Talk:War crimes in the Tigray War

Genocide Watch statement
We (without links).

The Genocide Watch public announcement mentions:
 * looting and destruction of Tigrayan properties in Oromia and Amhara Regions
 * firing of "Tigrayan ex-officials" which is seen as ethnic profiling
 * the "November 1" 2020 Oromo schoolyard massacre
 * in the left bar, affected groups = amhara, tigrayan, OROMO, gedeo peoples
 * in the left bar, affected groups = amhara, tigrayan, OROMO, gedeo peoples

So I think the current edit is reasonably compatible with the source and only needs copyediting, but if people want to discuss it more, here's there's space to do so... Boud (talk) 00:32, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Genocide watch go beyond reporting massacre on one side report and even recommend change constitution of the country to stop secession of regional state of federation.its up to people of the country whether stay together or apart. there are many massacres in past namely irreecha massacre, anuak genocide so more. I am really sad what happened to this country not able to accommodate each other in whole history the country. in 2018 thing expected to change, however getting worse. its so unfortunate. any way thanks for contributing MfactDr (talk) 01:05, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Crimes against humanity page
Should not parts of the "war crimes" in Tigray be split over to another page, covering crimes against humanity towards Tigrayans?

Reasoning 1:

War crimes solely happens in times of war, while crimes against humanity are not dependent on warfare in itself. If reaching a severe enough level, war crimes might constitute crimes against humanity. For Tigray, such a level has probably been met, so that it should ble split up.

Reasoning 2: Much points towards that the crimes against humanity committed by Ethiopia and it's allied Amhara militia and Eritrea, are not side-effects of a civil war, but rather the main objective.

For Tigray, several sources point towards that the ethnic cleansing, massacres and destructions of means of existence, was pre-planned and started before the war breaking out on the 3rd of November 2020. In other words, they don't happens as war crimes as a side-effect of war, but it's the objective of the "war" itself.

Some sources:

1. Ethiopia and Amhara militia broadcasting a planned genocide on the Tigrayans, on Ethiopian state TV already in October 2020:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GebrekirstosG/status/1364983791241019392

This planned genocide neccetitated a war, but it should not be hidden under a "war crimes"-title. IMO this looks like Rwanda in 1994: Took a long time to realize that the Rwandan genocide was not a war fueling massacres, but instead a genocide under the disguise of labeling it first a "rebellion" from the victims, and then an armed conflict. The genocide-stoppers RPF was named "rebels", while the government carrying out the genocide was describes as participating in counter-insurgency and a civil war.

2. Martin Plaut describing that before Ethiopia's claimed "trigger" for the war on Tigray,

"there had already been some fighting in Western Tigray by then between Amhara Special Forces and Tigrean troops":

https://eritreahub.org/breaking-ethiopias-failed-surgical-strike-commando-raid-to-remove-the-tigray-leadership

3. The Week: A witness describing that the genocide started well before the outbreak of the "war" on Tigray:

"H.A. also confirms what some outside observers have suspected, namely that in Ethiopia there was violence well before November, when reports first emerged of a government-forced blackout following a canceled election. In the countryside, he said, militias were stealing food and burning crops in October. Women were raped, children were murdered. At a farm owned by one of his relations, all but one of the farmhands were killed; at a looted factory owned by a business associate, no one survived. Ethiopian military personnel claimed that nothing could be done".

https://theweek.com/articles-amp/969219/eyewitness-account-atrocities-tigray — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.212.72.232 (talk) 16:05, 5 March 2021 (UTC)


 * It's obvious that sooner or later there'll have to be either an article Crimes against humanity in the Tigray War or Tigray genocide or something with a very similar name. When and whether this would be accepted by the Wikipedian community would depend on the quality of the sourcing, and the ability to split up which event is qualified as which type of crime. The start article would have to be well-written and solidly sourced, it seems to me. The sources above don't look sufficient to me.


 * The difficulty with splitting up war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide of the Tigray War into separate articles is that the sources are far from consensus. Which event would be counted in which article? It could take 5 or 20 years before either Ethiopian courts or the ICC or the International Court of Justice or universal jurisdiction cases are concluded (and they haven't even started). At least on a few months time scale, we will probably only have opinions from notable people or notable organisations. Later, we might have the start of official investigations that clearly state that suspected crimes against humanity are being investigated. In that case we could create articles similar to those for the specific ICC articles - see the ICC navigation boxes and infoboxes and tables - there are lots of related articles.


 * My worry is that we would risk have material shifted from one article to another, or removed from both, or inserted into both, with endless edit battles. Keeping the events themselves mainly in articles on the specific events, and keeping war crimes, crimes against humanity, and genocide together here in this article, seems safer to avoid wasting editing energy to me.


 * you might have an opinion on this informal proposal - you generally seem to know a lot more than me on this subject. Boud (talk) 23:06, 5 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Oppose. A separate article makes no sense as per an academic article, "Nearly all of the underlying offences which could qualify as crimes against humanity would also amount, all other conditions being met, to war crimes, but the converse is not necessarily true." (the main reason an offense would be a crime against humanity but not a war crime is if it was not committed during armed conflict). We have no article for Crimes against humanity in the Yugoslav Wars despite multiple convictions. (Alleged) crimes against humanity should be covered in the war crimes article. A separate article *may* make sense if it turns out to be genocide, but alternately War crimes in the Tigray War could also be moved to Tigray genocide or such. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  23:13, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

TPLF involved in massacring civilians in Aksum and other places in Tigray
TPLF started the war and is involved in massacring civilians in Amhara and Tigray. Here is what was stated by ENDF in November prior to the alleged Axum massacre: “We have received inside information that by recording this acts, TPLF is planning to falsely accuse the Ethiopian Army for killing civilians,” Major General Mohammed Tessema, head of ENDF Indoctrination told the state broadcaster – ETV last night. He indicated that the TPLF is planning to undertake a genocide like “it did recently at Maykadra”.

https://newbusinessethiopia.com/politics/tplf-to-target-civilians-using-eritrean-ethiopian-army-uniforms/

Here are statements by TPLF leader Debretsion on the day of the alleged Axum massacre: Debretsion states Axum retaken. https://www.trtworld.com/africa/tigray-forces-claim-downing-ethiopian-military-plane-retaking-axum-town-41909/amp

History of statements by Ethiopian government this can corroborated with media releases at those times https://mobile.twitter.com/SOEFactCheck/status/1330897185202909187?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1330897185202909187%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fnewbusinessethiopia.com%2Fpolitics%2Ftplf-to-target-civilians-using-eritrean-ethiopian-army-uniforms%2F

If TPLF was in control of Axum during the massacre and they are wearing Eritrean uniforms, then by logic any massacre that happened was done by TPLF soldiers in Eritrean uniforms.

Statement by Ethiopian government MoFA:

https://mobile.twitter.com/mfaethiopia/status/1365293011882696710 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Facttell (talk • contribs) 19:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

Here are TPLF militia caught in Eritrean uniforms:

Tplf militia murdering raping Eritrean refugees in Mai. Afi camp: https://mobile.twitter.com/tesfanews/status/1356781796340367362

Tplf militia leader and his troops arrested in Sudanese refugee camp where Amnesty International interviewed his troops hiding as refugees as witnesses in the Axum massacre of which they were involved in: https://www.ena.et/en/?p=19794 Facttell (talk) 18:47, 15 March 2021 (UTC)


 * New Business Ethiopia seems like it's a regular newspaper, and I've seen that claim circulating elsewhere, so I added it. ✅ Welcome to WP:NPOV. (Personally, I find the claim rather unrealistic in relation to the Aksum massacre: there's no mention of how the TPLF got hold of Eritrean licence plates for vehicles, and the most challenging issue: how did the TPLF train its troops in the Eritrean dialect and accent of Tigrinya so quickly?) It's true that Debretsion claimed that the TPLF retook Aksum on 29 November, but none of the witnesses and survivors attributed the massacre to the TPLF. Both the Amnesty and HRW reports state numerous methods according to which witnesses and survivors identified the perpetrators as EDF, not just the uniforms. (Try reading the reports.) Twitter is usually not accepted as a reliable source.The arrest of Enkuayehu Mesele is an article that uses hate speech, "TPLF criminal militants are being hunted down", but I'm not aware of a ban against using official government news sources that use hate speech; in the Ethiopian situation hate speech is currently widely used in the media; and in the interests of WP:NPOV, I've added the factual type information (not the hate speech). ✅ Boud (talk) 23:33, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually certain subregions of Tigray speak with the Eritrean Tigrinya dialect for example Adwa of which many of the Tplf leaders are from. Additionally Tplf did bring Standard Tigrinya language education to Tigray students with emphasis on speaking the Eritrean Tigrinya dialect for 30 years. “Hunting criminals and terrorists” is comingly used in Western countries especially after 9-11 of which TPLF brutal attack on ENDF soldiers while they slept. Here some more crimes against humanity that TPLF committed against Raya and Eritrean refugees in Tigray! For NPOV the crimes of Tplf must be recorded:

https://www.ezega.com/News/NewsDetails/8252/TPLF-Took-More-Than-10000-Prisoners-from-Abandoned-Towns-Ethiopian-Military Facttell (talk) 01:38, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

10,000 Tigrayan criminals released by TPLF at the beginning of Conflict

https://allafrica.com/stories/202102260384.html

“ Noting that conspiracy politics is the main identity of the TPLF clique, the deputy administrator stated that some members of the criminal faction arrested whilst committing rape wearing ENDF and Eritrean Army uniforms.

The clique distributed uniforms of the ENDF and Eritrean Army for sexual offenders so as to harm the reputation of the disciplined Ethiopian Army.

Also, residents gave their testimony about inmates released by TPLF committed the rape.

"There is a testament that the ENDF is working day and night to bring back people of Tigray to their normal lives and the interim admiration has been working with the police force to crush the criminal clique and restore peace and order in the state," he noted.”Facttell (talk) 02:23, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
 * Note has been blocked as a confirmed sock.--  Jezebel's Ponyo bons mots 20:32, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

Orphaned references in War crimes in the Tigray War
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of War crimes in the Tigray War's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "auto1": From Horn of Africa: John I. Saeed, Somali – Volume 10 of London Oriental and African language library, (J. Benjamins: 1999), p. 250. From Casualties of the Tigray War: https://www.eepa.be//wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Situation-Report-EEPA-Horn-No.-125-13-April-2021.pdf From Gawa Qanqa massacre:  From Togoga airstrike:  

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 07:03, 25 June 2021 (UTC)


 * it is the last one, and I corrected it. Thank you talk:AnomieBOT Rastakwere (talk) 07:35, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 October 2022
Requesting that new information be added to this page about a September 2022 UN investigation.  References

XTheBedrockX (talk) 18:18, 2 October 2022 (UTC)


 * @XTheBedrockX This seems reasonable. Do you have any specific text you would like adding? Vladimir.copic (talk) 04:20, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * @Vladimir.copic never mind, I just got extended-confirmed-protected, I managed to place it here myself. Appreciated the help regardless. XTheBedrockX (talk) 23:39, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
 * @Vladimir.copic Sure. Maybe changing the first line from:
 * "War crimes have been committed during the Tigray War that started in November 2020"
 * to
 * "All sides of the Tigray War have been repeatedly accused of committing war crimes since it began on November 2020.[existing citations] A September 2022 report by the UN found evidence of widespread "war crimes and crimes against humanity" committed by all parties, including the Ethiopian government, as well as the Tigray People’s Liberation Front (TPLF)."[1][3]
 * In Claims of starvation as a method of warfare:
 * A UN commission has stated they had "reasonable grounds to believe" that the Ethiopian government was using deliberate starvation as a war tactic.[2]
 * In Removal of means of survival:
 * In September 2022 UN report, the Ethiopian government, along with forces allied with them, engaged in deliberate efforts to deny the Tigray region "access to basic services [...] and humanitarian assistance," leaving 90% of Tigrayan residents in dire conditions. It called on both the federal government and the TPLF to let these services resume without hinderance.[1][2] XTheBedrockX (talk) 05:53, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Maybe also a mention of the Dedebit airstrike in Airstrikes, since the UN commission here concludes this was most likely a war crime (which Human Rights Watch has also described it as). XTheBedrockX (talk) 06:02, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

cluster bomb claim
per my edit description:

"removed the claim about cluster bombing for now. I've searched around, and this person genuinely seems to be the only one claiming this, and no other reliable news or human rights orgs seem to mention this. Based in this, it's hard to judge the veracity of it." XTheBedrockX (talk) 21:45, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Merge proposal
The new article Tigray Genocide appears to be a shorter duplicate of this article. I propose that it be merged into this one 2A00:23EE:1478:6AAC:D41C:52FF:FE2C:4707 (talk) 06:47, 9 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Definitely in favour of potentially merging. The infobox there, I'm less sure of, but the sources we could certainly use. XTheBedrockX (talk) 23:47, 16 August 2023 (UTC)