Talk:Wandsworth Parks and Events Police/Archive 2

weapons
constables attested under the 1967 Act might be able to carry in parks, but definitely not on the street. home office (or territorial police forces) can carry anywhere. ninety:one 15:45, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

This is just your opinion I have just come from Wandsworth High Street outside Wandsworth Townhall where I have been speaking to to a Met Sergeant and a WPP Sergeant all of us standing together on the street both of them having batons on their belts. I think you are losing credibility and ought to step back as did your dibble and look at what you are trying to tell us. I will transfer this to the discussion page at WPP. Mowthegrass (talk) 19:25, 4 July 2008 (UTC)


 * to start, Ad hominem. Just because they do it does not mean that it is legal. However, we still have an ongoing discussion above and I suggest we wait for that to finish before concentrating on this issue. ninety:one 14:56, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Brilliant Ad hominem to you when will you answer a question? As for commas mowthegrass questioned your credibility and you reply with this! Overlooking your grammar and POV, how about you spell checking and using capitals! Any way over to you what ever discussions I was having with I answer for other readers. Yet again you are unable to answer points except with bland statements, closed questions and above all with no stated cases. (cases that have been before a judiciary and a ruling made). Opinions are varied and none proven so go on counter (any of) the previous rebuttles to your opinions with a balanced answer. You have been discussing points of law with yourself for some considerable time. I am not interested in whether we can or whether we cannot scenario's under this act or not. Boring, go on specials.com there are hundreds of opinions on Local Government Police Services. Chris's last edit on the WPP what is wrong with it? Forget my use of commas etc and state your point?TopCat666 (talk) 17:33, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you TopCat. Ninety:one You are asking Wandsworth directly to ask which powers they think apply. Are you telling us you do not know what they have agreed with the powers that be? Well this is incredible and explains everything. I think my friend TopCat, and he will not mind me saying this has been unusually restrained with you, as I will be. You have now actually revealed that you have taken a personal stance against them being referred to as police constables, and are using legislation that we do not know you understand to cloud that issue. Quite simply my dear chap their own organization quite openly refers to them as police as do plenty of other official bodies. These are citeable references and being awarded the Queens Jubilee medal for being police. I do not think you are in a position to alter that. However I am intrigued and this may not be the right place to ask what will you do with the answer from Wandsworth? Oh yes, sorry TopCat I suppose he will ignore your missive as mine is simpler to answer for him. You should have phoned me later!Mowthegrass (talk) 17:53, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

My grammar is fine, as is my spelling. I must admit I sometimes find both of your comments hard to read due to their grammar. If you want me to delve into every thing you say, I will happily do so.
 * "I am not interested in whether we can or whether we cannot scenario's under this act or not." what does that mean?
 * "Chris's last edit on the WPP what is wrong with it?" - there are still some things there that need clearing up. As I have clearly stated, I have emailed Wandsworth to get their POV, and to see whether they concur with their own report and with what they said in evidence to the HoL. Until I get Wandsworth's reply I will not be proposing any changes.
 * "Are you telling us you do not know what they have agreed with the powers that be?" I know what they have said in their own report, and I know what they have said to the Lords. However, from TopCat's statements, the reality seems to differ from what the council say. That is the reason I am emailing them, to see whether there have been changes since the report and evidence-giving.
 * "and are using legislation that we do not know you understand to cloud that issue" That does that mean?
 * "being awarded the Queens Jubilee medal for being police." The cited ref does not say "police force", but merely "police". Regardless, the intent was to award the medal to those who perform policing duties, which 1967 constables do. I will address the issue of naming when I am ready to propose my changes (upon reciept of an answer from Wandsworth).

Please remember "ad hominem" and desist from making comments about me (and my grammar!). Let us instead concentrate on the article. If there is anything else you think I have "ignored" or not answered, please say so and I will endeavor to keep trying :) [Oh, and btw, you don't need to sign your edit summaries with this ~ ] ninety:one 18:38, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

I am not surprised with your replies again POV and accusations throughout, good day to you! Mowthegrass (talk) 19:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Chris's edit.
Ninety:one, one question: reference your Chris's last edit on the WPP what is wrong with it?" - there are still some things there that need clearing up. As I have clearly stated, I have emailed Wandsworth to get their POV, and to see whether they concur with their own report and with what they said in evidence to the HoL. Until I get Wandsworth's reply I will not be proposing any changes. The question is what do you think on Chris's last edit needs clearing up? As far as I can see nothing in the article contradicts anything we have both said about police powers. I do not think you need to wait to answer this until you get Wandsworth POV TopCat666 (talk) 10:06, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * At the moment the wording on Wandsworth's website is quite ambiguous, so it is not clear what they believe. There's also a lot of general cleaning up to do.ninety:one 15:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Removed duplicate text
I removed verbatim-duplicate text and reworded it to:
 * Although the 1967 Act affords certain police powers within their given jurisdiction, in other situations these police constables simply use the powers to enforce criminal law afforded to 'any person' as a citizen, under section 24 of PACE.


 * Regardless of their status as constables, Wandsworth Parks Police officers are also Council Officers and as such can enforce legislation which only Local Authority Officers are able to enforce for prosecution.

The overall paragraph is still a bit stilted and should be reworded by someone familiar with the department and the relevant statutes. davidwr/ (talk)/(contribs)/(e-mail)  16:04, 17 July 2008 (UTC)


 * i have just got back a freedom of information request from Wandsworth and propose the following:

Legal status
Constables are sworn in under Article 18 of the Ministry of Housing and Local Government Provisional Order Confirmation (Greater London Parks and Open Spaces) Act 1967. This states that: A local authority may procure officers appointed by them for securing the observance of the provisions of all enactments relating to open spaces under their control or management and of bye-laws and regulations made thereunder to be sworn in as a constable for that purpose but any such officer shall not act as a constable unless in uniform or provided with a warrant. This gives the powers of a constable whilst enforcing open space law, including bye-laws and regulations. This includes the power under the Road Traffic Act 1988 to stop a vehicle, which is being driven in breach of the bye-laws. Other powers used by Parks Constables are set out in Sections 24 and 24A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (PACE) as amended by section 110 of the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005.

If they see an offence being committed that is not in breach of the open spaces laws, they may only arrest using 'any person powers' given under Section 24 of PACE. Unlike police constables, they may not arrest if they believe an offence is about to be committed, or if they believe an offence has been committed.

Wandsworth's opinions vary as to search powers enjoyed by constables under Section 1 of PACE. One report says they can search upon arrest, another that they cannot.

Regardless of their status as constables, they are also Council Officers and as such can enforce legislation which only Local Authority Officers are able to enforce for prosecution.

Equipment
Wandsworth Council state that the constables carry extendable batons. They received a legal opinion in November 2001 stating that this was legal. However, a report for Newham Council and a legal opinion for Barking and Dagenham Council contradicts this. This opinion states that there is no "lawful authority" for parks constables to carry batons. There is a legal precedent for carrying batons - namely that the carrier fears imminent attack. However, all of the decided cases state that once the danger has passed the reasonable excuse ceases to exist. It then comes down to whether constables are permanently in fear of imminent attack as a result of the nature of their duties. An opinion (accepted by the Metropolitan Police and Home Office) from Samuel Wiggs QC states that this is not the case. However, this matter has yet to go to court and is unlikely to given the fact that the Metropolitan Police will not take action unless complaints are received from an independent source.

Similarly, Wandsworth Council states that vehicles used by constables are fitted with blue flashing lights. A report for Barking and Dagenham Council says that such lights should only be used off the public highway. This concurs with a report for Newham Council. However, a legal opinion for Barking and Dagenham Council states that they may be used on a highway at the request of the Metropolitan Police but not whilst the vehicle is in motion, due to Health and Safety Executive opinions. Wandsworth Council state that their use is legal under the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989, as amended. These regulations permit blue lights to be fitted to emergency vehicles that are used for police purposes. Their definition of "police purposes" contradicts that of one report, which states that it refers to police forces established under Statute.

Terminology
Technically they are not a "police force", because they are not a body constituted under acts such as the Police Act 1964 or the Police (Scotland) Act 1967. . This view is supported by a legal opinion for Barking and Dagenham Council

Where I have given the ref as "FOI" it indicates a citation from the information Wandsworth sent to me. I am awaiting a response from Wandsworth as to the publication of the information they provided, and will make no changes until I receive such a response. ninety:one 21:22, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Freedom of Information Act
Ninty:one I received your email; you failed to mention the Freedom of Information Act (FOI) anywhere in this email. However before you start with you do not have to mention it, I have authorised the standard reply you received as member of the public requesting such information. I would thank though not refer to the FOI Act without need when your request was so common, and simple to deal with. In addition, I note you have mixed in and taken out parts and refer to old opinions of your own. Did you mean to do this? TopCat666 (talk) 13:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I emailed the council's FOI address directly, having not received any reply from the email I sent to the police address ;) If you have a constructive change to make, please copy what I suggested above and make your changes. ninety:one 15:46, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Have you checked the email address you gave us? Assuming your FOI request is true it must be different name and email address. If you you cannot remember which pseudonym you are on I can remind you of it ;).TopCat666 (talk) 18:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)


 * i sent an email to parkspolice@ or similar - reply came there none. i then emailed foi@ and got a response. ninety:one 18:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
 * i shall presume from the silence that no-one has any further changes to make, and will insert the above text soon. ninety:one 18:16, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Ninetyone
Thank you for your contribution to the Wandsworth Police site. I hope we can agree you are getting a bit excited and overbearing. Please read my edits and think about them. If you think they need editing you have every right to do do as I have. Do not simply undo and claim vandalism my edits are as valid as the next Wikipedian.

Also I am not happy about you complaining to the WPP about me. They cannot stop me even if they wanted to. They they do not know which Police Officer is TopCat666 and will never know. :)TopCat666 (talk) 08:29, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The text I recently inserted has been available on the talk page for at least three weeks, in which time you made no constructive edits to it at all. I have not complained about you to anyone; and I would appreciate it if you withdrew the accusation. I still think you are acting largely in good faith, and that, to an extent, the wool has been pulled over the constables' collective eyes with regards their legal position. ninety:one 14:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * having read your latest changes, this charade has gone on long enough. This will have to go to RfC at the least, because you are repeatedly ignoring talk page discussion in favour of your own unsourced views. ninety:one 14:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Some one autonomous
Please refer it to who you wish, I have answered your questions where you have ignored mine. I will be glad for some independant input again. I do not suppose you have contacted Chris as he was independant (obviously not to your liking) and did a very good job. I hope they have a serious look at your comments to other editors. I have used cited references from an independant source and just because YOU do not agree with them does not make your edits anything more or less valid then any one elses. Your clash of interest remark is again one of your unanswerable conundrums you use so much on the discussion page. TopCat666 (talk) 15:23, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * i have never seen you cite a single reference yourself (please correct me if i'm wrong), and even now you are not making any constructive changes to the text. i will not go around asking individual editors for their opinions, that is selective and counter productive. ninety:one 15:39, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Pure and simple
I cite the references you have used and to the English Dictionary. Other than that I simply give you another view to yours. Always the view actually being applied and practised by Wandsworth. This view is therefore in itself, is a citable reference. You acknowledge under a FOI request, this view has been supplied to you with up to date references and you ignore them. TopCat666 (talk) 16:15, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * that is simply not true: i cited the FOI response seven times. where you have added "the view actually being applied and practised by Wandsworth" you have not followed it with tags to any source, so you have not cited. additionally, you have never cited the "English Dictionary"... ninety:one 16:47, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Onesided blog
See 3rd July this page for Dictionary References. I need not add links to documents you have already put links to. Citing does not have to be supported by links to documents. We both have copies of Wandsworth Council's policies, why don't you stick them on? I have them here so no alteration, omissions etc. Not that I think you would. ; ) You are making the mistake of trying to turn the article into a onesided blog, instead of a simple site where Wikipedians can view information on the oldest surviving Council run Police Service. Do you really think your efforts to try and convince me to hang up my badge and not deal with crime where ever it occurs will be ignored? TopCat666 (talk) 17:42, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * yes you do need to add links to documents, that is what citing sources means. you say: "We both have copies of Wandsworth Council's policies, why don't you stick them on?" - what does that mean? your inference that i wish you to "hang up [your] badge and not deal with crime" is your perspective on events. not once have i said anything against either you or the other constables. i have only expressed support for the constables (further up the page) but wikipedia has to reflect the legal truth of the situation, supported as it is by numerous sources.


 * to address what seems to be one of your main concerns - any report or opinion on constables attested under the 1967 Act is as relevant to WPP as it is to any other london parks constabulary. That you are employed by Wandsworth LBC is inconsequential when it comes to the legal positions of the constables. every single constable attested under the 1967 Act is equal, regardless of which council employs them. ninety:one 18:19, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

At last you acknowledge these reports and opinions are inconsequential when it comes to the legal positions of Police Constables sworn in under the 1967 Act. I am going to leave it there you have proved my point. There is no legal truth in what you state, I merely report what the Wandsworth Police do not what you think they should do and my edits reflect this. Ta TopCat666 (talk) 18:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I actually can't tell if the first two sentences of that are a joke... ninety:one 20:20, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't you?TopCat666 (talk) 21:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Lead
I've flagged two versions of this as unclear now, simply because I can't, as a reader unfamiliar with the subject and who hasn't read the talk page in detail, understand what they're getting at. The current version reads:-


 * Wandsworth Council is autonomous and independent of other councils and their opinions. Under references document one, produced by Wandsworth Council is their official view and supersedes private opinions on how others run their own Police Services and what powers they delegate to them

What does it mean to be independent of a council's "opinion"? What is their "official view", and what is it on, and whose "private opinions" does it supercede? Whose powers are being delegated to whom? I'm sure there's a point being made in here somewhere, but it's unreadable with the current wording. --McGeddon (talk) 13:33, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * That is what Topcat puts in to try and convince people that Wandsworth is somehow different, even though all parks constables are exactly the same in terms of powers etc. ninety:one 16:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

All The Police Offices sworn in under the 1967 Act have the same powers. Therefore opinions in the numerous reports posted may or may not be valid, as only a court will decide whether a power used is lawfully allowed. This goes for every Police Officer in England & Wales. Wandsworth's view on their Police is clearly defined as is the powers they are using. 91 personal view is interesting, but to insist it is correct, well I need not comment other then to say it appears folly! The best course is to simplify the article and remove references to their Stop & Search Powers etc and all reports on these Police services. If anyone is interested in the 'powers' they can find plenty elsewhere on the web. TopCat666 (talk) 16:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * my suggested text says 'according to', 'the report states', 'according to the report'. never, afaik, have i written "xyz is illegal" and supported it with a reference from a report. anyway, they won't find anything elsewhere, so i propose moving the powers section to either a) an article about the Act, b) an article called Parks police in the United Kingdom or c) Law enforcement in the United Kingdom. Personally, I favour b. Option a would be confusing, and option c would add too much text to the current article. ninety:one 16:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * This talk section is just about your edit to the lead, it doesn't matter what you and another user think of one another. Please try to reword it giving appropriate context, or move it into the body of the article if it requires excessive explanation. --McGeddon (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
 * i was explaining why the second para exists. if we move the status section out of the article, then the para can go. ninety:one 19:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

McGeddon: Thank you for your input, I disagree with what you are saying. You are implying only 91 and I can understand the article as it stands. This is of course untrue, you may not and do not intend to look into our discussions on the article and refer to personalities. Fine that is your choice, if I was to ask the editors of the Quantum Physics article to explain it to me as I am not interested enough to read it. I probably would not get as a polite answer you have! TopCat666 (talk) 10:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not that your paragraph deals with complex issues I can't understand, it's that the grammar is incoherent and I can't work out what it's trying to say. What does "Under references document one, produced by Wandsworth Council is their official view" mean? Is there a piece of paper called "Under References Document One" which is the council's "official view"? Or have you accidentally missed a word out somewhere? I've no objection to the content at this stage, only the poor quality of the writing. --McGeddon (talk) 10:24, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

91: I disagree with you proposed options as they all will spill back into the WPP article and throw legal doubts on the Powers Wandsworth Police Officers enjoy. We had a cyclist prosecuted, he brought in a cycle map printed off of a website as defence. Only he knows if he believed it allowed him to cycle on the footpath. He was found guilty and therefore broke the bye-law. My point is does the article help or hinder? The courts decide on the powers Police Officers use not lawyers or laymen. We arrest a substantial amount of people each year, as they refuse to comply with Sec24 PACE, and because they heard somewhere or another we have no powers of arrest. Now this is fantastic for our arrest figures, but it calls into question the motives of the persons who promulgate these assumptions. I only placed edits stating what powers we use or disputing the assumptions of others on our powers. You ran away trying to obtain evidence you are right and placed it on the article, thank you. I merely state the facts and will continue to do so. People can add as many templates as they like to the article I agree with them. I want the reader to know there is a counter argument on Wiki, so if I ever encounter someone quoting it to me I can point it out. So if you think I am being 'difficult' so be it. TopCat666 (talk) 10:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Synthesis
I've been bold and cut back a lot of the "equipment" section, most of which appears to be WP:SYNTHESIS: "Synthesizing material occurs when an editor comes to a conclusion by putting together different sources. If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion, or if the sources cited are not directly related to the subject of the article, then the editor is engaged in original research."

As with the "Smith and Jones" example in WP:SYNTHESIS, we should provide a source that specifically comments on the contradiction between Wandsworth Council's legal opinion and those of other councils - we shouldn't just quote the original sources next to each other and point out observed contradictions ourselves. --McGeddon (talk) 16:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * all of the information was in the sources. i knew nothing about the legal situation until i read them, and i have merely re-worded them. i object to your claim that what i wrote was synthesis or original research. Topcat, my proposal would mean all there would be in this article is a link to Parks police in the United Kingdom (or whatever) and no discussion at all of powers on this page. Then, we would be able to show the relevance of all the council reports. You still don't seem to be following here though: the reports have not been used to back up "xyz is illegal". That would be totally wrong. Instead, they are used to demonstrate the differing points of view; ie "one report says xyz is illegal, but another one says it is not". Your point about the cyclist: if he had read this article then he would know he could have been arrested for breach of a bylaw ;) ninety:one 19:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I know the information was in the sources; the problem is combining these sources when some of them don't explicitly refer to the subject of the article. Please read WP:SYNTHESIS. --McGeddon (talk) 20:03, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "They are however a Police Service by virtue they hold a warrant and may arrest for bye-law offences and other enactments relating to open spaces." - this has to go; it is completely unsourced and inaccurate. ninety:one 19:57, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

McGeddon: I understand about your point about synthesis in the article and agree entirely. The reader of the article can come to the discussion page and find the plenty fors and and againsts. As for the new edit to terminolgy, to avoid synthesis on the article I placed what I believed 91 would agree with. On the front of the article in large print by 91 is the wording of the 1967 Housing Act. In it is stated the 'Constable shall not act as a Constable unless in uniform or provided with a warrant'. All the sworn in Police Constables which include part time (our version of the Special Constabulary, but get paid hourly), work in plain clothes sometimes and are all issued with a joint council identity and warrant card. The Wandsworth Parks Police Service does not need references put on to the article viz. No one disputes they exist and secondly they provide a service which is policing the parks and open spaces amongst their other duties. So going along with your synthesis idea, either my edit should stay, or the entire section 'Terminology' is removed. I think the latter, there are references to contradict which is why we have the word technically in it. I think it is an unecessary section on this type of article and I reserve my right to edit/add to it. The section 2.4 of the following doc is one that has not been posted here yet so I will give you it. http://www.spelthorne.gov.uk/8apr03report5.doc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TopCat666 (talk • contribs) 07:08, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * McGeddon, the point is that any report referring to parks constables is relevant because they are all the same. regardless of which employer (council) they are prepared for, the reports are actually about the constables themselves and are therefore citable - their use is not synthesis. ok, i think i'm following now. you see, the way that it's worded is confusing; the sources do refer to the subject of the article, but they do not dissucss the discrepencies. Topcat, just because you have a warrant does not mean you are in a police service or force. police service/force means a force established by statute as a legal body. the constables employed by wandsworth are each separate and the chief officer is not accountable for them in the same manner as the CC of a territorial police force is. anyway, are we both in agreement about removing the whole of "Legal status"? ninety:one 17:36, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

No I am not in agreement, you were happy for the legal status to remain. Please explain your u-turn? and then I can comment. TopCat666 (talk) 20:42, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
 * oh dear. "i propose moving the powers section to either a) an article about the Act, b) an article called Parks police in the United Kingdom or c) Law enforcement in the United Kingdom. Personally, I favour b" and "my proposal would mean all there would be in this article is a link to Parks police in the United Kingdom (or whatever) and no discussion at all of powers on this page". look, because you have seem to have a problem with accepting that the reports apply to all the constables, the best way to solve the problem is to remove it. the information has to go somewhere, and by putting it all together we can link the other parks police articles to it as well. ninety:one 20:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no problems only solutions, you must realise by now you cannot goad me. I didn't think you would admit you have no argument. Play on, I have all the time in the world, turn and turn again. The article will never be to your liking. There must be another template or plea you can put out for help. Meanwhile Wandsworth Council's Police Service will continue to be part of the United Kingdom's policing history and future. I wish you luck on your search to convince the readers that your view has any value. I however continue to rely on facts and sound common sense rebuttals to your personal opinions. TopCat666 (talk) 21:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

McGeddon, the sentence 'As each London council is independent, the powers given to Wandsworth Parks Police differ from those of other areas.' is simply untrue. All powers are given by one act (the 1967 Act) which applies to every single London Borough Council. ninety:one 21:41, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

McGeddon, you are 100% right. 91 has been complaining that Wandsworth Council, devolve more powers from the 1967 Act, to their Police Officers then he personally would like. You have clarified that simply and 91 is dodging the point. 91's irrelevent reference about the 1967 Act, is simply untrue. The powers given by the 1967 Act are not being disputed, therefore your edit remains true. TopCat666 (talk) 23:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I can only strive so long before I just have to give up. If you honestly think that Wandsworth can 'devolve' powers to constables then I would hate to be a citizen of Wandsworth. Unlike PCSOs, there is no optional list of powers a CC can give. ninety:one 13:34, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Devolve verb [T] to (cause power or responsibility to) be given to other people:

Perfectly acceptable and apt, I read it as meaning existing Powers under the act are given to the Wandsworth Police whilst other Councils hold their powers back. TopCat666 (talk) 16:23, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
 * if you're going to use that definition, the power is 'devolved' when the constable is sworn in. Wandsworth do not give them any powers - or if they do please point me to the act which says that... Other councils may not require their constables to do certain things, but the constables still have the power to do it. ninety:one 16:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming what I said, although for some reason you then lose the point and go off at a tangent! I have nothing to comment on your statement, as it is a closed question. So until the next time. TopCat666 (talk) 18:11, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Titles
On the subject of the word used to describe the council officers. The law describes them as 'officers' and 'constables'. Legal opinions say they should not be called 'police constables'. I contest the use of the phrase 'Police Constables'. surely, then, the compromise (which is what we strive to attain here on Wikipedia) is to call them exactly what they are attested as; 'constables'. if the legal status is clearly set out there will be no room for confusion. ninety:one 21:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Where is the evidence to justify your statement? Show legal opinion and not the Laymans reports on the other London Council's Police Services. For your information legal opinion can only be justified by going through court. This is called a stated case or legal opinion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_opinion. This will also need to be directed at Wandsworth's Police Constables in particular. Not your's and other peoples POV's. Thanks TopCat666 (talk) 23:16, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I have looked at the various sources relied upon by both sides of the argument. Legislation appears to support the supposition that 'police constable' is a term to be used only by constables of police forces i.e. Home Office forces and specialist police forces such as BTP and MOD police. WPP is not legally a police force and should not call themselves police constables but 'constables' maybe 'parks constables'. There seems to be a belief held by some contributers that just because you are 'constables' you are therefore 'police constables'. Not so. The term constable is an ancient term which can be used for various offices such as High Constable of a county or a water constable etc etc. 'Police Constable' is a legally defined term i.e. a constable of a police force, who has all the police powers of a police constable in his defined jurisdiction. WPP is not legally a police force and its constables do not have full police powers to enforce criminal law - as opposed to police constables of police forces in their jurisdiction (which is different when looking at Home Office or specialist police forces).

From a neutral point of view, I am staggered that WPP is using stop search (on what legal basis do they use this - for bye laws!?!). How have they been permitted to use blue lights, carry offensive weapons such as batons and infer they are police officers to the unsuspecting public. At best this is a very grey area. At worst it is down right illegal. Any directions to legislation that allays my concerns from Topcat would be appreciated. (And as an aside - the legisaltion is the same for all the London councils. Wandsworth can't abartarilly decide to invent its own powers and legal precedent - I really am shocked at some of the answers (or non answers) given by what I presume are members of the WPP on this page.) TOA63 (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion, try not be so rude and ignorant we are having discussions on this page. Do not try and dictate, but deliberate. Oh and if the Wandsworth Police's stop & search powers stagger you, what can one say? TopCat666 (talk) 21:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * TOA63, feel my pain :p. you'll have to back up everything with a source though - even then you stand a good chance of being ignored. at the rate we're going, it's going to have to go to WP:COI/N. (to answer your last point, Topcat is a relatively senior member of the WPP, given he authorises FOI releases).

Topcat, please assume good faith. Additionally. In the United Kingdom and other common law countries, a legal opinion normally refers to written legal advice on a point of law issued by either a barrister (often referred to as "counsel's opinion") or occasionally a senior government law officer, such as the Attorney General. The latter form of opinion is sometimes made available to the public either because of public pressure (see for example Lord Goldsmith's opinion on the legality of the invasion of Iraq), or because a general clarification of the law is called for (see for example, the Yorke-Talbot slavery opinion).
 * there is no such thing as a 'Police Service', especially not with initial caps.
 * I asm astounded at you statement about 'legal opinion' - do i have to quote the article?
 * I don't know how many times I have been down this route: every single (1967) constable is the same, regardless of their employer. A report about the constables employed by one council applies to them all equally. ninety:one 21:12, 26 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Can we please stop returning to complete red herrings such as "there is no such thing as a Police Service". Try looking up Metropolitan Police Service, to see why such a statement is nonsense; however, quite apart from that, we all know that 'Police Service' is a currently preferred politically correct term, used throughout government and policing circles, to avoid the currently politically-incorrect word "force". It has nothing to do with subjects under discussion here. With respect, comments like that above are both incorrect and irrelevant.


 * I also repeat my earlier observation that regardless of anyone's POV, it is clear (from their official website, and reports of their Chief Officer) that WPP's constables are referred to as "Police Constables" by their own organisation, and Wikipedia should report that fact. An encyclopedia exists to report facts, not to forward opinions.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  22:31, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * that's funny, the FOI response calls them 'Parks Constables', 'Parks Police Constables' and 'Constables'; whilst this calls them 'Parks Police Constables' or 'Parks Police Constables'. The website calls them 'Parks Police Officers'. Never 'Police Constables'. ninety:one 22:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Given the fact that you can't see how Metropolitan Police Service is a Police Service, it is not altogether surprising that you can't see how a Parks Police Constable is a Police Constable. At the very least, however, this is a bizarre understanding of English language, grammar, and syntax. I stress that I am NOT expressing a point of view on the correctness or otherwise of organisations or individuals using particular titles, merely the observable facts of what organisations and individuals are actually calling themselves, and what they are being called by others.  Timothy Titus Talk To TT  07:57, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

91 why worry how Wandsworth Council refer their Wandsworth Parks Police Officers. These facts hold under Wiki rules regardless of personal objections and suppositions. Thanks 212.85.28.67 (talk) 16:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The fact is that the title 'Police Constable' makes it look like they have full police powers, which they do not. Due to contrasting opinions and general confusion, we have to fall back upon legal definitions. A Parks Police Constable is not a Police Constable, you can't simply remove 'Parks' from the front of the title! With reference to your last point, the organisation does not call them 'Police Constables'. 'Parks Constable' or 'Parks Police Constable' are perfectly acceptable terms, but I understand Topcat is against their usage. Oh, and the Met may call themselves a police service but their article refers to them by their actual name, a 'police force'. ninety:one 20:12, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * If the Wandsworth Council anon IP would like to try and make their comment a little more understandable, I might be able to respond. ninety:one 20:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

There you go again 91 worrying unecessary. They are sworn in Police Constables for the purpose of enforcing open space laws. Why worry what other people will think, you are getting very uptight about something you have no control of. I mean how many residents in London do think or care what titles are used? I thought if anything you would be as or more uptight about them having a Chief Officer. Do not worry about the Wandsworth Police Officers they are doing a fine job and know what powers i.e. stop & search that are available to them. TopCat666 (talk) 20:33, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Should we call them 'Police Constables' even though their own employer does not refer to them as such? ninety:one 20:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Other duties
Thanks 91 have updated your edit to Aug 08, money collections from the APC'S (Automated Public Conviences), was taken over by our Police Support Officers some years ago. Then last month they were handed over to Decaux, the company who has responsibility for them. I have changed the non part to other duties as we are Police Officers when we serve Arrest Warrants made out by the Courts and of course we are Poilcing events in Battersea Park and on Tooting Common etc.

You may find it worthwhile to check your facts a bit more thoroughly, to save I no doubt you will get, a bit humpty when you read this update. TopCat666 (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * your recent edits, whilst undoubtedly correct, are unsourced. i based my edit of your own FOI response. why are you providing responses if you know they are incorrect? additionally, 'serving legal documentation' does not mean enforcing arrest warrants, it means civil matters like serving writs. i really hope you are not enforcing warrants on the streets. you also appear to have missed my post above. ninety:one 17:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

91:Unfortunately I have no say in documents produced by others, but I do agree you should not be be provided with out of date or incorrect information. Thanks for taking it so well, you may want to address that question to the other Council's as well! Obviously you are not in the 'legal trade' or you would be aware that a Judge can name individuals on an Arrest Warrant. Which can includes foreigners i.e. European and American law enforcement officials, you do not need to be a Police Officer. As for unsourced information if everything on Wiki had to be proved, by citing a references to this that and the other. We would have half the articles we have now. As for missing your point about referring to the WPP as Police Officers, is a mute point. We are referred to in writing with all sorts of names. Some in old Anglo-Saxon if you get my drift. Back to the 'Other duties' edit, I expect it to be removed by someone sooner or later, as it is encyclopedic. I could add another twenty jobs to it. We would then get into one of those synthesis wrangles again. TopCat666 (talk) 19:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I didn't say it would be illegal for you to enforce the warrant, but I'm not sure you'd remember to drop off your batons on your way out of the park ;) If you could edit the website to include all your jobs, then you could add them to this page. Otherwise, we can't add anymore. Out of interest, do parks constables get named on arrest warrants? 'Officer' or 'constable' are acceptable titles - anything else gives the impression that they are fully empowered police constables, and I'm sure you wouldn't want us giving that impression ;). ninety:one 19:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

91:I did not say you said it was illegal I was just showing my surprise how niave you are on points of law and procedures. Any way I am glad you have added some humour, I actually always carry my baton, speed cuffs and wear my ballistic vest. When I am on uniformed duty and whether or not I am in a park, waiting to give evidence at court or reporting an untaxed motorvehicle on a public road. I am not bothered what people think. I deal with people like yourself all the time, and yes we do have a laugh at some of the things you come out with. Coming back to Arrest Warrants, I must confess I have not personally been involved executing a Arrest Warrant for over ten years now. If my memory serves me well, I believe it had all members of the Wandsworth Parks Police. This would have allowed our PPSO's, (though we did not have them then) to arrest as well. Oh yes it did also mention the local police on it. TopCat666 (talk) 20:23, 28 August 2008 (UTC) why are you reporting untaxed vehicles? describing me as 'niave', whilst you undoubtedly mean 'naive', could be construed by a more sensitive person as a personal attack and is not appreciated. you really can not carry batons on the streets; you are a constable for the purposes of by-law enforcement in parks and parks only. anyway, do you agree to usage of the words 'officer' or 'constable'?ninety:one 13:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

91: There is no personal attack on you I merely meant you were ignorant of the facts and I had not realised you are acting on what you read and personal opinion. I do not expect to have to educate you on the law, and common sense tells me that you will not except it any way. I do not have to agree or disagree with you. The article must reflect fairly on the WPP, that is all I am interested in and you?. TopCat666 (talk) 13:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * to the contrary: if i had stated 'it is illegal for you to enforce arrest warrants on the street' then i would have been 'ignorant of the facts'. i did not state that. again, do you agree to usage of the words 'officer' and/or 'constable'?

91:I do not understand what the question is. TopCat666 (talk) 16:04, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * in the article, using 'Police Constable' to describe the constables is misleading because it implies that they have full police powers. therefore, do you agree that we should use 'constable' (or 'officer') to refer to them (as is done in many other UK law enforcement articles) ? ninety:one 18:36, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

No I do not agree. The Wiki rules are clear enough, it is not how you or I wish to describe Wandsworth Police Officers. I know your POV differs from the norm, but you are not expected to to think for others. You have not convinced me you are not more then a Bot with your edits. Please start thinking outside the box and get back to me, with an original thought. Thanks as always TopCat666 (talk) 21:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

This may help: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1050081/The-badged-brigade-wardens-police-powers-patrol-streets-dogs.html Wandsworth Police Officer (talk) 09:53, 30 August 2008 (UTC) Wandsworth Police Officer, those are called 'Accredited Persons' and come under Community Safety Accreditation Schemes - are Wandsworth's constables accredited in this manner? Topcat, do you agree that 'Police Constable' is misleading? ninety:one 13:10, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course not, we are Police Officers! You seem to have trouble grasping this. Just because you are confused do not try and convince other they maybe. You are treating readers of Wiki with contempt by pushing your POV. Maybe you can reveal why you have a problem with the Wandsworth Police. Also we have Police Powers already why an earth would we need accreditation for something we already have? TopCat666 (talk) 13:36, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * that was exactly my point, that the constables wouldn't need to be accredited. i assumed that the link had some relvency as it had been posted by someone with that name. you assume i have 'a problem' with the police - based on, erm, nothing. you constantly accuse me, in a style no doubt imitating other users, of 'POV pushing'. please, tell me what my point of view is and see if you can back your claims up. your intransigence over the title has now gone on for 2 months (with myself, but much longer with other editors). if you continue in this unconstructive manner, the article will have to go to WP:COI/N. Reports about constables attested under the 1967 act state that 'Police Constable' is incorrect. it implies you have full police powers, which you do not. 'constable' is an accpetable title; all other UK policing articles use this. ninety:one 19:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Topcat, A couple of issues (at least) with your last post.

1. Point me to ANY legislation that makes you police officers. The 1967 Act allows London councils to appoint constables to enforce bye laws in parks and open spaces of their boroughs ONLY. There is no mention of police or any intention of setting up police forces. Police officers, whether they be Home Office police forces or the specialist forces (BTP, MOD police etc) are all members of police forces (as defined in the pertinant legislation) and as such are appointed as police constables. Your organisation is not legally a 'police force' which is a defined legal entity. So therefore you are not police constables ergo not police officers. Please show me any legislation which makes you police officers.

(And by the by, just because the MPS calls itself a 'service' these days is immaterial. Legally it is a police force.)

2. You ONLY have 'police' powers in relation to enforcing parks bye laws. Any other enforcement action you take is based on 'any person' powers commonly known as citizens arrest. (You may have certain council officer powers but that does not make you police officers either). There are several persons/organisations in the country that have 'police' powers for example: -VOSA operatives have the 'police' power to stop vehicles and examine them (That does not make them police officers and one has ever suggested they were)

- Border and Immigration Agency Officers have 'police' powers to arrest and search and a plethora of other powers (This does not make them police officers and no one has suggested they were) - Borough Council Environmental Health Officers have certain powers in relation to noise and environmental crime (This does not make them police officers nor has anyone ever suggested that they were) - SOCA officers can be designated the powers of a police officer or customs officer or immigration officer or a combination of these various powers in their fight against serious and organised crime. (They are not police officers however and no-one has ever suggested that they are) I could go on. The list of law enforcement agencies with various powers is massive but none of them are or try to call themselves police officers. Constables of London Borough Parks Constabularies merely have 'police' powers to enforce bye laws in the parks only. You and by the look of it WPP, seem to make a massive jump from that legally defined position into purporting to be police officers. If your argument held up to any sort of scrutiny surely SOCA, Immigration or Customs Officers could all argue that they are police officers as they have far more powers than a WWP parks constable, yet they never try to portray themselves as police officers, as you are doing.

Reading the inputs in the archives on this page it is apparent that various contributors have cited legislation, council reports, even Wandsworths own reports to support the position that the article should not use terms as 'police constable' or 'police officer' for very valid grounds. As far as I can tell no-one has provided any cited report or legislation which provides any legal basis for WPP to call themselves police officers or police constables. Yes the WPP may say it, but it doesn't mean that they are right "because they say so". If it was so clear cut and obvious why am I and it looks like several other editors finding some issues with article after looking at the relevant law and policy.

Topcat can I put some questions to you if I may:

1. Other than the 1967 Act (which only relates to constables being appointed to enforce bye laws in the parks etc) can you point me to any other legislation that supports your position that you are police officers? 2. Do you accept the clearly defined legislation which outlines what a police force is? And therefore accept that WPP is not legally a police force? 3. If WPP is not a legally defined police force how do you obtain the traffic exemptions regarding blue lights, speed  etc? 4. How does WPP (if it is accepted that you are not a police force) get its authority to carry offensive weapons (batons)      which members of police forces are entitled? 5. How can you hold a position (with regards to stop search and criminal law enforcement) that appears to go against   the cited reports regarding WPP from Wandsworth Borough Council itself (and the evidence provided at the Lords  Committee)? 6. I note you do not carry CS due to legal issues. Do you accept that all police officers can carry CS or its equivalent     but you are prevented from doing so because you are not police officers? 7. And finally (for now) do you accept a basic tenant of law. You are made constables under the same Act that all the        other London boroughs, who have such constabularies, are established. As such, any legal viewpoint on this Act from any of the other boroughs therefore has a bearing on WPP as it relates to the same law. Do you accept this?

And finally, I have found in reading these pages that the contributors who questioned your status have hardly been POV as you suggest. Many have intelligently cited evidance or reports and legislation clearly stating where there standpoint comes from. If you are so sure please quote the law, reports or legal opinion that supports and rebutts the issues raised by myslef and others. And, please do keep up the good work in the parks of Wandsworth - no-one I can see has personally attacked the constables or your efforts enforcing the bye laws merely the legal situation. TOA63 (talk) 19:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

TOA63: Thanks for your post. The rules for Wiki articles are not as simple as having to justify an article through references to laws.

1. You identify the sections in the Acts you quote to evidence your post. We/I do not have to justify we are Police Officers for the article.

2. Blandly quoting Acts is just not good enough and stating they apply to the Council's Police Service.

3. Like 91 you are missing the point, you quite rightly point out we are Police Officers when we are enforcing Bye-Laws and other enactments relating to openspace law. Then attempt to muddle the issue by unnecessary references to where we are outside our jurisdiction.

4. We have stop & search, this power is only available to us Police Officers and some others.

5. Viewpoints can only be personal opinion unless you can prove;

A. It has been confirmed in a court of law (UK or EU). B. Wiki rule:Cited references that are not more then a point of view. C. There is an Act that prohibits something in particular, that actually applies to the article*


 * Both the Housing Act 1967 & the Police Act 1967 allows you to do something).

and therefore some viewpoints will be POV.

6. Reading topcats replies on this discussion page, they are merely pointing out POV's, stating facts and telling the reader what the Wandsworth Police Officers actually do. Not what others think they should/are allowed to do.

7. Wandsworth Council has a legally set up Police Service running since around 1984, so I appreciate some may not like this, but this is life.

8. Wiki is a place for people to find articles of interest, it is not for people to promote their own personal issues.

9. I note all the different articles on Police Services or Forces, Para-militaries etc. Do not concern themselves about where their jurisdiction lie, Police Powers or the equipment they carry. I do not think this identifies who is a Police Officer.

10. There is no legal situation and there has never been one. Wandsworth Parks Police Service sits comfortably within the Borough's crime reduction initiatives. We do not compare ourselves to any other Police Force or Service, either in the UK or outside and see no reason to.

So there we have it in no particular order, thank you for your pledge of support on enforcing openspace law. I can assure you we will continue to act lawfully when we arrest for statute law whether we are in a park or outside it. I wish you all every luck in your chosen profession. Wandsworth Police Officer (talk) 09:48, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

arbitary break
yet one of you, at least, illegally carries an offensive weapon on the streets. whilst we could talk about the parks police all day, we're trying to build consensus on the article. from above: reports about constables attested under the 1967 act state that 'Police Constable' is incorrect. it implies you have full police powers, which you do not. 'constable' is an acceptable title. do either of you have any constructive feedback to this? ninety:one 13:05, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Ignorance is not a crime you are free to go.
91:Do not accuse people of breaking the law. You are not qualified and have no evidence in law. Surprise me and back anything up with evidence. The 1967 Acts (the two of them) do not state anything about the Wandsworth Police Officers. You know this, so why say it? I understand your ignorance and your reliance on your own and others opinion. I will let it go, but cannot speak for others. I continue to wait for you to produce something you can sustantiate. I will not be holding my breath on that one! TopCat666 (talk) 16:26, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You are a constable for the purpose of enforcing open space bylaws. Only a constable may carry an offensive weapon. If you are not enforcing open space bylaws, you are not a constable. If you are not enforcing open space bylaws then you cannot, therefore, carry an offensive weapon.


 * I have had enough of this charade. See Conflict of interest/Noticeboard. ninety:one 18:40, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Ninety:one,

I can see what you are saying and it makes perfect sense to me, backed by citable and verifiable law and reports.

Topcat,

If what ‘Wandsworth Police Officer’ is saying is true i.e. making police power arrests outside the parks for statute law offences then you are indeed breaking the law. You have no police powers in relation to criminal law (i.e. not parks bye laws and enactments) and definitely not outside the parks. The law is very specific on this point. The evidence, which has been quoted ad infinitum is all found above, but the key bit is the Ministry of Housing and Local Government Provisional Order Confirmation (Greater London Parks and Open Spaces) Act 1967 (I’ve called the “1967 Housing etc Act” for brevity from now on.) which is where you get your powers from and are established as constables. You have not provided any evidence throughout which shows why you consider yourselves police constables or police officers. The 1967 Housing etc Act just gives you powers to enforce parks bye-laws and enactments in the parks and open spaces of the borough.

Your next bit about the two 1967 Acts is bizarre. Of course the 1967 Housing etc Act does not name WPP but that is the Act that you are established under and it is where your authority and limited powers stems from. And this does not make you police officers or police constables. For your information the Police Act 1967 has been superseded by the Police Act 1996.

You have been given Acts of Parliament and various reports from various sources (even from Wandsworth Council itself!) supporting the position that you are not police officers or police constables. It is not good enough to say we are what we are so we are right. Prove it, with any legislation, report, policy, legal opionion….I mean anything at all. If it is that black and white then you should be able to readily point to the relevant law or report.

Enough is enough. I’m tempted to think that you know you are out on a limb legally and that is why you smoke screen any request for direct evidence of your status. If we are ignorant of the facts please enlighten us…but with citable facts not your opinion or your own take on the legislation. The article presently does not reflect current law.

Wandsworth Police Officer,

I’ll keep it in the points you numbered in your reply above to make this easier to follow the discussion...

1.I disagree with you. The article, at present, states you are police officers and police constables. My viewpoint, and it would appear other editors also, is that you are not legally either a police officer or police constable so the article is wrong. You do not have to justify yourself to me, but you certainly do to the law and as a result the truthfulness of the article. I’ll repeat, the 1967 Housing etc Act allows borough council to establish constables to enforce bye laws in parks and open spaces only. It does not make you police officers. It does not give you all the powers and privilages of a police constable. How do you square that circle? (I listed the other organisations because like you, officers of those various organisation have various executive or certain ‘police’ powers (some of them have far more powers than you) but unlike you, they do not then think they are police officers – what makes you different? Certainly I can find no law to support your viewpoint.)

2.I have not blandly quoted Acts! I’m afraid your missing the point – legal powers of the police and criminal justice system is based in law. So myself and other editors have been reading and quoting the law as it would appear to be at odds with your assertions. Not one quote has been fired back which supports your views. It has been pointed out before but a police force is a legally defined entity under the Police Act 1996 and other specific Acts. You cannot set up a police force without acts of parliament for all sorts of civil rights and legal reasons. So the Police Act 1996 sets up the 43 Home Office Forces, the Ministry of Defence Police Act 1987 sets up the MOD police and the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 is the latest act in relation to BTP. These acts set out the police force areas and the jurisdictions of the members of these various forces who are all police constables. WPP does not come under the remit of any of these police acts. The ONLY act in relation to WPP is the 1967 Housing etc Act, which does not in any way give authority for Wandsworth Council to set up a police force or give you the status of police officer or police constable. You have limited ‘police’ powers to enforce bye-laws only in the parks and open and spaces. It does not give you all the powers and privileges of a police constable. A traffic warden has limited ‘police’ powers to enforce traffic law and an Immigration officer has limited ‘police’ powers to arrest but that does not make either police officers. So what’s your legal basis for your position in the article?

3.Er, no, I have never said you are police officers at any time. My position is you are not police constables and not police officers. When you are enforcing bye-laws and other enactments relating to the parks and open spaces you are constables of a parks constabulary as per the 1967 Housing etc Act which establishes you. This Act gives you certain powers but does not make you police constables or police officers. No one I can see has tried to muddle the issue - it appears to me, and others, that it is very plain and simple if you read the 1967 Housing etc Act.

4.Stop search is only available to police constables, you are not police constables. My take on the law as read is that you are on very sticky ground conducting stop searches in relation to bye laws. Parliament gave police constables this power to prevent and detect crime. I cannot imagine they legislated so that people would be stop searched in relation to bye laws (remember you have no police powers in relation to crime as per the 1967 Housing etc Act). It would appear that until fairly recently WPP understood that they did not have stop search powers as per Wandsworth Councils own reports and the request for those powers at the above cited Lords committee a few years ago. What has changed since then? Primary law has not changed in relation to stop search so on what basis do you think you now have powers of stop search?

5.There are no viewpoints here but cited valid arguments. Myself (and others) have quoted various Acts of Law and the 1967 Housing etc Act to frame our viewpoint. In order for you to have police powers, such as arrest or search you must have backing in law otherwise it is illegal and can amount to assault or unlawful imprisonment. Police constables are given extraordinary powers which are all based in the various police acts mentioned above so that anyone can read them and see what police officers can and cannot do – that’s all part of living in a free country. The 1967 Housing etc Act that establishes you does not make you police constables nor allow borough councils to establish police forces; it merely gives you powers in relation to parks and open space bye laws and enactments. It is not a viewpoint its in the law as it stands. However if I and the other editors have missed some legislation to support your position please tell all. (For information the Police Act 1967 you mention is no longer in force and has been superseded by the Police Act 1996)

6.I have to disagree with your assessment of Topcat’s replies. I note on several occasions editors have asked Topcat for cited law or policy that supports his assertions. Theses have yet to appear. He may be pointing out what WPP officers actually do but there is the rub. My reading of the law, and cited evidence on these very pages would suggest to me that WPP is probably acting on very thin ice legally and is on shaky ground. But, you may suggest in response, we have always done it, so we must be right. I would counter that by saying that if someone was to actually challenge the issues following an arrest or stop search it would come to the surface and WPP would be found to be acting outside there defined powers in certain circumstances. For example it would appear the Mets position on the WPP carrying batons is that it is illegal as they are not police constables but will not take action due to ‘organisational sovereignty’ and will await a specific complaint by a member of the public. (That is from one of the cited reports above). The law states what you powers have, you cannot go beyond that just because you want to or because “that’s what we do”.

7.In legal terms Wandsworth Council did not set up a police service in 1984 as you assert, because it can’t legally do that, and there is no such thing as a ‘police service’ in law. What it did do in 1984, as per the relevant Act, is establish a body of constables (a constabulary) to enforce bye laws and enactments in the parks and open spaces of Wandsworth Borough. You may call yourselves WPP (there are issues with this but I’ll leave them for now) but in legal terms you are a London Borough Parks Constabulary.

8.Wiki is indeed a place to find articles of interest as you state. The issue is that the articles should, as far as possible should be accurate. At the moment myself, and others don’t think it is. And please do not think that because we disagree (with reasons) with you that we all have a personal agenda. I, for one, would leave these pages alone if I felt for one minute they were an accurate reflection of the legislation.

9.The reason the issues regarding police powers and equipment were raised is that police officers carry all the equipment and have full police powers. WPP officers do not carry all police equipment (i.e. CS) and there is some queries regarding lawfulness of batons (as per the reports) and do not have full police powers. Therefore this tends to support the argument that WPP officers are not police officers or police constables.

10.Don’t understand your point. I’m sure you do sit comfortably on crime reduction initiatives. Many organisations assist with these initiatives such as London Fire Brigade, Social Services, Charities and others. Doesn’t make you police officers though. Regarding comparison with other London parks constabularies. WPP and all other London borough constabularies are established and authorised under the exact same legislation. Therefore any legal reports or case law (if there is any) into any of the London parks constabularies does have a bearing and relevance to the WPP. You can’t pick and choose because it’s the exact same law being reported on. If you have any legal opinion reports that back up you claims, please cite them. Plenty of reports have been cited above backing my position.

And finally regarding your last paragraph – Yes I do support your efforts in the parks. And if you are arresting outside the parks for statute law using police powers you are acting unlawfully, no question. Thanks for the support regarding my profession, though it’s quite unnecessary. TOA63 (talk) 19:19, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * You're the third user to try and have a sensible discussion and I can tell you now it's sadly not worth it :( We should leave it to COI/N and see what happens. Thank you for your efforts, they really are much appreciated. ninety:one 19:23, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Right of reply
User 91 has tried everything he can to get his personal view endorsed onto the article. He has reported TopCat666 to his employer, he has solicited other Wikipedians in a campaign against TopCat666. This is now the latest example, he has added numerous templates accusing various problems with the article and TopCat. He has been warned by admin for his POV's and accusing the Wandsworth Parks Police of breaking the law. Which he has done again. He appears to have made another username up, TOA63 in attempt to give Wikipedians the false impression this is someone independent. I suspect he is using both names because of only a three minute gap between two postings on the discussion page between the two usernames. He also falsely reports replies on the discussion page and is ignoring independent edits from admin Chrislk02, McGeddon, Timothy Titus and others. User 91 is bulling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying) in his edits and this should not be allowed to continue. I am actually quite new to Wiki as an editor if this needs to be forwarded to another area of Wiki, i.e. complaints etc please point me in the right direction.


 * Total BS. I have never complained to Wandsworth council. I have done exactly what I am supposed to do in this situations, and gone to RfC and the relevant WikiProject. I was not 'warned by an admin', we reached consensus over a misunderstanding on my part. I brought the matter up on his talk page, it was most certainly not a warning, and it had nothing to do with him being an admin. Please, exactly what on earth does 'falsely reports replies on the discussion page' mean? And when have I been 'ignoring independent edits'? Accusing me of having a sock is one of the most serious accusations you could make on Wikipedia, and totally untrue. Just because there is more than one person who disagrees with you doesn't mean they are all socks. Feel free to go to WP:RCU and ask them to investigate. If your accusations weren't so widespead and serious, this would be amusing. ninety:one 17:14, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Office of Constable
Extract verbatim from Police Federation (England & Wales)

What it means to hold the Office of Constable:

Every sworn police officer in England and Wales is a ‘Constable’, irrespective of rank. It is from the Office of Constable that each officer derives their powers. On appointment each police officer makes a declaration to “faithfully discharge the duties of the Office of Constable”. In England and Wales, police officers swear an oath of allegiance to the monarch; this is to ensure the separation of power and political independence of the Office of Constable. The office of Constable means a police officer has the additional legal powers of arrest and control of the public given to him or her directly by a sworn oath and warrant. These are not delegated powers simply because they have been employed as an officer. Police officers are not employees. Each sworn constable is an independent legal official; they are not agents of the police force, police authority or government. Each police officer has personal liability for their actions or inaction. The chief officer of the force to which the constable is attached also has a level of corporate responsibility. Those who hold the Office of Constable are servants of the Crown, not employee. Police officers have access to most statutory employment rights afforded to employees, but it is a criminal offence for police officers to take industrial action. Holding the Office of Constable means a police officer executes their duty independently, without fear or favour. With the Office of Constable comes personal accountability and responsibility for the protection of life and property, the prevention and detection of crime, themaintenance of law and order and the detection and prosecution of offenders. Police officers must be allowed to police using common sense, free from political preference and political targets. Again, the Office of Constable and the rule of law protect this.The Constable must be at the heart of policing communities, ensuring cohesion and security at a local, national and international level. Those holding the Office of Constable do so in full knowledge of the increasing dangers they face, the accountability both on and off duty and the restrictions placed on their family lives (see Restraints upon the Office of Constable).Wandsworth Police 

Every sworn in Police Officer or Police Constable (if you prefer) of the Wandsworth Parks Police. Is attested at Magistrates Court and is a Crown Servant amongst their other roles. Below is that of the oath that every Police Officer (England & Wales) must take.

I, ..  .. of ..  .. do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law." Wandsworth Police Officer's oath http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_oath

The document in the link http://www.polfed.org/OC_Final.pdfclearly points out that every Constable is a Police Officer and vice versa. Thank you for reading this. Wandsworth Police Officer (talk) 09:42, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Right, yet again you have not answered the questions above I posted but make a tenuos leap to an organisation which has nothing to do with thw WPP. Do not use the police federation of England & Wales to try and justify yourselves. This organisation represents Police officers of the rank of Police constable to Chief Inspector of the 43 Home Office forces in England & Wales only.

Wpp constables are NOT members of the police federation, I would imagine you are members of trade union but not the police federation. Why? Because you are not POLICE constables nor police officers. Not one person has argued that you are not constables. You are, BUT you are not POLICE constables with all the powers and privilages of that office. Every constable is certainly NOT a police officer. Yes, it says every police officer is a 'constable' whatever their rank because a Superintendent is still in a legal sense a constable (with additional powers due to rank) but the federation is not saying constables of parks constabularies are police officers.

You really do need to read the reports on your own organsation by Wandsworth Council itself and realise that you are so much on dodgy ground. You've pointed to the police federation report to try and justify yourselves. This quite clearly points out that POLICE constables are crown servants. Your own organisation (Wandsworth Council) quite clearly says you cannot enforce criminal law like a police officer nor are you Crown servants, hence why your not allowed to carry CS. This is the link:

So, instead of answering my questions above with legal basis, you leap to an organisation that represents Police officers of Home Office forces which you think supports your claims but in fact is more in support of my opinion! And I suggest to you, that the police federation, if it were asked its actual opinion would categorically state you are not police officers or police constables. (The flyer you quoted was a general circulation for the public across the country about police officers in the federation not a legal document for you to try and back up your claims)

Right, try and answer my numbered points above. If its so straight forward, show me TOA63 (talk) 17:18, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Lots of London parks constables used to be UNISON but UNISON said they couldn't carry batons so loads went to GMB instead. 1967 constables, as far as I know, have no oath stipulated by law - the one copied above applies only to territorial police forces. Wandsworth Police Constable, your own employer regularly refers to you as anything but 'Police Constables', and I'm sure the Fed would be only to happy to concur. Unless you particularly want a section dedicated to how Wandsworth does calls you parks constables etc., i suggest we agree upon 'constables' ninety:one 19:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Guy you are so sad
You have been beat, your nonsense does not impress bye. TopCat666 (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well done, you have committed a breach of the Data Protection Act. I provided my name to Wandsworth Council in confidence, you have released it. I am now considering complaining. With regards to your edit, the FOI response states twice that all vehicles are marked. 'All vehicles have reflective markings in order to provide a high visual impact during the day and at night' and 'Officers patrol the Borough in modern, highly recognisable marked police vehicles'. I will remove the word unmarked as it is unsourced and, in this case, controversial. ninety:one 22:03, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Unmarked Police Vehicle
Its a fact we have a fully kitted out Unmarked Police vehicle, if knew how I would stick a picture on the article for you! I have put it back in the article, nowhere does it state we do not have unmarked vehicles. TopCat666 (talk) 11:11, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Please familiarise yourself with basic Wikipedia policy on verifiability. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true."
 * Although we'd save a lot of time if we could use real-world truths from people who work in relevant areas, it would carry potential problems of abuse or accidental inaccuracy, and conflict of interest policy specifically warns against it. --McGeddon (talk) 11:20, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Exceptions to the rule
Hi Doug, firstly of course there are exception to every rule, even in law. A quick answer to your question. There are 40 odd Bye-laws applicable in certain parks and openspaces in Wandsworth. Wandsworth's Police Officers can arrest under section 24 of PACE which is a lot more in depth then merely the suspect lying! There are only certain Bye-laws that there are full Police Powers to search a person or vehicle under section 1 of PACE 1984. There is the Police Power of search upon arrest (for bye-law offence), section 32 of PACE. Everybody can search under certain circumstances using common law when making an any person arrest, section 24a of PACE. We are and continue doing this and as we take our prisoners to a designated police station, no problem there then. Please take time to look back at questions and answers on the discussion page as we have a lot of duplicated questions, there is also a wealth of links. Thanks. TopCat666 (talk) 21:38, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

RfC: Wandsworth Parks Police
User with COI is eschewing talk page discussion and editing with POV statements. ninety:one 14:28, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

RfC: That is bad! Seriously, uninvolved editors need to be told about the content dispute, not how an editor is breaking policy.Yobmod (talk) 10:42, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * the content dispute requires reading three talk pages.. this is very complicated. ninety:one 12:56, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


 * So how about explaining one disputed edit at a time - the easier it is for uninvolved editors to understand, the more likely consensus will be reached. The only problem i see from a first read is a lack of citations - try adding fact tags and letting editors find support for their claims for a reasonable but limited time period. Following procedure may be slow, but it helps to diffuse personality clashes :-) Yobmod (talk) 08:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * one of the main issues, as demonstrated further down this page, is the title of the constables. added tags. ninety:one 12:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * "There are some that hold an opinion, that the Monadnock Extendable Batons carried by these Police Constables may not be lawful in a public place." This is not the place for this, file a police report, and immediately delete this wp:or


 * This case will not be resolved by an RfC in my opinion. It is not clearly articulated what the issue is. My take is that one user should be banned from this article because they are just too close to this topic. I suggest the next step in the dispute resolution. Raggz (talk) 10:34, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It was actually one of the constables that added that sentence, but I'm only to happy to source it. ninety:one 21:01, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Outstanding issues
several points.
 * 'Police Constables' - not only do countless reports say this title is inaccurate, the law does not use this title and Wandsworth refers to them as anything but 'Police Constables' because they do not have full police powers. The term 'Police Constable' is misleading and should be replaced immediately.
 * Dog section - this text is still copyrighted on the website and is a currently a copyvio. Tagged as such. ninety:one 20:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Every sworn in Police Officer or Police Constable (if you prefer) of the Wandsworth Parks Police. Is attested at Magistrates Court and is a Crown Servant amongst their other roles. Further up is that of the oath that every Police Officer (England & Wales) must take. and here is again an explanation of a that all attested Police Constables are Police Officers etc. . Please do not have me explain it all again to you, just go back to on this discussion page its all there. TopCat666 (talk) 23:26, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Wandsworth council say they do not carry CS because they are not Crown Servants. 1967 constables are not attested under the PRA 2002 oath, it means nothing. You have ignored the fact that Wandsworth council does not call them 'Police Constables', and the fact that such a description would misleadingly imply that they have full police powers. (McGeddon, can you archive some of this? I would, but I wasn't sure which method you used before) ninety:one 17:15, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I just added a template asking MiszaBot to archive anything over a month old - it'll do it automatically for old content. --McGeddon (talk) 23:07, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * We do not wish to carry CS Spray, we would like to carry PAVA pepper spray. The only reason we do not carry either, is because they are classed as a firearm and therefore a firearms licence is required. Nothing to do with us being Crown Servants. As I said before please do not let me explain it all again! I do not understand your reasoning on the full police powers. You know we have the full powers of a Police Officer when we are performing our core function. So who is hoodwinking who? TopCat666 (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you have full powers, why this? "with a few exceptions enjoy the powers and privileges of the office of a Constable." Doug Weller (talk) 16:24, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * the only powers they have are whilst enforcing parks bylaws, and even then they can only arrest if they think someone is lying about their name or address or search after a bylaw offence. the reason 1967 constables can't carry CS/PAVA is because they are not excluded by section 54 3 a of the firearms act 1968. I certainly had read in one of the countless reports that the reason was due to them not being Crown Servants - which whilst not incorrect is an oversimplification. anyway, the argument is not about 'Crown Servants' but 'Police Constables' - what is wrong with just 'constable'? ninety:one 16:40, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A member of the Wandsworth Police Service, upon being sworn in and taking the oath at the local Magistrates Court. Shall in their jurisdictions have the powers of a Police Constable to enforce the bye-laws and other enactments relating to openspace law. They will generally have no police powers in the other jurisdictions, unless he/she has been additionally sworn in as occurs with police in border areas, many of what are perceived as "police" powers, such as the general power of arrest, are actually possessed by all persons. So a Wandsworth Parks Police Constable is never totally powerless. All police officers are "Police Constables" in law, irrespective of rank. You will see we do not only have powers to enforce bye-laws, we arrest many criminals both in and outside the parks. Including handcuffing them and other police restraint holds. 91, you may recognize some of the research above! ;) TopCat666 (talk) 17:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * How clever of you, copypasting text from Law enforcement in the United Kingdom and inserting words in. The section is innaccurate and I am re-writing it at the moment (here).


 * 'we arrest many criminals both in and outside the parks. Including handcuffing them and other police restraint holds.' - that is perfectly legal, handcuffs are not offensive weapons - even i could do what you just said.
 * 'we do not only have powers to enforce bye-laws' - that's funny, the law says you are sworn in as a constable for the purpose of 'securing the observance of... ...bye-laws and regulations...'
 * again, what is wrong with 'constable'? ninety:one 18:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Even funnier anyone can enforce the law, thats where common law any persons powers started and sec 24a PACE at the moments finishes. Surely you would not expect a sworn in Police Officer to ignore a crime being committed? You had better rethink your rewrite, before someone else does. By the way do not restrict nicking people to the borough of Wandsworth either.

Police Officer or Police Constable I do not mind either, in the law courts we are referred to as Police Officer, by the Judge. So unless you at last actually present concrete evidence and not your personal view or hang up. We can continue this circle for ever,(or until there is some legislation change either way). TopCat666 (talk) 20:55, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Well guess what, the legislation calls you a 'constable'. I could cite any one of countless reports which refer to you as anything but 'Police Constables'. Also, the sentence 'The service also holds Her Majesty's Golden Jubilee Medal as Police Officers' is inaccurate - the reference you cite says 'members of the police service', and can not be used to back up the title 'Police Officers'. ninety:one 19:37, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Verifiablity of sources
WP:VERIFY "This page in a nutshell: Material challenged or likely to be challenged, and all quotations, must be attributed to a reliable, published source." Something similar has been discussed on the Reliable sources noticeboard. Like the document in that case, the FOI document in this case has not been published. I'm raising the issue there. - Oops, forgot to sign. Doug Weller (talk) 16:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The information is not likely to be challenged, and the only quotation is from the 1967 Act which I'm trying to get out of the Lords library. Still, Wandsworth ignored my requests to publish it, though i'm sure there's some way of forcing them. In this case, there's precious little else to go on. ninety:one 16:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree, but having taken part in the Aspartame discussion, I felt this should be raised--it interests me as someone who has been involved in FOI requests anyway. Doug Weller (talk) 17:17, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely agree. Is there any way to make them publish a FOI response? In fact, according to Topcat, this is a standard document they produce not a custom-written one. Topcat, as you can see it's in your own interests to publish the document - can you try and do this? ninety:one 18:04, 7 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The FOI response as it stands adds little value. Clearly it's a standard information sheet, hence ephemera rather than record, but by hosting it and referencing it without including the FOI itself you render it liable to fairly significant abuse.  Frankly the use of the source is pretty tortured as it stands.
 * ALR (talk) 09:09, 13 September 2008 (UTC)