is that correct? If so, it may be Winchell's biggest contribution to American slang. Tom129.93.17.196 (talk) 02:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the Cassell's Dictionary of Slang by Johnathan Green, "to carry a torch" is a US phrase originating in the 1940s, but the originator is not mentioned. Doesn't mean it wasn't his phrase, then :)81.159.89.82 (talk) 14:06, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Neutral Point of View / Libel
Multiple unsourced or poorly sourced quotations that appear to be libelous and/or not a neutral point of view. Examples:
 * Um... POV maybe, but ‘libel’ applies to living persons. Winchell, long ago dead, offended and even damaged a great many people without sufficient reason. The imbalance is his lasting legacy.

Under "Professional Career"

"During the 1950s Winchell favored Senator Joseph McCarthy, and as McCarthy's Red Scare tactics became more extreme and unbelievable, Winchell lost credibility along with McCarthy."

Unsourced, no detail on how he allegedly supported McCarthy, and no examples or source for how he allegedly lost credibility.

Under "Style"

"A less endearing aspect of Winchell's style were his attempts, especially after World War II, to destroy the careers of personal or political enemies: an example is the feud he had with New York radio host Barry Gray, whom he described as "Borey Pink" and a "disk jerk."[1] When Winchell heard that Marlen Edwin Pew of the trade journal Editor & Publisher had criticized him as a bad influence on the American press, he thereafter referred to him as "Marlen Pee-you."[1]"

Poorly sourced, libelous, and not written in a neutral point of view. It's absurd leap of logic to state he was attempting to destroy careers by calling somebody an insulting name such as Marlen Pee-you.

"Winchell often did not have credible sources for his accusations. He did not have any real incentive to be accurate, because for most of his career his contract with his newspaper and radio employers required them to reimburse him for any damages he had to pay, should he be sued for slander or libel."

Ironically the statement is libelous against Winchell and it's completely unsourced.

"Whenever friends reproached him for betraying confidences, he responded, "I know—- I'm just a son of a bitch."[1]"

The ref source for this loose quote is self described as:

"Two months ago The New Yorker delivered to its 152,777 subscribers the sixth and final installment of the longest "profile" (thumbnail biography) it ever ran. The subject: gun-toting, fox-faced Walter Winchell, No. 1 U. S. transom-peeper. The author: St. Clair McKelway, free-lance newshawk and onetime managing editor of The New Yorker. So sharp was Mc-Kelway's scalpel that Winchell, who had expected a pat on the head, did not realize until the operation was well begun that his throat was being slit. This week the operation appeared in book form for as many of Winchell's some 10,000,000 column readers as might relish dignified, cruel irony of the best New Yorker grade. A few of McKelway's incisions:" http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,802020,00.html

Hardly a neutral, much less reliable source and even if Winchell made the quote, it was likely made in a jocular sense but the ref source being hostile implied it as self-confession admission of wrong doing.

"By the mid-1950s he was widely believed to be arrogant, cruel, and ruthless."

Usourced and patently libelous statement

The entire personal life paragraph is unsourced and mostly irrelevant. The stature of Winchell as a columnist does not justify including information about family members.

Under "Later years"

Winchell's final two years were spent as a recluse at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, California. Larry King, who replaced Winchell at the Miami Herald, observed, "He was so sad. You know what Winchell was doing at the end? Typing out mimeographed sheets with his column, handing them out on the corner. That's how sad he got. When he died, only one person came to his funeral." (Several of Winchell's former co-workers expressed a willingness to go, but were turned back by his daughter Walda.)[7]

Poorly sourced and personal observation.

Under "Death"

"Although his obituary appeared on the front page of The New York Times, his importance had long since ended."

Unsourced personal observation.

Para 6.1: Persons targeted by Winchell

* Tokyo Rose * James Forrestal * Martin Dies * Theodore Bilbo * William Dudley Pelley * Henry Ford * Lucille Ball * Josephine Baker * Jack Paar * The Andrews Sisters

Unsourced and targeted for what? Even if specifics are provided, what is the relevance of the paragraph?

It appears that this article has been laced with a non-netural libelous narrative. If corrections aren't made, immediate removal of said material is in order. Please see the paragraph guidelines relating to biographies of deceased persons at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_personsMarkbyrn (talk) 12:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't know about in the US, but in the UK at least you can't libel the dead, only the living. 81.159.89.82 (talk) 14:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it seems odd that we're being directed to "Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons" considering that Winchell ceased to be a living person quite some time ago. Criticism is fine, but implicit threats, legal or other, are probably not appropriate for the discussion page. I agree that there is a lot wrong with this article, but I don't have much faith that more citation is the remedy. The main problem, it seems to me, is that it just isn't very coherent. TheScotch (talk) 07:54, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Who came first?
This article and the Louella Parsons contradict each other. This article claims she started writing her gossip column after Winchell began his in 1920, but her article states that she began her gossip column in 1914. Both can't be correct... Mark Sublette (talk) 00:15, 26 May 2010 (UTC)Mark SubletteMark Sublette (talk) 00:15, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Walter Winchell's Castration
As part of Winchell's prostate cancer treatment he was castrated. This was a standard treatment in "those days" to decrease the output of male hormones to stop the spread of the disease; it is now done chemically.

Many people who didn't like Winchell got a really good chuckle out of this and he handled it, and many parts of his illness this way, by writing and publishing a letter or series of letters ostensibly to his grandson in his column; they were the pure hokum of someone who was just such a skunk his whole professional life who couldn't deal with any real feelings.

If and when I can "firm this up," I can assure you I'll put it into the article.

Satchmo Sings (talk) 13:49, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Radio program
Winchell began his weekly radio program with the phrase "Good evening, Mr. and Mrs. America and all the ships at sea." Musicwriter (talk) 02:21, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

rabble-rousing against Iva Toguri D'Aquino
From the article Iva Toguri D'Aquino [an American citizen forced to make English-language broadcasts in wartime Japan]:
 * "Upon her request to return to the United States to have her child born on American soil, the influential gossip columnist and radio host Walter Winchell lobbied against her. Her baby was born in Japan, but died shortly after. Following her child's death, D'Aquino was rearrested by the U.S. military authorities and transported to San Francisco, on September 25, 1948, where she was charged by federal prosecutors with the crime of treason for "adhering to, and giving aid and comfort to, the Imperial Government of Japan during World War II"."

His rabble-rousing against a woman already deemed innocent by intelligence agencies led to a show trial and a prosecution for treason. She was later pardoned by Gerald Ford after an investigation by the Chicago Tribune found that both major witnesses had purjored themselves after extensive coaching by the FBI and U.S. occupation police. Another example of substantial harm he did that should be included in this article. Heavenlyblue (talk) 00:42, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


 * Good example, certainly notable -- but unfortunately, poorly sourced in the D'Aquino article. If I can track down adequate sourcing I'll be happy to add it; just started Gabler's biography (so many books, so little time), which may very well have everything necessary.  This whole article is on my rewrite list, but I need to finish the Gabler and Rosedale books first.   DoctorJoeE  review transgressions/ talk to me!  05:03, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

You can add Kirsten Flagstad to the list of people targeted by Winchell. See Wikipedia article. AnnaComnemna (talk) 17:32, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Movie appearances
I have just watched the 1937 movie Wake Up and Live (on youtube) and was surprised to find that this article contains no reference to Winchell's appearance. That's surprising because he was given top billing (credits at the end of the movie instead of the beginning) and he had a major role throughout. Also, while reading about his co-star, Ben Bernie, I noticed that he and Winchell also appeared in Love and Hisses (1937). Again, Winchell's appearance in the movie is not mentioned. Maybe someone can see fit to write up his appearances in these two movies. Akld guy (talk) 11:32, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Added both movie appearances to "In popular culture" section, with apparently no objections. Akld guy (talk) 04:28, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

First syndicated gossip column?
...he finally became the author of the first syndicated gossip column.
 * It's not quite clear if this means the first one dedicated to Broadway. But Louella Parsons was being syndicated by Hearst in California well before this date. Valetude (talk) 00:40, 14 November 2017 (UTC)