Talk:War Bureau of Consultants

Discussion from T:TDYK

 * [[Image:Symbol confirmed.svg|18px]] Checks out but the hooks and the article are fairly misleading. The CWS not the WRS took charge of the bio weapons program (p. 45 in Undue Risk). WRS was a useless org disbanded two years later. Also "offensive" in the hook seems unnecessary because "offensive" in bio-weapons relates mostly to doctrine of use (meaningless overuse of the word in political documents notwithstanding), and it's not used in either source you cite in the context of the 1942 report. (see Undue Risk p. 109, pp. 263-264, and p. 294 for further discussion). Suggest changing the hook to read: "... that in 1942 recommendations from the U.S. War Bureau of Consultants led to the initiation of a bio-weapons program by the Chemical Warfare Service?". The article needs to be updated with the facts I mentioned above. Xasodfuih (talk) 11:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * This is nitpicking, the hook doesn't say the WRS took charge of the program, though they did, the CWS didn't take charge of it until George Merck assigned it to them, two years later, because the program was too large for the civilian agency, that is from the official history at Fort Detrick, see . And that is also when the WRS folded, useless, is your, and Jonathan Moreno's opinion. Your opinion of "offensive" is duly noted and the word is removed from the hook, but your just wrong about the other stuff, the WRS was indeed highly relevant to the initial phase of the U.S. BW program.--IvoShandor (talk) 12:10, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * YMMV. That site says: "From the moment of its birth in the highest levels of government, the fledgling biological warfare effort was kept to an inner circle of knowledgeable persons. George W. Merck was a key member of the panel advising President Franklin D. Roosevelt and was charged with putting such an effort together. Merck owned the pharmaceutical firm that still bears his name. Merck brought into uniform men and women with skills in several scientific disciplines. Among them was Dr. Ira L. Baldwin, professor of bacteriology at the University of Wisconsin. He became the first scientific director. The Army Chemical Warfare Service was given responsibility and oversight for the effort that Clendenin wrote was "cloaked in the deepest wartime secrecy, matched only by . . . the Manhattan Project for developing the Atomic Bomb." Merck is mentioned as important for bringing in scientists, but WRS did not appear to have had much power over running the program (I trust you're not confusing it with the WBC). Camp Detrick, the history of which you are citing, was built by the CWS's U.S. Army Biological Warfare Laboratories. You're saying that George W. Merck assigned the BW program to them, implying that he had the authority to do so. Xasodfuih (talk) 13:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, even Moreno says that the WRS was in charge of this program at first. He says the War Dept. was reluctant to allow the military to participate in the university research that was going on in the initial phase. Again, what I said before is confirmed in Chapter 4 of the Fort Detrick history: "In May 1942, President Roosevelt authorized Secretary Stimson to establish a civilian agency to take the lead on all aspects of BW. It was assigned to the Federal Security Agency (FSA) to obscure its existence and Merck was named director of the new War Research Service (WRS).


 * It became clear to the WRS and Merck that the initial phase of work with universities and private research institutions was inadequate to meet the need. Large scale efforts above what could be done in scattered centers was an obvious need. The use of biological agents in weapons and concurrent need to develop means of protection against these BW weapons prompted Merck to assign overall responsibility to the Army's Chemical Warfare Service."


 * Who built the facilities does not seem to be relevant. Moreno also says that the the WRS contracted with the first universities to engage in BW research through the CWS. So it's true they were involved, but I have to disagree with the way you are trying to marginalize the War Research Service. Sources confirm that they weren't "useless" and the Detrick history explicitly says the WRS was in charge when the program was established. The CWS eventually took over the program, but not until 1944.--IvoShandor (talk) 13:50, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * My conclusion from reading another source (Luther E. Lindler, Frank J. Lebeda, George Korch, Biological Weapons Defense: Infectious Diseases and Counterbioterrorism, Humana Press, 2005, ISBN 1588291847, 597 pages) is that on paper WRS was supposed to supervise the CWS but that they quickly lost the bureaucratic war to the military. As a compromise, I've mentioned this fact in the article on WRS, so that readers aren't left hanging on that short stub. Xasodfuih (talk) 14:11, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, it was very quickly, the WRS lasted less than a year it would seem but were instrumental in establishing the first BW research programs. Did you see that stuff about the secret "ABC" and "DEF" committees. They don't even get names, they're so secret. :-)--IvoShandor (talk) 23:08, 9 January 2009 (UTC)