Talk:War Cross (Norway)

Warburton-Lee
The British naval officer, Bernard Warburton-Lee, who died during the destroyer action at Narvik is reported at as a recipient of the War Cross. The website referred to in the article, listing recipients, omits Warburton-Lee. Does anyone have an explanation? Is one of these sources wrong? Folks at 137 19:02, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Move to Krigskorset med sverd?
Suggest to move this article to Krigskorset med sverd. See e.g.: Croix de guerre, Bundesverdienstkreuz, Légion d'honneur.......KjellG (talk) 11:45, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Not sure, depends on hwo we interpret WP:COMMONNAME. Even in English language sources, Croix de guerre is referred to as such, there would probably be a case either way on Legion of Honour, part of the reason of going with the French in that case is disambiguation.  The only English language source I've found which refers to this however call it the Norwegian Military Cross (see London Gazette ref in article).  We really need a range of English language sources, and see ho they name it, do they name it in English, or give the Norwegian as the name with an English translation and so on.  David Underdown (talk) 11:54, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm opposing this proposed move. At to the Royal House of Norway's own website the Norwegian Decorations page call it the War Cross with sword, so it seems clear to me that the proper English name is "War Cross with sword". Manxruler (talk) 12:49, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * However, Krigskorset med sverd should redirect here and not be a redlink. Once this issue has been settled I'll get around to fixing that. Manxruler (talk) 13:07, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * What comment are there to e.g. Croix de Guerre (etc....) not beeing translated accordingly? Some other projects do, some do not. WP:EN is english so it should be like: War Cross (French).KjellG (talk) 19:08, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


 * That's an issue you should take up over at Talk:Croix de guerre. Or perhaps rather with the Wikipedia policy folks. Manxruler (talk) 00:48, 22 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Please read the link I pointed you to above. There were hundreds if not thousands of Croix de guerre issued to Allied forces in the First and Second World Wars, so the meaning of Croix de gurre is fairly well understood - particularly given that many peopel understand some French.  English languag sources almost invariably refer to the Croix de guerre using the French title, not an English translation, so per Wikipedia policy, that's how the article is titled.  This decoration has been awarded to just 126 non-Norwegians, so it is not nearly so well known, nor is Norwegian so widely understood by English speakers.  The only English language sources I've seen have named it using an English translation primarily, as pointed out above, even a Norwegian website name sit this way in its English language version.  David Underdown (talk) 10:28, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


 * As this move doesn't seem to be happening I took the liberty of creating Krigskorset med sverd as a redirect to War Cross with sword. Manxruler (talk) 00:47, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Agreeing for RELATIVELY_"best choice" [w.] 19:09, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

Norwegian War Cross
Just been adding medal references to articles from the London Gazette and it uses the term The Norwegian War Cross it is not clear from this article if the War Cross and War Cross and Sword are the same. Are they two different classes of the same award? MilborneOne (talk) 08:57, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * If you look in the seciton above this you'll find a link to the Norwegian Monarchy's webpage on Norwegian decorations. It lists only the War Cross with sword, there's nothing else with a similar name, closest is War Medal.  From what I've been able to make out, the first award consists of the medal, plus one sword on the ribbon, subsequent awards being marked by the addition of a further sword for each award (rather like British practice of adding a bar to the ribbon for each subsequent award).  From what I've seen of foreign awards in the Gazette, there's no great consistency in how they're described, even for the common awards like the Croix de guerre, sometimes they mention additional devices added, sometimes they don't.  David Underdown (talk) 09:08, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep. The Brits just didn't get the name right. There's one class only. Manxruler (talk) 09:10, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * OK thanks for that, should really redirect Norwegian War Cross to this page as it appears in a few British articles. MilborneOne (talk) 10:58, 5 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Absolutely. Will do. Manxruler (talk) 11:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Photo credits are lacking.
Please credit the top photo in the article, in the same way as it has been done on Norwegian-wiki.

"From the private collection of KEN. Photo by KEN."

(Fortunately, on Norwegian-wiki, we really know how to do things right.)--85.166.1.124 (talk) 11:58, 17 October 2009 (UTC)


 * As I understand it, the policy on English Wikipedia is that the information on the image's own page is sufficient credit, and it is unnecessary to give credit directly in image captions. David Underdown (talk) 15:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


 * The relevant policy is Captions: “Unless relevant to the subject, do not credit the image author or copyright holder in the article. It is assumed that this is not necessary to fulfill attribution requirements of the GFDL or Creative Commons licenses as long as the appropriate credit is on the image description page.” --Kjetil_r 14:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Clarification
Ok, I have blundered, I think. I interpreted the basic award as the "War Cross (Norway)" with "swords" added as for British medal bars; this was prompted by the apparent primacy of the War Cross (Norway) article and my mis-reading of the lead para (I still think there's ambiguity). On this basis I started to review award holders and placing them into Category:Recipients of the War Cross (Norway) (single awards) and Category:Recipients of the Norwegian War Cross with Sword (multiple awards).

I have now realised that the basic award is "with Sword" but before I correct my edits, could someone please confirm this is correct and is there a explanation on why the main article is not "War Cross with Sword (Norway)" or "Norwegian War Cross with Sword" (currently a redirect)? Apologies. Folks at 137 (talk) 06:03, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


 * The sword was awarded by default in the inductions after 18 May 1945. Before that the statutes  said: "When the War Cross is awarded for personal effort in combat, the  ribbon has a sword". It was awarded a few times to banners or units,  those awards were without sword. The royalty awards were without sword,  as were some awards to foreigners and civilians. Paaln (talk) 12:18, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the info, Paaln; it would be good to include it in the article, with references. My original inquiry could be summarised as "Is the proper name of this award "War Cross" or "War Cross with Sword"? It sounds, from what you say, as if it's the "War Cross", but with the majority of cases having a sword displayed on the ribbon. So, what distinguishes "some awards to foreigners and civilians" that some awards are with/without sword? Are the "royalty awards" anything more than courtesies; how do we categorise them? Some English sources refer to awards both with and without sword, but I'm uncertain as to whether these are typo errors. Is there a reliable online source that can be used? Don't mind doing the work but I don't want to fall into another bear trap. Folks at 137 (talk) 16:11, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

complete list of Norwegian decorations
As of 2014-05-21, I was given a complete list of Norwegian decorations, after request on Mr. Torstein Raaby by email.

I'm sure such is "encyclopedically relevant", BUT I do not know how to handle Original says: ...Mr Torstein Raaby held «krigskorset med sverd» (War Cross with swords). Norwegian decorations and their order of precedence:


 * 1) War Cross with swords
 * 2) Medal for Outstanding Civic Achievement
 * 3) The Royal Norwegian Order of St. Olav
 * 4) The Royal Norwegian Order of Merit
 * 5) Haakon VIIs Freedom Cross
 * 6) St. Olavs medal with Oak Branch
 * 7) Medal for Heroism in Gold
 * 8) The Kings Medal of Merit in Gold
 * 9) St. Olav's Medal
 * 10) War Medal
 * 11) Medal of Heroism, Military
 * 12) Haakon VIIs Freedom Medal
 * 13) Medal for Heroism in Silver
 * 14) Medal for Rescue at Sea
 * 15) Nansen medal for Outstanding Research
 * 16) Police Cross of Honour *
 * 17) Civil Defence Cross of Honour *
 * 18) Defence Cross of Honour *
 * 19) Defence Service Medal with Laurel Branch
 * 20) Police Service Medal with Laurel Branch
 * 21) Civil Defence Service Medal with Laurel Branch
 * 22) The Kings Medal of Merit
 * 23) Defence Medal 1940 – 1945
 * 24) H. M. The Kings Medal of Merit for Service in the Home Guard
 * 25) Norwegian Korea Medal
 * 26) Maudheim medal
 * 27) Antarctic Medal
 * 28) H. M. The Kings Commemorative Medal in Gold
 * 29) The Royal House Centenary Medal
 * 30) Haakon VIIs Commeorative Medal 1. October 1957
 * 31) Haakon VIIs Jubilee Medal 1905 – 1930
 * 32) Haakon VIIs Jubilee Medal 1905 – 1955
 * 33) Haakon VIIs 70th Anniversary Medal
 * 34) Haakon VIIs Centenary Medal
 * 35) Olav Vs Commemorative Medal of 30. January 1991
 * 36) Olav Vs Jubilee Medal
 * 37) Olav Vs Centenary Medal
 * 38) H. M. The Kings Commemorative Medal in Silver
 * 39) Defence Service Medal
 * 40) Police Service Medal
 * 41) Civil Defence Service Medal
 * 42) Defence Medal - Wounded in Action
 * 43) Defence Medal - International Operations
 * 44) Police Medal International Service
 * 45) Civil Defence International Service
 * 46) Medal for Defence Service Abroad
 * 47) Medal for Defence Operation Abroad
 * 48) National Service Medal

NOTE: Decorations 16, 17 and 18 [Author's note: of /48] are of equal rank, but are listed here in order of seniority. (Original is signed by Kansellisjef, DET KONGELIGE HOFF, Oslo) Any help would be welcome. -- [w.] 04:56, 23 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I may be missing something, but anyway, since it is not obvious to me: what do you need/want help with? Paaln (talk) 12:51, 24 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, I thought a complete list of 46 Norwegian decorations might be relevant&useful, but I do not think I'd be able to set up such article in the right way. so, I'd prefer to leave such to a native English speaking &comptetent wikipedian.
 * For instance, often Order of St. Olav is called "highest ranked Noewegian decoration" -- which is not quite true as there are 2 higher ranked decorations... (of which e.g. Torstein Raaby held the highest).
 * Hope I made myself clear enough on this issue? -- Best, [w.] 11:15, 25 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I asked the Norwegians if they can give us a little bit of help here. -- Winter eu (talk)  11:52, 25 May 2014 (UTC)


 * In case you need a source to cite, you can find the list of decorations at the web site of The Royal Court: Norwegian Decorations. Norwegian Decorations and their Order of Precedence. Established by Royal Decree of 11 June 1943 with subsequent additions, latest of 30 January 2012. For Norwegian names and ribbons, see group 1 (Gruppe 1: Dekorasjoner godkjent av H.M. Kongen) at Wikipedia in bokmål/riksmål: Liste over dekorasjoner godkjent til bruk på norsk militær uniform. Please also note this article: Orders, decorations, and medals of Norway. Best regards, Ordensherre (talk) 12:06, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry

 * Zwischenstop=Break. Sorry for being "somewhat slow in answering" - please allow a break of ~1,5_hrs. I did my best to improve, but was "superseeded" whilst editing. [w.] 12:22, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

[w.] 13:19, 25 May 2014 (UTC)-- [w.] 21:26, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) http://www.royalcourt.no/artikkel.html?tid=33029&sek=33027&sek=27258 says exactly what was emailed to me by "Det Koneglige Hoff" (The Royal House of Norway), a few days ago, and what I put into this talk, a few lines above: existing '48 orders', by order of...:
 * 2) This'upper'one does not (seems not to) 100% comply with article War Cross (Norway), mainly because it does not explicitely cite "one-or2-or3 swords" as official "sub-degrees". Ongoing edit. [w.] 12:40, 25 May 2014 (UTC)


 * I would put my "faith" onto the Norwegian article. -- Winter eu (talk)  23:59, 25 May 2014 (UTC)