Talk:Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos/Archive 1

FA nomination
what's the chance of this topic being nominated for good or featured article (good i think) it reads quite well and there's no strategy fluff all around it like other gaming pages jackchen123

Professional players
The blurb about professional players was deleted from the page, but I'm not sure why. There are a number of professional Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne players worldwide. It was tagged for deletion based on the concern of notability. But what do we have to do to establish this? There are numerous websites discussing the professional multiplayer scene. It should at least be mentioned. For example, 4K.Grubby was just elected the world's best Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne player. That's really cool! Where was the link to Grubby's Wikipedia page? Csc14us 04:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Split RoC and TFT?
Should this be moved to Warcraft III: The Reign of Chaos and be adapted into a disambiguation page that links to Reign of Chaos and Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne? Just a suggestion... ugen64 03:59, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)


 * No. They are not big enough subjects unto themselves to warrant seperate articles. I know there is a seperate article for Frozen Throne, but, IMHO, I don't think it'll ever grow past it's stub state and should be merged into the main article. &mdash;Frecklefoot 15:55, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes. Not only do they have enough subject matter they have too many differences and inconsitencies to include them on the same page. In Warcraft III: The Reign of Chaos it should say "Each race has a choice of 3 heros to choose from", then you would only have to turn around and negate that when talking about the Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne because 4 heros now exist. Instead of a detailed list of what changed (which is too long) the Warcraft III: The Reign of Chaos should denote a sequel came out and link to Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne page.&mdash;dwp 10:48, May 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes. Looks like this question has gone unanswered for about a year, so I figured I would dig it up again. In my opinion the Warcraft III page should be renamed/moved to Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos and then there should be a separate Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne and all related information should be split out into that page.  My justifications for the rename is that there are many other game pages which list the name as the full game title.  And since there are technically two different games which use the Warcraft III name (Reign of Chaos and The Frozen Throne), this would allow a clean separation between the two.  Warcraft III would redirect to Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos so there wouldn't be a problem there.  And Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos would make reference to its expansion Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne so I don't think there would be a need for a disambiguation page.  My justification for splitting out the TFT stuff in the current War3 page into it's own page is that like dwp mentions above, there truly is a ton of stuff that is different between the two games.  There are massive amounts of new features, units, and interface changes.  (Note also the comment below about balance changes between the two)  We don't want to clutter the War3 page with two differing versions of the various information.  In regards to Frecklefoots comment that they are not big enough subjects, I contend that they are big enough subjects, and I have volunteered to flesh out the pages with information and images.  Anyways, since no one has responded to this question for about a year (and the "voting" is now 3 to 1), barring any objections, I will go forward with this action in a few days. x3rx3s 07:06, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * No. I like having one master Warcraft III page, a sort of "portal" to the major WCIII content on Wikipedia.  But, I do like the idea of having separate pages describing each multiplayer campaign.  That would help to make the main page shorter and less overwhelming for casual readers.Csc14us 08:39, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Yes, Frozen Throne needs its own page. The Warcraft 3 page is so long as it is already, plus so much needs to be added to both the WC3 and TFT sections we should make them separate pages.Spazm 17:42, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

balance
It's also important to note that Reign of Chaos and the Frozen Throne have significant balance differences. The attack type versus armor type is completely different for each version, and this changes strategies for each.


 * they are both 40 patches away from a decent balance and you want to state that theres even a balance there. The only differences is that in ROC: UD doesnt build slaughterhouses, the gem of true sight is sold at markets, the UD town hall supertower actually matters (and not uber-nerfed as in TFT), the game is slower and the maps are different also. Nothing more than that (their armors might look different, but they are the same, the names are different, thats all).

actually there's a lot of differnce:


 * level 7+ creeps usually have chaos damage
 * player owned shops
 * 1 additional hero
 * 1 extra spellcaster for every race
 * tomes' effects activate instantly when picked up
 * new armor (unarmored) and attack (chaos, hero, magic)
 * neutral heroes
 * town scrolls havs casting delay
 * neutral shops
 * additional upgrages for units

Merge material
Could someone please merge the following content with this article? Thanks. -- Graham ☺ | Talk 16:54, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sylvannas Windrunner is a fictional character introduced in the Blizzard game Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos. She was the leader of the elven defenders of Quel'Thalas, who initally fought against the Death Knight and former Prince of the Kingdom of Lordaeron, Arthas Menethil. Her forces were driven back through the three elfgates by the merciless Undead and she finally fell outside the elven capital. Despite her pleas for a quick death, Arthas raised her as a banshee after slaying her. She is not seen again in the game, and acts as a normal unit but with a different name during that mission.

Sylvannas reappears in Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne in the first mission of the Undead campaign. She has been upgraded to a Dark Ranger, a hero unit. She assists Arthas in his return, slaughteirng the hapless humans as they try to escape from their villages. Shortly after this mission, Arthas's powers begin to fail, and his grasp over her mind dissapears. Sylvannas and some of her fellow freed banshees plots a trap and attempts to assasinate Arthas outside the fallen city of Loredaeron, but their attempt is foiled by the Lich Kel'Thuzad. The remainder of the Undead mirrors both her rise to power and destruction of the Dreadlords in the Plaguelands, and Arthas's flight to the Frozen Throne to defend the Lich King against the assault of Illidan.

In her war against the Dreadlord, Sylvannas recruits many of the residents of the countryside. Included are gnolls, ogres and bandits; all conviently placed to be possessed by banshees. The greatest addition to her army is Varimthras, a Dreadlord who promised his loyalty in return for his life. As well, nearing the end of her campgain she was able to enilst the aid of an Alliance squad of humans, led by the Grand Marshal Garithos. Using Varimthras's knowledge she launched at double headed attack on the base of the Dreadlord Balnazzar at Lordaeron. It finilized with her ordering Varimathras to kill Balnazzar as a final test of his loyalty. As well she betrayed Garithos, having Varimthras kill him too. With this victory she proclaimed herself and the freed Undead the Forsaken, and took up residence in the Ruins of Lordaeron, eventually transforming it into the Undercity.

In World of Warcraft she is the leader of Undead forces, still called The Forsaken. She and Varimathras lead from The Undercity, after allying themsleves with Thrall and The Horde to war against the Alliance. What else has occurred in the years between the end of The Frozen Throne and World of Warcraft is still shrouded in mystery, however.


 * The text has been added to list of Warcraft characters.  &mdash;Lowellian (talk)   03:59, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

one part of the newest diff rubs me the wrong way... about night elf not harvesting lumber efficiently. while i could see how that could be true, don't night elf players end up having an excess of wood over most players or is that just me?


 * Yes, because they don't run out of trees and/or have to harvest trees really far away from buildings. – ugen64 02:50, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

Custom Maps
There are 2 internal links to Defense of the Ancient. DOTA and DotA, the first is complete in my opinion. The material in those is enough for a different article. --vininim 03:38, 30 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I believe that a link to the official Battle.net custom game section would be appropriate for this section. Also, the comment about Defense of the Ancients in this section "Defense of the Ancients -very popular among weaker warcraft players" is a POV statement which I believe should be deleted. First, no comment about any other map in this section makes a POV derogatory reference towards a player's skill. Secondly, DOTA is much more complicated than many of the other custom map types in this section, such as dodgeball or sheep tag. If any comment should be made, it should either be that DOTA is the most popular custom map variant, or that DOTA Allstars was the first map to be inducted into blizzard's Battle.net hall of fame.


 * This section needs to calm down. If you want to add more custom maps, make a case for why they should be included. This article needs a re-write badly and almost none of the custom maps should be mention, save DotA. Even then, the vast majority of people contributing to multi-player articles need to learn how to write better.


 * If we mention one popular one we have to mention them all. Dota is popular now, but i remember a time (this was back before all the pro gamers left in version 1.14) that this wasn't the case. Dota has always been around, but their was a time when The Great Strategy, Tides of Blood, Footmen Frenzy and Spellcraft where all more popular (spellcraft being the only one whose popular spree was short lived). Dota is very popular now, only because its popular amongst players not good enough to play regular WC3 and all the good players left! I for one despise dota, just because its so easy. all you need is a couple good items, and BAM, you can take on all the heros on the enemies side at once. I for one would like to mention how Dota's popularity didn't get so intense until all the good players left WC3 (if you don't understand why, your not a good player so don't bother sayign "but im still on!") in 1.14, but it would be very biased. DurotarLord 11:44, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding War3 Units
I just wanted some feedback on whether or not we should either merge the existing unit articles (Crypt Fiend, Dragonhawk Rider, etc) with the umbrealla articles (Undead Scourge, Human Alliance, etc) and give a synapse of the units there or we compile a list of all the units (I wouldn't mind doing this) and put them in their own sub categories. -Derktar 02:17, May 8, 2005 (UTC)

ETS
Although Enfo's Team Survival has my name on it. Most versions out there are not created by me. I created the initial versions and concept, but haven't worked on it in two years. -Enfo

Custom maps list
I've just cleaned up (i.e. removed most of the superfluous comments) and alphabetized the list of custom maps. It may need more work, though; I'm not sure every map listed there is exactly popular (some I've never heard of), and there are undoubtedly some more popular types unlisted. Many also don't have associated pages. Heptameron 19:06, 7 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I added some genre descriptions for some of the popular map types, I would have put the corresponding maps under thei right genre but I'm out of time. -DungeonM

I would suggest moving this entire section to it's own article, right now it's just makes the WC3 article heavy. Havok (T/C/c) 11:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)


 * Agree. It along with the section Modding describing the Editor.203.198.23.69 18:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed some biased comments and cleaned it up by removing some derivative maps (such as Dracula's Curse which derives from Vampirism). Also added a few others, such as Pyramid Escape and Spellcraft, which, while not common at the moment, were rather popular a year or two back. 203.59.240.222 13:30, 15 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I've edited a recently added Sheep Tag section, by rewording it and placeing it in alphebetical order. It is similar to Vampirism and Dracula's Curse, by that they are both games involving a smaller number of 'taggers' that tag the larger number of 'builders'.203.198.23.70 18:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Why can I no longer find Vampirism in the list? Vampirism is very popular right now and has been for a while - I haven't seen a game of sheep tag in a very long time. I find it odd that sheep tag has a section while not even mentioning other tags (tree tag) and not even vampirism... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Wyvern King (talk • contribs) 18:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC).

I've removed the first paragraph. It seems quite irrelevant to the section. I believe it was refering to Melee maps, not Custom maps.203.198.23.98 18:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Mergeing Dragonhawk Rider, Witch Doctor and Pandaren Brewmaster
Unofficial vote of Merge, Keep, Delete

Pandaren Brewmaster
Firstly we have a section already on the Pandaren race at Races in the Warcraft universe this is exclusively an article on the Warcraft III unit. Personally I think the article should be deleted with a redirect, but if someone wants to make a section in the Warcraft III article about all the Warcraft III units themselves, then here is the opportunity. Personally I think thats its unnecessary, but by all means offer your oppinion. - UnlimitedAccess 06:38, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Merge with Pandaren race section.203.198.23.98 18:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

personally i think we should just make a section on the units in Warcraft

Witch Doctor
Same as above but with no Redirect, because 99% of the people who type in "Witch Doctor" shouldnt find themselves at the Warcraft III page. :) - UnlimitedAccess 06:38, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Delete. :-) --Ihope127 21:16, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Dragonhawk Rider
The dragonhawk rider is not important enough to have its own article and isnt a notable group or race that appears in the Warcraft Lore so I think doesnt even belong in Races in the Warcraft universe or Organizations in the Warcraft universe. - UnlimitedAccess 06:38, 13 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Agree. Dragonhawk riders are very minor members of the Warcraft universe. I was kind of surprised myself to see it listed under Warcraft organizations ... --Arabani 07:00, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Well im just trying depserate to get rid of these three articles, I first thought I could do that by merging them with Warcraft Organizations... but changed my mind, I may remove it... - UnlimitedAccess
 * Yeah, just delete them. I don't think Wikipedia needs articles on units from a game ... a article on ALL of Warcraft III's units would probably be fine, but definitely not separate articles for each. --Arabani 19:50, 19 September 2005 (UTC)

--user:Dr khan of the universaty of sudenims they are the most yousles unint in the intire game the orc peons or the night elf druid of the claw are beter18:52

Art Tools and other modding apps
it seems this article didnt have any information about the blizzard art tools or even a good expansion on the world editor. I added a section about modding that includes these, but im not sure about the grammar/wording of it...--ThrashedParanoid 02:16, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Undead Campaign
I'm pretty sure the city destroyed in the Undead campaign was not Trisfal, the Human capital, but instead the capital of Dalaran, a nation boardering Lordereon.


 * I thought Dalaran was the wizard's city
 * Dalaran is more of a city-state than an actual nation, I believe. And yes, you're right, it was the wizard's city. The Undead did indeed destroy Dalaran in the campaign. --Arabani 23:43, 25 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Yes, I believe Mannoroth destroyed it with his Demon Magic.


 * Negative. It was Archimonde who used his magic to destroy it. --Kaziel 22:57, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

Overview?
What happened to the overview? It disappeared a week or two ago. Is there any reason for me not to restore it? --Polkapunk 19:16, 18 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, please restore it. It appears to be a work of vandalism that no one reverted: . --Muchness 19:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Quotations
Hi! Is it true that one of the Dwarf characters in Warcraft 3 can be made to say 'This Warhammer cost me 40K!', in reference to the two Games Workshop main universes - which may or may not have had some influence over both Warcraft and Starcraft? And if so, would it be a relevant quote and context to add to the article? --Nerroth 18:37, 15 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I seem to remember hearing something like that by a Gryohon Rider, but I'm not sure. I don't believe that any quotes are really relevant, but add this one if you wish.- Discombobulatortalk 07:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

A section on quotations could go on indefinitely, especially with the recent addition about the Ice Trolls. I'm not even sure if it's true. We should shorten it down to just saying that Blizzard likes including quotes, with one example, and be done with it. Really useful and accurate information could then be moved over to the WoWWiki since Wikipedia doesn't really need to have all these quotes in it. --Htmlism 14:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Removal of lingo used on Battle.net
Re this edit: I removed the list of Battle.net lingo because lists of definitions are not appropriate according to WP:NOT policy. If the consensus is that this list is needed, it should be relocated to the Battle.net article. --Muchness 18:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

More merges
I stumbled across Defense of the Ancients and Defense of the Ancients: Allstars, which are extensive gaming guides to mods of Warcraft III. Obviously, Wikipedia is not the place for detailed gaming guides. I also scratched my head over why the articles existed in the first place. I would recommend that any useful information from those articles be added to Custom Maps section and the original articles deleted. --Habap 17:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Oh, no. When I looked at the custom maps list, I see there are like 20 articles on WCIII maps. This can't be real. --Habap 17:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I do really think that Dota Allstars shall be separated article. It's much more popular then Warcraft itself. If you like to merge, let merge Warcraft to Dota but not vice a verca 80.242.64.3 10:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Surely you can't be serious. --Habap 14:41, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * The thought of merging an entire game's article into an article on a custom map seems ridiculous, to say the least. However, merging all these custom map articles into the Warcraft III article makes much more sense. --Arabani (Talk ∞ Contribs) 17:53, 30 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Dota should get a seperate article, because it is popular enough. However, all of these custom map articles are ridiculous.--Kopaka649 00:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)


 * I've posted a comment on the Warcraft Portal talk page about this. Those articles are so detailed and unencyclopedic, yet there are dozens of them. I hesitate to comment as the two articles I mention are only the tiop of an iceberg. Isn't there a WC wiki out there somewhere that all this could be transwiki-ed to? --Habap 15:23, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I do not think this article is the right place to put them. I suggest a paragraph here, explaining the populatrity of custom maps, with a "see more" link to a custom maps article. --Falcorian (talk) 17:12, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Dota is quite popular Warcraft III mod (I am saying mod, and not the map, as I feel it describes it better), more popular than many other games that have seperate articles. Grujah

DotA, while being a mod to Warcraft III, is played instead of it's parent game on many international tournemants, and has in some ways overshadowed the original game. Certain other widely played mods (EotA comes to mind) should stay, too, but most of the other articles should be deleted, and the red letter list of custom maps pruned. - Discombobulatortalk 10:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Merging DotA with Warcraft III seems to be like merging Counter-Strike with Half-Life... both are extremely popular mods that dominated WON/Bnet/Steam servers. xertnevnI 10:10, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with xertnevnI. DotA has eclipsed normal Warcraft in terms of popularity on Battle.net servers. They should not be merged. asphyxe8 09:18, 11 April 2006, (UTC)


 * OK, I have removed the merge tags. The articles are, however, not referenced and I'm pretty sure that none of this information has been posted anywhere else. If that is the case, it is all original research and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. Of course, if we can find links that verify the information and include them in the articles (even if we just start with links to forum posts on the game), then we can keep everything. There is a fair amount of work to be done here. Also, it may be prudent to remove some of the articles on custom maps that really are not notable. --Habap 11:39, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Time
One part says a game of Warcraft takes 30 minutes, while Starcraft taking seven to eight minutes and warcraft can take an hour. this should be removed because it has nothing to do with the article, i have played many 2hour starcraft games, and some people play longer or shorter.

Tactics, shouldn't be there...?
I get the idea that the Tactics subsection isn't important for the article, and as Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not a game guide... Maybe it should be deleted? Torte 07:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I aggree with you

Warcraft Custom Maps
I think there should be an article for Warcraft Custom Maps as it is a major feature of the game, sometimes rivaling the popularity of the original maps created by Blizzard in online play. Recently many articles have been put up for deletion due to notability and verification concerns. I think that there should be a custom map article giving information about custom maps. This would cut down on the Warcraft III article size, as well as negate the need for entire articles on maps that can be explained in a paragraph or two. See some discussion admist the comments on the most recent afdl for Footmen Wars. Altair 17:43, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Custom Maps Section Significance
The custom maps section should elaborate on the scripting and modding capabilities built into the games which are basically unseen in any other game (or anything, for that matter). The game's built in modding system itself allows for the creation of new and innovative games and even non-game systems and simulations, even with the ability to change models and artwork.

The individual map type sections are clunky and somewhat unfitting in the article and should probably be only mentioned as examples or in elaboration of the trends of maps that have been created in Warcraft. If seen fit, a seperate article detailing the major map and game types should be created, but a detailed list of them is not fitting here, even for just a few types. The system that allows for the creation of the maps that have already been made is much more significant than anything that has yet been made with it and should definitely be detailed in this article. Serialized 18:44, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Advanced Melee AI
There was a recent edit by 194.250.20.206 to include a link to a website which is about advancing the AI in Warcraft. I'm not sure this merits inclusion. I'm not removing it, yet. Currently looking up policies about the threshold for external links.--Htmlism 20:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Upon review of the website in question, I've decided that the link should be kept. The website seems to be a valuable resource, albeit for a specific part of the game. Only the link text and description were cleaned up.--Htmlism 21:31, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Removal of some external links
I went ahead and removed some of the external links which did not need to be here. Wikipedia isn't a link farm. Links should be kept to a minimum. Bgold4 12:25, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Question
To anyone that knows, me and another at wowwiki.com dont agree on what orc it is on the orc cover of Reign of Chaos; he says its Thrall (idk why) and I say its Hellscream cause Thrall doesnt have a beard + Thrall's eyes are blue.

What do you guys think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.229.97.187 (talk) 05:28, 20 December 2006 (UTC).

"Innovations"
I'm not entirely comfortable with calling the hero system an "innovation", considering Warlords Battlecry came out three years earlier with a similar hero system. Yes, the exact quote is "innovations [...] over the previous games in the series" but "innovation" implies original creativity. Would I be called "innovative" if I took a car that didn't have air conditioning and built my own air conditioner for it? No, because car air conditioners aren't a novel idea. Thus, in this case I think "improvement" is a more accurate word. Don't get me wrong; I love Blizzard games, but credit where credit is due. Warlords did "RTS heroes" first, and Blizzard's version simply wasn't different enough to qualify as "innovative." (Their commitment to game balance, storyline and overall "polish" *would* qualify as innovative, though.) Lode Runner 02:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Marketing jargon. Blizzard's marketing department is a bunch of nuts. If I remember correctly, they even try to coin "Role Playing Strategy". --Voidvector 02:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Character lines
I think the part about the references characters make to movies should be either deleted or moved into a new article. It really doesn't fit in here, goes on way too long, and most of it isn't even relevant to the overall play of the game. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.212.136.111 (talk • contribs).


 * I disagree. It shows the integration of popular culture into the game and is very significant as a rather unique feature of the Warcraft games. Whether it is relevant in-game or not is irrelevant to it being in Wikipedia. Shrumster 20:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Tower Defense Merge
Other than a few derivative flash games, is there any evidence of notability of "Tower defense" outside some WC3 play, or for that matter are there any references from reliable sources to support whats in that article?--Crossmr 06:29, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * tower defense is also in games like starcraft —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.83.83.233 (talk • contribs).
 * Well under which game was it first created? It all becomes moot if nothing in the article can be sourced though.--Crossmr 14:56, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The gameplay concept is not Warcraft-specific and can be used with any RTS. Flash game: http://novelconcepts.co.uk/FlashElementTD/ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 202.180.88.155 (talk) 09:54, 14 January 2007 (UTC).
 * Yes that's been raised, my question was: Where did the game play style originate? Did it originate as a Starcraft map, or a warcraft 3 map or something else entirely? Because that is the parent article this would belong in.--Crossmr 15:46, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * While there may have maps in Sarcarft that would be considered TD in retrospect, Tower Defense as an publically used identifier for the genre of game was really created within Warcraft 3. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.190.209.4 (talk) 20:21, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

I've seen tower defense tactics used in RTS games as old as Dune 2, although there it was more unintelligent AI that enabled it to work. Simply put any defense involving turreted defense against a likely route of approach is an example of this. I would strongly oppose the idea of merging this into the warcraft article.

Tower Defence is a mod. Currently, it uses the WC3 Engine, as well as many other engines which people see fit to make a tower defence for. If I wanted to (and had the knowledge) I could make a tower defence game as a modification for Half-Life 2 and use the Source Engine. My point, you wonder? If Tower Defence is a mod, then by all means it should have it's own wiki article, such as Counter-Strike: Source and Defense of the Ancients do. -Painezor T C 23:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * as a follow up to this, I'd also like to point out that many Tower Defence games are played in the Frozen Throne expansion, and as such merging it into the RoC article would make no sense as the game is also played there. It's easier having a seperate article. -Painezor T C 23:57, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
 * The existence of other articles is not an argument for Tower Defense to exist. It completely lacks sourcing and a google search doesn't readily reveal any. While DoTa actually had an article written about it, but the forum sourcing is a problem on that article. And while CS:S is a mod, its a mod officially done by the company that created the game and marketed as part of the package, that passes the notability requirements for software without issue.--Crossmr 15:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the point of merging the TD article with the WC3 one, given the sheer volume of games that TD maps can be found on. As said above, WC3 isn't even the first game to do it, which makes the idea of a merge between the articles kinda biased.watchwood 13:59, 23 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Because the article is has been completely unsourced for some time. Were a merge to occur basically nothing would actually be merged in at this point, it would simply be redirected to warcraft III where it was started and if someone wanted to include a small sourced paragraph about it they could. People aren't even sure where this started. In fact a google search doesn't show a single results in the first 10 pages that isn't simply a link to somewhere hosting maps or to the flash game called Tower Defense..  But if people aren't even sure where this started and no one can provide a source on it, then it can  really only just be deleted.--Crossmr 15:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Sheep tag
Sheep tag used to have a huge article containing a lot of good information. But now it only has a small section in the WC3: ROC section, although Sheep Tag is just as big, if not bigger in The throzen throne (TFT). And this information has been put here by (Sheep_Tag_king?) someone who playes ROC Sheep Tag and the information does not represent sheep tag in general. For example it does not even mention GosuSheep's line of maps who has been the most popular in TFT Sheep Tag for several years. My questions are: Could it be possible to make a new article for WC3 custom maps? And if not, should someone edit in information by TFT Sheep Tag in the WC3 ROC section (if this would be done it would be really hard to keep it this short, there are alot of diffrent versoins and styles of playing)? InvalidArgument 20:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Inventive Custom Maps
Does anybody think there ought to be another 'type' of custom map added to the list that encompasses random style games that push the editor to its limits? Not necessarily popular ones, but as an example: a few days ago I played a full, proper sudoku game. Arrow keys for moving the selection, chatting a single number for entering. It worked very well and it was as if it WC3 was made for it. Same goes for the Azeroth Grand Prix and Worm Wars, which also might deserve mentions for being 'homage' to MarioKart and Snake? Wyvern King 18:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion: Unit and custom game focus
The Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness article has extensive sections and tables which describe individual units and their respective strengths and weakenesses. Warcraft 3 has a MUCH wider array of battle units, (due to more species) but no corresponding tables. As well, most of this article relates to the campaign mode, but there is nothing on the custom single-player games, which more closely match the tactical battle scenarios found in warcraft 1 and 2. Would some people here (who have experience) be interested in helping create these tables? thanks. --Sm8900 02:12, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

What I removed
As follows:

Footmen Wars
Footmen Wars is a genre of WarCraft III maps in which each player is given a unit periodically, and the player must use these 'spawns' to conquer the other players, named after the base unit, the Footman. The ultimate goal is to destroy enemy's base which will stop their unit's spawning. Over time a wide variety of Heroes, Mercenaries, and much more were added to the game and have become a vital part of the gameplay. Footmen Wars is most commonly a battle between 4 teams each with 3 players. Each player starts off with a main base that will spawn a very basic infantry type. The players start off with gold which in most cases they must make the decision of buying a hero or "teching" where one upgrades one's main base, causing it to spawn more powerful units. Most use the four generic races, Human, Orc, Undead, and Night Elf. Some footmen wars may include side races of Demons, Murlocs, Naga, Trolls, and Kobolds. Some of the most popular Footmen-Wars Type maps are Footmen Frenzy and Ultimate Footmen.

Arena
A subtype of the AoS are Arena Maps in which the winner is determined by the number of heroes killed. In arena maps players will control a single hero, like AoS but the differences are that the teams aren't supported by waves of creeps. The game machanics will determine what kind of Arena map will be, some examples of hero arena maps are Anime fight, Angel Arena, Arena Nexus, Naruto Hero builder, Ninja vs Samurai, Custom Hero arena, etc.

On the other hand a hero survival (X Hero Siege, Hero Survival, Orc Gladiators, 7 Illidans, Legendary Gladiators, etc) are games where players must cooperate and fight together with waves of creeps until a timer goes to zero or certain event, or until they can handle the fight.

Tower Defense
The game usually consists of a group of players who attempt to stop waves of monsters from reaching a certain point. They build towers either in the way or on the sides of the path the monsters take. In some tower defense maps, there are races to choose from, each with their own unique towers. Many tower defenses have been based off the popular Wintermaul TD, and have adopted the term Maul in their name. Some examples would be Warcraft Maul, Videogame Maul, DBZ Maul, Movie Maul, Halo Maul, City Maul and Star Wars Maul. Other notable tower defense maps include (But not limited to) various versions of Mafarazzo TD, Green TD and Arkguil TD.

Another type of tower defense would be a hero defense (e.g. Enfo's Team Survival). Each player gets one Hero which has a variety of abilities used to stop the monsters. The goals of the hero defense are similar in objective as the tower defense - stop the monsters from reaching a certain point.

There are two modes in tower defenses: team and survival. Team mode is where all the players will work together to defeat the monsters, but if the monsters reach a certain point they all lose. While in survival mode, the players each work separately and have their own point to protect. If the monsters reach their own point, only that one player loses.

There are also competitive tower defense maps, such as line tower wars, in which players pay summon creeps to attack other players, while simultaneously defending their own base. In those types of tower defense maps, players receive income regularly, for example every 15 seconds, and summoning creeps increases their income.

(Counter) Wars
Players are divided into 2 teams and are able to build offensive, defensive, income and research type structures. Offensive structures automatically produce units to attack enemies, while defensive have some type of an attack or provide a boost to the army around them. The main goal is to produce a diverse army, which is able to exploit the enemy army weaknesses while covering its own, and destroy their main building. Most popular: Tales of Kaltazar: Boreal Conflict, Civilization Wars, Tech Wars, Sim City Wars. But the game that is most popular is Wintermaul Wars.

Sheep Tag
Players are separated into two teams of Sheeps and Shepherds. There is a fenced area in the center of the map, where the spirits of dead Sheep are trapped. When the game begins, Sheep spawn surrounding this area. Seconds later, Shepherds spawn within the area. The goal of the Shepherds is to trap all Sheep spirits within the central area, by attacking Sheep. The goal of the Sheep is to survive for 20 minutes. Sheep are able to build Farms instantaneously, which they manipulate to avoid the Shepherds. When a Sheep's spirit is trapped within the central area, another Sheep may risk itself for the trapped Sheep by attacking its spirit, whereupon the killed Sheep-spirit will revive. There are several differing versions of 'Sheep Tag'; one variation makes the Shepherd unique, and another makes the Sheep unique.

Strategy
Players are given a certain region and, depending on the map, are either divided into teams or engaged in a free-for-all. Usually a player starts with a capital, several heroes, an army to help defend his capital, and towers to protect them. There are also custom units that select armies can build in order to increase their forces. Popular settings for these maps are the Warcraft Universe, Lord of the Rings, and Medieval Europe. Popular maps of this genre include: Fall of Rome, Diplomacy, Castle Builder, Village Builder, Europa, Azeroth Wars, War of the Jewels, Lord of the Rings: Ring Wars and Tales Of Kaltazar: The Great War.

Hero Line Wars
In Hero Line Wars, players can pick from many heroes, each with its own abilities and spells (some are focused on area effect spells, that hit an entire area of creatures at a time, some are focused on melee, and some are focused on spellcasting from far or can create minions). Once a player picks his or her hero, they are transported to their own side of the map, along with up to 4 other teammates. Once there, the player has access to two shops, to buy potions and/or increase unit power. Players start off with an income of 20 gold, and may use their city hall (in the center of the map) to send creatures at the opposing force. The more monsters sent, the more income the player receives, making protection of the City Hall a priority. In all versions, the maximum level is over 100, often reaching 120 or even 300.

Zombie Survival
So called because the majority of games of this type pit the player against a horde of zombies. In zombie survival games, a group of usually 8-10 players (max) are put into an environment, usually an urban city, and forced to survive for a long period of time against attackers who are much weaker but much more numerous than them. Usually there will be a periodic "Boss Fight", in which players must use abilities or some kind of strategy in order to defeat a boss enemy, who is typically much larger and more powerful than the standard enemies of that map. Each player usually has a unique character with unique skills and abilities, but no character has any special advantages. Many of these games allow for saving and loading of characters, allowing for a thoroughly strengthened character over time. There are two kinds of "Saving/Loading" styles, one wherein it saves the actual character (Hero experience and skills), while others save the player's data (Player experience and player-won medals) The majority of these games mostly involve "camping", wherein players find a defensible spot with high visibility and construct defenses, then sit and kill attackers until a boss is spawned; the players must often run from their base, usually resulting in that base being destroyed, and then reconstruct a base somewhere else. Some of these games also feature missions, most notably Night of the Dead: Aftermath, which the players must complete in order to advance the game. Some may only be optional, providing experience for the player's character, which many consider valuable, no matter how small the amount. This also has a tendency to force players from their constructed bases, hightening the difficulty of the game. Most of these games also feature an ammunition system, wherein players must continually find ammunition in order to continue combat against their attackers. It is questionable as to where this genre started. However most point to Rural Zombie Outbreak. Games in this genre include Night of the Dead: Aftermath, Swat: Aftermath, the Dawn of the Dead Series, Night of the Dead I and II (unrelated to Night of the Dead: Aftermath), Rural Zombie Outbreak, and Fortress Outbreak I and II.

Orc Gladiators
Originally created by a gamer called PlagueBringerX Date: a few years before wc3 In hopes of making the orc internment camps self supportive, the human leaders decided to sanction public gladiator matches, in which orc slaves fight for their lives, to provide entertainment to mere peasants. In this game, each player begins with their own gladiator. They must choose from an variety of weapons including an axe, a scythe, a "double blade", a hammer, etc. The weapon they choose will be attached in their gladiator's hand and the player’s choice of abilities from then on is determined by the weapon they chose. It is a typical survive game where a few players must band their heroes together to survive large waves of enemies. Many new Items, including armor, can be purchased between rounds.

Spin this off to another page, maybe. But it doesn't belong here. Dåvid Fuchs ( talk / frog blast the vent core! ) 23:21, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I find all this information interesting and useful, and in fact have taken the time to read it fully. Is there a reason we need to delete it from the article? I vote that we keep it. Thanks. --Sm8900 18:12, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

WoWWiki
What is it usefull for? All Information is already on this article. Removed the links.

Criticism
"Some common criticism included the inability of the player to change the fate of Arthas' "turn to the dark side." Instead, the player "has to sit by as [Arthas] slides into insanity."

Is that really needed? It was an unfounded opinion of someone about something which hadn't been even resolved by the time it was written. Arthas doesn't gets redemption, right, but he serves his purposes. It isn't like his actions aren't justified by the character himself. I understand the need of having another view that doesn't praises the game, but that one is kind of dumb. Dskzero 16:39, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I vote to keep it. It chronicles a unique moment in Warcraft development./ thanks. --Sm8900 16:46, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Warcraft3 orc cover.jpg
Image:Warcraft3 orc cover.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 11:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

WCIII Campaign Transcripts
Does anyone know of a place where they have written transcripts of the dialogue from the WCIII campaign? (Sort of like these for halo) David Fuchs( talk ) 01:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

yeah look around on game faq. there was a good user created one —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Special:Contributions/ (talk)

Heres a link, since the other guy didnt supply http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/mac/file/563138/38456

Dibbitah Dan 07:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks a load... with this I can source the plot section. David Fuchs ( talk  ) 17:06, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Orcishhorde.jpg
Image:Orcishhorde.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 04:53, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Warcraft 3 characters
All, or at least almost all, of the Warcraft 3 characters have been nominated for deletion. These include Illidan Stormrage, Arthas, Furion Stormrage, and many others Members unaware of this may wish to put in nominations for "keep" before they all disappear.

DarthSidious 07:34, 4 November 2007 (UTC)DarthSidious

Merge in Hero article
Since its just a game mechanic of Warcraft III, it doesn't need its own article. -- Judgesurreal777 (talk) 21:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Zeroing
Please stop adding nonsense to this page. It has absolutely no relevance, no sources. Also, my last edit summary was incorrect, IP user used a slightly different IP so violation of 3RR cannot be proven. I posted warnings for editing tests on both user talkpage and a 3RR warning on the first.--Fogeltje (talk) 13:24, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:WarcraftIII orcshumans.png
Image:WarcraftIII orcshumans.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:WarcraftIII.jpg
Image:WarcraftIII.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:04, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Wc3 multi.png
Image:Wc3 multi.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 21:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)