Talk:War artist

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BetacommandBot (talk) 07:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

== New file : ==

thumb Recently the file : (right) was uploaded and it appears to be relevant to this article and not currently used by it. If you're interested and think it would be a useful addition, please feel free to include it. It's a selfportrait. Dcoetzee 07:02, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

Dispute definition of war artist
The current introduction runs as follows:

''A war artist, also known as a combat artist, captures the experience of war in an artistic manner whilst based in the battlefield. Unlike war poets, a war artist is almost always acting in an official capacity.''

On what is this based? I have an interest in POW art and many such works are of importance but were created in captivity in a voluntary, or only semi-official, capacity eg soldiers who happened to be artists would record POW life after capture. Sometimes this would be on a self-appointed basis, otherwise it would be on the instruction of a senior officer. Such works have been: used in war crime trials; placed in museums (such as the Imperial War Museum); subsequently sold for considerable sums (such as the works of Jack Bridger Chalker).

I would welcome input before editing the introduction. Tomintoul (talk) 14:33, 16 November 2009 (UTC)


 * We have a definition here of "War Art":
 * (1) by artists officially commissioned either to spend varying periods of wartime under fire or to be present at nearly every kind of military activity, in order to record them; or
 * (2) by servicemen-artists responding to powerful inner urges to depict direct war experience; or
 * (3) by sensitive onlookers; or
 * (4) by a combination of all of these.
 * Searching Google Books brings up the same thing, War Art is art by people involved in war in some manner. I am also wondering if this article should be moved to "War Art", articles should be about the thing or the person? Ohioartdude2 (talk) 23:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Too many unreferenced/redlink artists here?
There are many artists here who are unreferenced, let alone having their own entry. Should they be deleted?Tomintoul (talk) 09:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * There seems to be some reference at the top of the sections but, yeah, lists should probably be list existent articles, and there is Manual of Style (lists). I have seen discussions about too many red links and this may be considered borderline. I would tend toward leaving them so someone can flesh them out or delete them, depending on what refs exist. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 16:52, 4 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with the redlinks is that these are all supposed to be "famous" war artists - at a minimum, artists should be sufficiently notable to have their own Wikipedia article to qualify. If redlinks are eliminated, it is obviously without prejudice for someone to create an article later on and to re-insert the artist's name on this list.  I would suggest that they ought to be deleted, as  otherwise the section runs afoul of WP:V and WP:OR.  As an added point, I would reword the title to "Notable war artists" (which more accurately describes what is intended than the word "famous").  --Skeezix1000 (talk) 15:46, 15 July 2010 (UTC)


 * What about moving the red links to the talk page? Decision-making about any one of the red links might benefit from further discussion? Compare, for example,
 * Order of the Rising Sun
 * Order of the Sacred Treasure
 * Could a strategy like this prove helpful in improving the quality and scope of this article? --Tenmei (talk) 03:40, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree: move all redlinks to talk page pending proof of notability.Tomintoul (talk) 10:51, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Dynamic lists
It seems OTT to have a dynamic list note under each sub heading: surely one note at the top would suffice?? Tomintoul (talk) 10:57, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In response to this comment, all dynamic list templates were removed. However, today I added templates in the American, Australian, British and Canadian sections.  Are they not necessary? unhelpful? --Tenmei (talk) 21:07, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Status: notability?
Does it make sense to limit new additions to this list? Is it appropriate at this stage of the article's development to initiate a standard limiting names on this select list to
 * (a) those who already have Wikipedia articles
 * and
 * (b) those who are notable for something other than having depicted war in art -- see, e.g., US Navy Cross edit history?

In a context informed by practices which seem to have worked out well at Navy Cross, all new additions who aren't already featured in an article could be re-redirected to this talk page section with the following edit history explanation:
 * redlink/artist name must be known for something other than depicting war -- see "Status: Notability" on talk page

The redlinks of those whose names were added, but who do not have an article yet are listed below:

Notable American war artists

 * Conrade Wise Chapman, Civil War
 * Frank Vizetelly, Civil War
 * Charles Johnson Post, Soldier-artist, Spanish American War
 * Walter Granville-Smith, Newspaper, Spanish American War
 * George Harding Army/Marines, World War I
 * Griffith Baily Coale Navy, World War II
 * Franklin Boggs
 * Manuel Bromberg
 * Howard Cook Army, World War II
 * David Fredenthal Army, World War II
 * Richard M. Gibney
 * Albert Gold Army, World War II
 * Robert Greenhalgh
 * George Harding Marines, World War II
 * Theo Hios Marines, World War II
 * Ardis Hughes, World War II
 * Lucien Labaudt Army, World War II
 * Edward Lanning Army, World War II
 * Edward Millman Navy, World War II
 * Bill Maudlin Army, World War II
 * Barse Miller Army, World War II
 * Harry D. Reeks Marines, World War II
 * Edward Reep
 * Alexander P. Russo Navy, World War II
 * Sidney Simon Army, World War II
 * A. Brockie Stevenson Army, World War II
 * Frede Vidar Army, World War II
 * Kristopher J. Battles, Recent conflicts
 * Bernard Arnest, 1917–1986
 * Walter Arnett, 1922–


 * Richard Baldwin, 1920–
 * Robert Benny, 1904–
 * Robert Noel Blair, 1912–
 * William Bostick, 1913–
 * Manuel Bromberg, 1917–
 * Foster Caddell, 1921–
 * William Capece, 1919–
 * Walter Chapman, 1912–
 * Keith Crown, 1918–
 * Wayne Dean
 * Walter Feldman, 1925–
 * David Fredenthal, 1915–1958.
 * Richard Gibney, 1922–
 * Albert Gold, 1916–
 * Theo Hios, 1908–
 * Joe Jones Army
 * Mimi Korach Lesser, 1922–
 * Julian Mackewicz, 1915–
 * Richard Morton (artist), 1921–
 * Albert Murray (artist) Navy
 * Stephen Pace (artist), 1918–
 * Harry Reeks, 1921–1982.
 * Charles Salerno, 1912–
 * Charles Shannon (artist), 1914–
 * Benjamin Steele
 * Albert Stevenson, 1919–
 * James Walker (artist)?
 * Albert Wasserman, 1920–
 * Patricia Yaps, 1935-.


 * Notes

or , then sign your comment with  ''. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.''


 * Oppose - It should be split and their should be articles on both topics. War artists are a distinctive subculture in the military and the art communities, and have very different objectives then regular artists(alternative title for the article could be "Combat artist" to make it more distinct and utilize the titling gave by sources such as those of the article United States Army Art Program). War art can be done by both "war artists" and regular artists. Sadads (talk) 17:37, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * comment - You may want to provide references to the effect that these topics are different. Reliable sources I have found so far say the topics are the same and Wikipedia does not allow for content forks. I would note that the article United States Army Art Program seems to be a descriptive article based on observation of the title in documentation, not art historical reference, has no supporting references in its introduction, and the first document cited clearly states the topic as "War art". Ohioartdude2 (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Also, consider links found when you google search it, http://www.google.com/search?q=Combat+artist&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a, Sadads (talk) 19:11, 9 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose - Rationale explained above. --Tenmei (talk) 01:05, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Support - WP:ADJECTIVE already covers redirects to base noun forms and reference obviously show "war art" and "war artist" are the same topic. "war art" Google Scholars at 4,670, "war artist" Google Scholars at 1,270 pointing to the prime topic. SomeRandomFilmArticleEditor (talk) 19:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose - War art is far too general: it could include things like Che Guevara T-shirts!Tomintoul (talk) 07:20, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

Discussion

 * Any additional comments:

Published work incorporating term "war artist"
WP:V simplifies the issue at hand. It bears repeating that "the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth&mdash;whether readers can check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true."

Is it not self-evident that the appropriateness of an article about the war artist is validated by the books which incorporate the term "war artist" in the title, e.g., I hope this short list helps to sharpen issues which may need further development. --Tenmei (talk) 16:57, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Foot, Michael Richard Daniel. (1990). Art and War: Twentieth Century Warfare as Depicted by . London: Headline. 10-ISBN 0747202869/13-ISBN 9780747202868; OCLC 21407670
 * Harries, Meirion and Suzie Harries. (1983). The : British Official War Art of the Twentieth Century. London: Michael Joseph. 10-ISBN 071812314X/13-ISBN 9780718123147; OCLC 9888782
 * Haworth, Jennifer. (2007). The Art of War: New Zealand in the Field 1939-1945. Christchurch, New Zealand: Hazard Press. 13-ISBN 9781877393242/10-ISBN 187739324X; OCLC 174078159
 * Weber, John Paul (1979). The German . Columbia, South Carolina: Cerberus. 10-ISBN 0933590008/13-ISBN 9780933590007; OCLC 5727293
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Orphaned references in War artist
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of War artist's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Independent": From Frauke Eigen:  From Linda Kitson:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 12:29, 5 August 2011 (UTC)


 * Fixed. It was my mistake. Thanks, AnomieBOT. Most impressive.  Rubywine . talk 12:47, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

External links modified
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Old problem, even worse now - no reliable sources define this article
Revisiting this article there seem to be several problems:


 * all sources defining the topic have dried up (dead links). Its sourcing style is very unreliable - shortcut links to some websites instead of listing author, title, date, etc.


 * the sourcing I can find does not match the lead of this article:
 * Tate.org - War artists - War artists are artists who are commissioned through an official scheme to record the events of war.
 * The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Art Terms (2 ed.) - Official War Art - Art commissioned in Britain during the First and Second World Wars from selected artists to record the nation at war. The scheme embraced many distinguished painters and draughtsmen.....
 * War and Conflict by Jane Bingham · Raintree 2006, pages 30-35 covers the topic beginning with Goya, through the American Civil War, and notes by WWI the profession of War Artist had been well established.
 * A Combat Artist in World War II, by Edward Reep · University Press of Kentucky 2015, page 200 Note a "war artist" documents war.

So we get a basic definition: "A war artist is an artist commissioned by a government or publication, or self motivated, to document war". Its described as an occupation, not a genre. Tagging and noting the problem for cleanup. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 20:40, 24 November 2019 (UTC)

The definition is is even more complicated: senior officers might instruct others to record events. See Arthur Moon as an example.Tomintoul (talk) 12:23, 25 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Looks like that's a combination of government and self motivated. Ohioartdude2 (talk) 22:38, 26 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I think you are getting over-precise here. Is a narrow definition required? Add those refs by all means - it's no use just adding adding a tag. I've cleaned up by removing it, among other things. Johnbod (talk) 02:14, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Split proposal
The section "War artists by nationality" takes up over three quarters of the article. It should be split into a separate article. J I P &#124; Talk 23:50, 18 September 2021 (UTC)


 * I agree with the split into a separate page.Gusfriend (talk) 04:23, 19 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Oppose, as a large percentage of readers going to the title "War artist" will not find or know to go to another page for fuller information. Nationalities in war are an important part of each conflict, so war artists divided by nationalities (at the main 'War artist' page) covers that aspect of the events. Randy Kryn (talk) 16:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
 * Oppose but the large number of early military/naval artists who painted genre battles on land or sea, often wholly imaginary ones, and usually without ever having gone near an actual conflict, should be somewhere else. Johnbod (talk) 17:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)


 * Support I think a separate page, List of war artists, adhering to the same standards as other such 'List of ...' artist pages would be an improvement.14GTR (talk) 07:14, 14 January 2024 (UTC)