Talk:Warcraft/Archive 2

What happened to all the Warcraft Extended Universe articles?
I remember there being a very extensive network of Warcraft EU articles. Where did they all go?? I know there were tons of accurate articles on Warcraft, lists of races, of characters, of everything, but now I can't find any of it. I can't find any deletion logs either. And now I'm finding that the only remaining article on the Warcraft EU is short and has errors as obvious and disheartening as stating that Azeroth is a planet of the Twisting Nether (which is a dimensionless realm serving solely as the birthplace and home of all original evil in Warcraft). Where did it all go? Can someone point me in the right direction? I type in Illidan or Twisting Nether and get nothing, not even redirects. Search only pulls up this page and the articles on the games themselves. Absolutely nothing remains of the immense and respectable resource of Warcraft Universe articles. There used to be a compendium of information on Warcraft worlds and minute details and side-plots and character information and history and lore. Now the entire breadth and scope of the extensive Warcraft Universe on Wikipedia is gone. There used to be obscure facts and backgrounds I could only find on Wikipedia and very rarely elsewhere. There's even a large collection of broken links left behind in the articles on the games themselves, look. Almost all of the non-broken links are just redirects to this pathetic page. Try Draenor. My last memory of an article is a decently long and detailed one on the Twisting Nether being deleted because it was "dark and scary." What happened to them all? They most definitely did NOT converge. It's all just disappeared.

There was an article that must have been at least 10 printed pages on the races of Warcraft alone, including the more obscure races like the Satyr and Draenei, with a picture and extensive section on each. (Draenei were obscure at the time, existing only in minor plot, they didn't make any game appearances until WoW.) Now I find nothing but a virtually non-existent 140-word section on races. It doesn't begin to compare.

Can someone tell me what happened? Have I just lost my mind? Was there some epic deletion craze resulting from a change in rules? Was there some malfunction of Wikipedia servers? This seems unlikely, they'd seemingly converge and are seemingly immune to corruption considering modern fall backs. I believe I missed something big.

No I'm not thinking of wowwiki, this was definitely here before World of Warcraft. LieAfterLie (talk) 04:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

seriously, i have the same issue, i cant find any old pictures, photos and anything else, but ive gone to anime info, and nothings been changed in months. WTF happened to WoW? Grimreape513 (talk) 20:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

No LieAfterLie, you're not going mad I too have found the same thing happening and am quite disheartened by it. The whole Warcraft Universe (minus this very poorly done page) appears to be gone with no logs to tell the tale or revert back to.

A shame really, I too have loved coming to the Wikipedia for quick references to virtually every subject and Warcraft was definitely one of them.

I'm sure a solution will present itself and we can get back to reading.

~Alecterum~ Alecterum (talk) 07:30, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yup, they were all removed for non-notability in the real world (though that's debatable for certain characters), and the AFDs were more successful due to the existence of WoWWiki. WikiProject Video games/Deletion Archive has some links. One silly thing that occured is that several were removed on the basis of the List of characters existing, which then itself got removed. However, such is the way of the world. Come to WoWWiki :) Kirkburn (talk) 21:52, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I'll come to WoWWiki if you do something about certain users (including at least one administrator) whose opinion of their own insight far exceeds the reality. There seems to be an actual resistance to quality control there. —Qit el-Remel (talk) 19:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * All the articles were AFDed by the user IAmSasori. He's undertaken some sort of purge against fancruft though as a self-proclaimed Naruto-fanboy he has not touched the many Naruto articles. Though I'm not a Warcraft fan, I realize the series' contribution to the fantasy genre (such as a re-imagining of orcs, night elves and so forth). My suggestion is that the articles are rebuilt using information from WoWWiki. However you should avoid dwelling on game-elements and instead focus on story elements.(Demigod Ron (talk) 05:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC))


 * One very stupid thing I saw that came up on the AFDs was people saying there was a lack of citable sources ... apparently they didn't find any of the stuff listed on wowwiki:WoWWiki:Book citation index (not that that helps real world notability). Kirkburn (talk) 10:02, 17 December 2007 (UTC)


 * If you know why they were deleted then you can bring them back, right? The articles also exist on Answers.com although that may not be very helpful except as a reference. (Demigod Ron (talk) 17:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC))
 * The articles on Answers.com are not the same content and are nearly as poor as the material at WoWWiki. —Qit el-Remel (talk) 19:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't have the will to bring them back, nor is it likely to happen, as everyone will just point to WoWWiki which has much better articles on the topics anyway. Kirkburn (talk) 18:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Actually, WoWWiki's articles are nowhere near comparing to the ones here that were deleted. There may be some mismanagement and frivolous editing at Wikipedia, but it's much worse at WoWWiki.  (I could name names...but I won't.)
 * IMHO, IAmSasori needs to learn about a little thing called consistency. If fancruft is to go untouched elsewhere, the articles should be brought back.  —Qit el-Remel (talk) 01:13, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't understand, why deleting good articles is good for wikipedia. There may be a WowWiki, but how should I find it if I don't know about it? Search wikipedia so hard, that I find this discussion? I've found it by accident. Again - what is fancruft? I'm not native English speaker, but from what I can find cruft is something of poor quality, combined with fan - then a poor quality page created by fans, relevant only to a small group of people? I can agree that such pages may be not needed, but extended warcraft pages were really good source of information, and this is what an encyclopaedia should be, doesn't it? If I'm mistaken, then please someone explain to me, why such articles are deleted. Ggaaron (talk) 10:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Ggaaron said: "I don't understand, why deleting good articles is good for wikipedia."
 * That makes two of us. (And yes, that is the proper definition of "fancruft"—poor-quality material which is only of any interest to fans.  The Warcraft material could have used some pruning, but it was much more in the domain of "good articles" than that of "fancruft.")
 * Apparently, one guy (who dismisses almost everything Warcraft-related as "non-notable fancruft," but mysteriously doesn't seem to mind all of the Narutopedia-duplicate material on this site) started a bunch of Warcraft AfDs. And somehow, almost all of them managed to go through—likely because people who might have otherwise countered them (myself included) simply weren't aware that anything was going on.
 * Of course, if some administrator could send me the page sources, I'd be more than happy to cherry-pick, consolidate, and re-build the material. —Qit el-Remel (talk) 01:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to mention I disagree with Qit el-Remel's opinion of WoWWiki, but have moved that part of the discussion to a more relevant talk page. Kirkburn (talk) 09:26, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I've never heard of Naruto except here in this Talk page. Can I create AfDs specifying WP:NOTE? - Denimadept (talk) 19:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
 * It'd make just as much sense. —Qit el-Remel (talk •  contribs) 02:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't really want to stoop to that level. - Denimadept (talk) 21:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I said that it'd make just as much sense, not that it'd actually be a good idea. ;) —Qit el-Remel (talk  •  contribs) 15:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Where to find the old World of Warcraft pictures.
Hey, im just wondering, since i used to use the pictures on the WoW section alot, are they still IN wikipedia anymore, or are they completely removed, because i could use them right now.Grimreape513 (talk) 20:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Opinion: the new world of warcraft page is a mess.
Ok, the links that go FROM the page are useless, like when you click undead and trolls, it links to jrr tolkien and D&D, which is completely useless when your trying to find out information about the race and game. The entire page has become a complete mess, and while ive browsed through some other things, ive noticed that a couple of articles havent been edited in years, like D&D, Tolkien, Naruto, and a bunch of other anime crud. All the World of Warcraft page has now is a bunch of links, and misguided information. Is there anyway we can bring some old stuff back? World of Warcraft was one of the few reasons i even came to wikipedia, excluding lovecraft and the update of video games and movies. I like the old format better than i did this one we have now, with i repeat, MISGUIDED LINKS and links that do not go anywhere.Grimreape513 (talk) 20:09, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Look above your first post; there's already discussion on that very subject.
 * Yes, there should be some consistency as to how fancruft is handled. But it seems there really isn't, and that there's little to no effort to establish any.  —Qit el-Remel (talk) 06:13, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Extended Links cleanup
I've removed the link to WarcraftAdvisor.com from Extended links, added 04:30, 9 October 2007 from IP 70.137.151.239. Lookinng at all submissions from that IP indicates purely adding vaguely related sites to the topic in question. I'm not sure if it needs any further investigation, but I think it's surplus to requirements.

Any thoughts? Gazimoff (talk) 23:47, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Go to www.wowwiki.com
This article sucks since it got shredded by Mr. IAmGay (I mean, 'Sasori') and WoWWiki is so much better. PLEASE go there and check it out. Btw my username there is 'Wakata'

Enjoy! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.85.120.61 (talk) 00:00, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a taskforce working on redeveloping Warcraft-related articles. You can help out at WP:VG/WC. The taskforce is dedicated to developing concise and encyclopaedic articles on Warcraft backed up with reliable sources. Feel free to drop by and help out! Gazimoff Write Read 00:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Please don't use "gay" as an insult; it just makes you sound ignorant. And the superiority of WoWWiki is debatable. —Qit el-Remel (talk  •  contribs) 11:11, 29 April 2008 (UTC)


 * From what I can tell the WP:VG/WC is laser focused on World of Warcraft and seems to be leaving out Warcraft stuff before that and other non-WoW lore out of their work. Also it seems to be not much talk and even less action. So basically WP:VG/WC is mostly worthless. Also, Qitremel seems to make several disparaging remarks about WoWWiki without a single concrete piece of evidence to back up libelous remarks. --Intentionally unsigned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.18.130 (talk • contribs) 02:15, 1 August 2008


 * Oh, look...some anonymous coward is flinging personal attacks. I refer you to the definition of "libel," since you're clearly unfamiliar with it.  (Although I'm not even sure why I'm arguing with a troll—and I don't mean Darkspear—who's been blocked for disruptive edits and refusal to sign its posts.) —Qit el-Remel (talk  •  contribs) 22:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Still no evidence, Mr. "libel" flinger. I'm anonymous to disassociate myself Wikipedia and I'll stay that way as far as Warcraft-related stuff. --Intentionally unsigned (aka User:63.175.18.130) 21:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Reastablishing Articles.
We need to reastablish articles that where deleted, the new universe page is horrible, alot of good information god deleted and I can't find it anywhere. Years of work poof because one narutard had to decide "Well I hate warcraft so hah!"

Wonder if he is the one behind the massive merge with Starcraft too.Ripster40 (talk) 01:57, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Agreed; that guy's definition of "non-notable" appears to be "not my fandom." As to whether or not he's responsible for the Starcraft merge, it's easy enough to look it up.
 * Supposedly, the admins have the deleted material archived somewhere. However, I've asked for it a few times, to no avail. —Qit el-Remel (talk  •  contribs) 15:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)


 * The deleted did alot of damage, alot. Information that was sourced got thrown away and just did not appear, also when I try to look up Thrall I get a link to WoWwiki. They deleted the Thrall page, now I'm not happy.Ripster40 (talk) 20:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Forsaken, undead, blood elf
Why are the forsaken mentioned as being playable? In terms, they are just undead. The only difference is Sylvanas, the Dark Ranger. The rest of the units and heroes available to the forsaken are the same as normal Undead. Now if the availability of a Dark Ranger makes it a playable faction, the naga should be a playable faction as well. I don't see them anywhere. The same for the blood elfs, what is the actual difference between them and the high elfs? Only in name they are different. Mallerd (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmmmmm... cos they are playable in World of Warcraft? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.134.80.140 (talk) 20:24, 29 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yup, someone has been living under a rock. Forsaken are the undead playable race in World of Warcraft. --Intentionally unsigned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.175.18.130 (talk) 00:11, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

Refrences to real life
I'd like to start by apologizing if this is not the right forum to point this out, however, I was unsure whether or not posting it elsewhere would draw the attention of those most involved with the editing of this particular page. I noticed that in two seperate sections, in-game races were compared to real life cultures based solely on infrences made by individuals. The most prominent of which being, the claim that both the Humans and Night Elves are Gaelic, or otherwise modeled thereafter. I will, of course, spare you the details of my own observations.Now, I undersand that comparing any of the races to those that exist in real life is going to be completely subjective without Blizzard itself stepping in to admit what is based on whom, but I feel that I must object to two seperate races being catagorized as the same or similar because they fit a more medival mold than the others. Thank you (K1ngjab (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2008 (UTC))


 * This is not a forum, it's a talkpage to discuss article improvement. As such you posted in the right place. The passages you deleted constitute original research and probably POV as well which is against Wikipedia's guidelines. Good catch.--Fogeltje (talk) 14:03, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Playable races?
should these really be included? i mean, right now, the only ones listed are the races playable in WoW. and there are many other races that are playable in other games in the warcraft series. if this were to be a complete list, it would be huge. thats why i suggest that it just be deleted. --Late Leo (talk) 00:53, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * All the main races playable in all the games are listed, even War 1-3. Your point is a good one though; the section could be excised in favor of a paragraph to three on all the races (cited!), with the main eight in World of Warcraft relocated to gameplay of World of Warcraft, or possibly to Races of World of Warcraft or some such. Just a couple thoughts on it. --Izno (talk) 03:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Also since this is a Warcraft universe page rather than a world of warcraft page, the races shouldn't be categorized into Alliance vs. Horde because that is mainly a WoW invention, besides the horde in WC2 and the horde in World of Warcraft are completely different. Tigerhk3 (talk) 15:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Tigerhk3 has a great point. What originally drew me here to comment, though, was the omission of the Undead Scourge as a playable race. They were most definitely playable in WC3. Why are the races divided up as if World of Warcraft is the only game in the series? Unicycle77 (talk) 21:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I definately agree. This is the Warcraft universe page not the World of Warcraft. I suggest just creting an entire page for the various races in the Warcraft universe. There is definatley plenty of info to create an entire page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.53.196.247 (talk) 20:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Maybe a separate "major factions" section could be added, with subheadings for the Alliance, Burning Legion, Sentinels, Horde and Scourge. IMO the Goblins, High Elves, Naga and Eredar should also be mentioned somewher, perhaps in a "major non-playable races" section. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 05:10, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

missing races
you only listed WoW playable races, what about Forest (AMANI!!!) Trolls, Goblins, and Ogres? warcraft (the series) is not limited to just WoW, theres three RTS games before it, one is called warcraft: orcs and humans, another is called, warcraft ii: tides of darkness, and another one some people know about is called warcraft 3: reign of chaos I dont know if you guys heard about these games but some of them were very popular in their time and they actually take place in the same unvierse and few many know it but theres actually some similarities between these three games and the world of warcraft game such as 1) they take place in the same world and 2) they have the same races 3) also the same people, and history 4) developed by the same company this isnt like a bootleg thing where bootleggers just made these three games based on a game that didnt come out yet it is actually blizzard (not activision blizzard) who made these three games and they made them before world of warcraft not as a lead-in but actually just to make the games they arent like prequals or anything so actually this article should be a little more broad because its not world of warcraft (series) its actually warcraft (series) so that should encompass more than just world of warcraft so I think that it should list more things and not even just races but theres other things too also possibly its maybe plausible that you could just remove this section completely because i think it should be on the world of warcraft article and not here at all because this is a world of warcraft section and not a section that references all of the races from the three previous games, warcraft: humans and orcs, warcraft ii: tides of chaos, and warcraft III: runes of darkness, as well as the world of warcraft popular online mmorpg role-playing game so it should be probably moved to that article okay? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.33.94 (talk) 04:03, 30 August 2008 (UTC) i apologiez about this page comment i did not realize there was another of these post comments above my cell there is in fact, if you check, another comment and discussion between more than four-five individuals about this very matter, and they discuss this matter very thoroughly and agree on the matter that this is not a world of warcraft page and that theres more than one game in this series. in fact, if you look up the definition of "series" on dictionary.com you will find that it is an old african word which means "flowing river", now the ancient africans used to call alot of people a flowing river because like a river (of water), you cannot get alot of people to stop (I suppose you could like stun them all but this is not something that you could do in ancient africa) so a series has to be at least a bunch of people or not people but rather like maybe some books or even a bunch of games, like we see in this article on wikipedia. it has four games in the series, warcraft 1: tides of war, warcraft 2: darkness falls, warcraft 3: the frozen reign and world of warcraft: the burning kruesade, now if you check, these first three games are in fact in the series and their playable races are not noted in this section so I think this section should be moved to the world of warcraft article as opposed to this article which is in fact about all four games in the series as a whole, also i apologize that i didnt sign my last comment i had to rush out of the house to get to work now i am at work making this comment so ih have to get bnack to work —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.33.94 (talk) 04:15, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * tHE poster above me has a point... it is obvious wikipedia is addicted to wow, lemme tell you something: it is not worth abandoning your wives and children to gain that extra level. it is not worth soiling all those socks just for that extra epic item... please Listen to the people who play the "RTS" (real time startergy) games in the "Warecraft series" TM(Actionvision Blizzard). If u haven't played a Game claled "Human Tower DEFENSE NARUTO!!!!! Fre DBZ skinz" you have not played Warcraft. Heres a little-known-fact: Vengince for Zooljin is actally a reference (we call the m"refs" in teh proffesinol world) to Warcrat 2: Ages of Bloodness. qed, Wikipedia. I dont know what that stands for, but Im using it anywasy. U feel scarred yet? U should. Teh RTS communtiy is springing back, baby!! We are teh Spearheads of the Revolution! (btw what do u guys think of the new wow expansion pretty cool right? im gonig to give my guy an afro!! lol!)Stripbolt (talk) 05:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

A point is that blizzard made all of the warcraft games..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.106.142.7 (talk) 17:04, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Article setup
This looks more like a game guide/advert for WoW than an encyclopedic reference. "Playable races"? Why not list all races instead? Where are the Undead from Warcraft III? The Naga? Pandarans? This is, after all, an article about the Warcraft series. I find the existance of this article in itself strange; the Lord of the Rings universe doesn't have an article. But this article is a shamble. It also contains very little referencing. Things I've never heard of like "The great dark unknown" and the "hellish place" aren't sourced. I'd like to see something about that added. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 03:10, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Orge, goblin...what happen to murlock? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frankyz (talk • contribs) 18:18, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

I have moved the race section,
to the WoW article. If it get's moved back, re-move it back. --DorilMagefont (talk) 05:13, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * I have reversed your move. Please discuss any controversial moves in advance of carrying them out. i'd particularly encourage you to use the mergefrom and mergeto templates to highlight your proposals in both articles. We recently removed very similar content from the World of Warcraft article due to it being unsourced. I would also urge you not to encourage editors to engage in edit warring. Many thanks,  Gazi moff  07:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Man why dont you do it
 * i only moved the fuckers because there are three longwinded sections on the talk page about moving this shit and nobody says that it needs to stay--71.101.33.94 (talk) 08:04, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Who says it should be moved? The Warcraft series is larger than just World of Warcraft, so in my eyes, the information should stay here.--Fogeltje (talk) 09:37, 14 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Problem is that we recently purged a lot of this exact same content out of World of Warcraft, as it was unsourced and unnotable material. Plus, there's a hell of a lot of information about the races that stem from the previous games in the series. The article needs extensive rewriting, but that doesn't mean we should just shift the content from one article to another instead of dealing with the problem. We also have a Warcraft taskforce where we try to work on articles together in order to make them work as a whole by agreeing on an approach before acting on it. The main priority shoud be looking for sources that discuss each of the races and their pros and cons from a fictional and reception perspective, along with other areas in the article. I agree it should encompass the non-player races as well and not just cover the playable ones. The main thing though is sourcing - without that, the content should be deleted, not just moved to another article. Hope this makes sense.  Gazi  moff  10:05, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no information in the article about races from the previous games. Its all from WoW. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 06:20, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added some non-WoW info and renamed the section to major races and factions. -- Gordon Ecker (talk) 01:33, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Draenei
Quoted from current version "'Velen was contacted by the Naaru, who escorted him (and the Eredar who rejected Sargeras's offer of great power to the Eredar in exchange for their loyalty), across the cosmos, in the Naaru's dimensional traveling vessel, Tempest Keep.'"

Wasn't Oshu'gun the Naaru's dimensional traveling vessel? I thought Tempest Keep was a prison. 65.42.26.190 (talk) 12:36, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Both are considered interdimensional traveling ships. Oshu'gun used in the flight from Argus, Exodar in the flight from Draenor. Tempest Keep is a Naaru 'citadel' with many uses, one of them being a prison. Exodar was a piece that was stolen and used to escape by the draenei.TheAdamant (talk) 19:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Adding a correction to my above statement. Tempest Keep was taken by the Illidari, then Exodar retaken and "flown" away to Azeroth. TheAdamant (talk) 20:11, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Night Elves vs Blood Elves
How are they related? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Defender Of Justice (talk • contribs) 02:23, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
 * highborne is how —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.101.33.94 (talk) 09:37, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

The Characters of Warcraft

 * Malfurion Stormrage - First of the Druids
 * Rexxar - Champion of the Horde
 * Sunwalker Dezco - Chieftain of the Dawnchaser Tribe
 * Shaohao - Last Emperor of Pandaria
 * Uther the Lightbringer - The First Paladin
 * Taran Zhu - Lord of the Shado-Pan


 * Vereesa Windrunner - Ranger-General of the Silver Covenant
 * Tyrande Whisperwind - High Priestess of Elune
 * Li Li Stormstout - The Wild Dog
 * Sunwalker Dezco - Chieftain of the Dawnchaser Tribe
 * Rexxar - Champion of the Horde
 * Gul'dan - Betrayer of the Orcs
 * Valeera - Sanguinar
 * Malfurion Stormrage - First of the Druids
 * Uther the Lightbringer - The First Paladin
 * ShaohaoLast - Emperor of Pandaria
 * Taran Zhu - Lord of the Shado-Pan
 * Varian Wrynn - High King of the Alliance
 * Anduin Wrynn - Crown Prince of Stormwind
 * Jaina Proudmoore - Leader of the Kirin Tor
 * Garrosh Hellscream - Former Warchief of the Horde
 * Sylvanas Windrunner - The Banshee Queen
 * ThrallWorld - Shaman
 * Vol'jin - Warchief of the Horde
 * Baine Bloodhoof - High Chieftain of the Tauren
 * Lor'themar Theron - Regent Lord of Quel'Thalas
 * The Lich King - Lord of the Scourge
 * Illidan Stormrage - The Betrayer
 * Deathwing - The Destroyer
 * Lei Shen - The Thunder King
 * Wrathion - The Black Prince
 * Chen Stormstout - Legendary Brewmaster
 * Moira Thaurissan - Queen-Regent of the Dark Iron Clan

More game news about Warcraft and other games.