Talk:Warlander

Article review
This article has potential to be excellent. However, it presently has a few concerns, too minor to derail a DYK, but problematic in the future if the lead editor wants to eventually get this to Good article status. The first is that the breed supporter's claims of great antiquity are a wee bit exaggerated (nothing new, we run into this a ton, see the talkpage at Sorraia for an example). To be encyclopedic, we can only go as far as actual evidence goes, not dipping into the realm of original research or fringe claims. So here, you bet, there is probably plenty of evidence that people in the 16th century crossed Friesians and Andalusians, but you can't really draw a direct line from those crossbreds to the modern Warlander; all you can really say, if you can find a source, is that modern breeders are trying a selective breeding tactic that was also used 400 years ago. Montanabw (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I am confused as to where the subject came from that anyone was inferring the Warlander of today was anything like the Friesian x Iberians of the past. The global studbook does not support this claim - http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/#/breed-history/4572174443 --Secret Squirrel 101 (talk) 04:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

The second concern, and why I hit one paragraph with a bunch of "dubious" tags, is the claims from the book by Maharaj are hard to verify and sound sketchy. The book apparently is offline only. If Google books has it, or if it appears online, it would be great to provide a URL. As it sits, I cannot locate this book even in worldcat, so not sure if it's a self-published work or not. This makes it a very questionable source, particularly with the comments about "cavalry breeders" and such -- the Baroque type has been out of favor since the rise of light cavalry at the end of the Renaissance, when the more warmblood style crosses came onto the scene; the Baroque breeds are truly magnificent, but they became the animals of the nobility, the menage, horsemanship schools, and of classical dressage. It would be good to clarify who these "cavalry breeders" are -- is it the tent-pegging crowd, or military reenactment fans, or what? Is there a government-sponsored military group that actually uses this sort of horse? Take a look at WP:V for the verifiability criteria. I certainly do not personally need to see everything sourced to a peer-reviewed journal, and am willing to consider breed registries and inside sources as solid for certain things (ideal breed criteria, modern breed development, goals of breeders, etc.), but historic claims benefit from non-aficionado sources that are more neutral. Montanabw (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

I also have problems with all of this information. To date it is totally unsubstantiated and after 25 years of the Warlander horse being bred to a standard, and much evidence now of F2 and subsequent Warlander to Warlander breedings there has been NO evidence of Atavism occurring in the Warlander. Interestingly, the Friesian breed has a much smaller genetic pool and we are not seeing evidence of it there because low inbreeding coefficients are encouraged by both mother studbooks. --Secret Squirrel 101 (talk) 04:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

A minor concern is with foreign-language sources. They CAN be used, but ideally should be backed up with either a translation in the footnote, or a supporting English source that summarizes the same material. WP's star example of a breed article that had to use extensive foreign language sources, but did so well, is Finnhorse. Montanabw (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

In short, all the outside material I've run across with this new breed suggests that it's primary focus is going to be in Dressage. (In fact, I think the USEF MIGHT be thinking about -- or already has -- allowed a Warlander division, may want to check that out). The references to being an ancient warhorse are a pretty big stretch, and the references to modern cavalry do not appear to line up with any modern exhibition regiments with which I am familiar. I am more than willing to look at source material that explains this better. Montanabw (talk) 21:30, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

There has been a misunderstanding here. The only references to ancient War Horses have been made in relation to the base breeds - the Friesian and the Iberian. Not the Warlander, and if someone has made these ascertations then they are incorrect. --Secret Squirrel 101 (talk) 04:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Reversions
A user reverted some of my changes, asking me to "take issue to talk" without apparently feeling the need to do so herself, making her reversions without discussing them here. I am expanding below upon my explanations for my changes, and will put the changes back unless members of the community see flaws in my arguments: WarlanderHorse (talk) 05:10, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) the statement about the FEI is not supported by the reference and is not true: the FEI page places no restrictions on named breed, and instead talks only about proper physical descriptions
 * 2) the statement about the UELN foundation is contradicted by the reference: the UELN prefix for the BZKS is 276384
 * 3) the statement about national equestrian federations is not supported by a reference and is not true: the German federation, among others, certainly recognizes the breed
 * 4) the term "claims" is loaded and I was certainly taught at journalism school to avoid it where possible and use neutral alternatives like "says" "states" "asserts".


 * Per WP:BURDEN the person who seeks to add or change material has the responsibility to justify it. The links used as citations do not back the claims made.


 * 1) The FEI doesn't list a "Warlander" anywhere, certainly they can compete, so can a grade horse. Please provide a link to support your claims
 * 2) The BZKS link only lists a breed standard and does not verify the rest of that particular section, so I tweaked it to conform to what the page said.
 * 3) The UELN cite used for the footnote here makes no mention of the Warlander as a breed. If there is a different citation on the UELN web site that does, please provide it.
 * 4) "Loaded" only applies when we aren't talking about advertising. The registry's "statement" that the Warlander's foundation breeds were warhorses is mere advertising propaganda; we also have such claims from half the draft horse breeds out there as well, they are all pretty dubious; the best that can be said is that any given breed's ancestors MAY HAVE been war horses in the Middle Ages.  While the baroque horse breeds may indeed have ancestors in the medieval destrier, as that was the phenotype, breeds as we understand them today did not exist as such in medieval times, written pedigrees as we know them today (for entire breeds, versus individual breeder's often-sketchy records) were not kept until the Andalusian, which was one of the earliest studbooks, and it didn't come into being until the 13th century at the earliest, which actually corresponds with the decline of the armored knight.  The claim of the Friesian as a war horse is even more dubious as that breed as such did not form until the 16th century, long after the mounted knght had disappeared from the battlefield.  This has been extensively researched, see, for example, the source material cited at Horses in warfare and especially Horses in the Middle Ages.
 * In short, it is tough to be neutral about a breed that you have passionate feelings about, but wikipedia cannot be a mouthpiece for breed registry's (often dubious) claims. But the neutral point of view is critical here, we are an encyclopedia, not an advertising service.  To see what an excellent breed article looks like, compare Thoroughbred or Appaloosa.  For smaller, rarer, newer breeds, observe the process right now at Rocky Mountain Horse, where an editor is prepping it for featured article status.   Montanabw (talk) 19:21, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

On (1), I think you are misrepresenting the issue at hand: the statement you have put back says that the FEI "does not recognize competition horses classed as Warlanders" but the attached reference does not in any way support that assertion. The attached reference says nothing about the FEI recognizing or classifying ANY horses by ANY breed. My intention in removing this statement is not to say that the FEI conclusively recognizes any Warlanders (I don't know if they do); the statement should be removed because the statement is not supported by its own reference. If you want the statement to remain, you should be prepared to replace its current non-sequitur reference with a real reference that says something -- anything -- about FEI recognition of competitions horses by breed. To put it another way, the original inclusion of the statement failed to justify its factual assertion with a relevant reference as per WP:BURDEN, and so should not be retained until and unless a real supporting reference is put forward. Feel free to do so if you can. On (2), I think you are misunderstanding what the UELN foundation does. The UELN that I cited, 276384, is ascribed by the UELN foundation to the BZKS without reservation; you can look this up here -- in other words, 276384 is the UELN prefix that the UELN foundation has granted to the BZKS to use for any horse breed whose books are held by the BZKS, including Warlanders. The fact that there is no UELN-issuing organization that does not solely inscribe Warlanders does not change the fact that there is at least one UELN-issuing organization that is permitted to inscribe Warlanders along with other breeds. As well, I note that you reverted the assertion that Warlanders are not recognized by any national federations, despite the fact that there is no reference supporting that statement, again in violation of the very WP:BURDEN policy that you cited. I know for a fact that several federations do recognize the breed -- including my own federation in Germany -- but I'm getting the impression that you are just making reversions as a sort of reflex without paying very much attention the references attached to the text. I'm sure you know a lot about horses, but no one knows so much that they can just make up their minds without reading the material in question. I would respectfully suggest that you not make reversions to changes until you have the time to read the references to the text in question. WarlanderHorse (talk) 18:15, 10 May 2012 (UTC)


 * The burden is on you, I'm afraid, please read WP:SYNTH, i.e., that the BZKS holds a Warlander stud book and the BZKS has a code doesn't therefore mean the Warlander has a code; you have to admit that Warlanders are in the same gray area as a lot of other designer crossbreds that people are trying to establish as a "breed" --in another 10-20 years, these issues will be resolved, but they aren't yet. It is tough to prove a negative, indeed, but you can't use that as grounds to make unprovable claims. For example, this link, choosing the saddle horse and pony category, lists dozens, if not hundreds of breeds, but not the Warlander, anywhere.  That said, the link about the FEI associates seems to have changed, so you are correct that the link was off, and thus I replaced it with the sport horse list they have.   Montanabw (talk) 02:34, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

The line you have inserted about the World Breeding Federation of Sport Horses, while true, is strangely irrelevant to the article: the list that you use as the reference also shows that the WBFSH does not recognize the American Quarter Horse as a sport horse breed. Would you feel the need to insert a similar sentence in the article on the Quarter Horse, stating that it is not recognized by the World Breeding Federation of Sport Horses? It would be no more relevant than inserting a sentence saying that the Quarterhorse and Warlander are not recognized by the American Kennel Club. Furthermore, although I have not been able to find a non-password protected online page for the German equestrian federation, I have found several (one will suffice for this discussion) that the USEF certainly does recognize the Warlander breed and does class competition horses as such, which shows conclusively that the article's existing statement that the breed is not recognized by any national equestrian federation is inaccurate. WarlanderHorse (talk) 18:08, 11 May 2012 (UTC)


 * You distort the USEF, so one horse has points and the owner calls it a Warlander. That is not "recognition." Where is the breed on the list here?  It's not.  USEF has NO recognized Warlander affiliates, no "Warlander" section in the USEF rule book.  The POINT is that the Warlander isn't really a recognized "breed" by hardly anyone yet, it's a designer crossbred.  Maybe in 25, or 10 or even 5 years, that could change.  But it isn't the state of things now. The Quarter Horse has been around since 1945, they have registered millions of them, they pulled out of USEF years ago because they had political reasons not to play, and yet - while some may show in some sport horse disciplines, that doesn't make it a "sport horse" as the term is used when defining horses that compete in international level competitions (though that may change with the recognition of reining, who knows?).  I'm not trying to be a snot here, I'm just trying to explain that your claims need to be properly sourced and not exaggerated. Everyone is enthusiastic about their breed, but they have to be encyclopedic and neutral on Wikipedia, and so far, we have had so much drama on all these Friesian crossbreds and not a lot of verification.  I have no problem if you precisely explain what the German recognition is like, but don't exaggerate it elsewhere.   Montanabw (talk) 19:21, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I am afraid that it appears that you are allowing your views of the breed to taint what you are inserting into this article. Whatever you think of the breed, you have (1) offered up no substantiation of the assertion that the breed is not recognized by "any national equestrian federation"; (2) offered no argument for the relevancy of the phrase about World Breeding Federation of Sport Horses; indeed, your narrative above about the American Quarter Horse indicates that you understand that being a member of the WBFSH is a separate issue from being a bona fide breed or competition horse.  I feel this matter has run its course, and I am going to make resoned (and fully referenced) changes to the article.  If you continue to object, I suggest that we refer this matter to Mediation Cabal. WarlanderHorse (talk) 20:31, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Article improvements discussion
I reverted the changes you made to the article because none of them were cited to anything other than the old footnotes already in the article - you can't change footnoted material without either checking the links to see if the new material verifies it or by finding NEW sources. I am very open to clarifying what the current standard is, and I'm glad to help you update the article. But it has to be done properly; to be perfectly honest, I think these brand new "breeds" are merely designer crossbreds, but I've fought and lost that battle years ago on other "breeds" (Friesian Sporthorse, Georgia Grande horse, Azteca horse, etc...) so my goal now is simply to be sure the articles follow the wikipedia guidelines and aren't simply free advertising or a copy and paste from the promotional web sites. So we can discuss how to make this article better and I AM glad to see new users who want to get involved. Montanabw (talk) 01:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * And by the way, the Andalusian horse article covers the PRE - we aren't going to get into all that political nonsense about what is or is not the "pure" Spanish horse here.  Montanabw (talk)  01:23, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi, thank you very much for helping make this all factual. Please bare with me as I have very limited vision and am not sure how to start this conversation with you. I am totally open to ensuring everything on the Warlander page is just factual and totally understand that there should be no advertising angle and I hate politics. I just wanted to assure you that if there is anyone that knows about the Warlander horse and its history etc you have the right person. I have no interest in portraying this breed for anything it is not.

There are many things that are totally incorrect on the current page.

The first is the image is not a Warlander horse. We suspect it is an Arabo Friesian. I am trying to get a copy right released image of a Warlander to replace.

The second is that there was no breed registry around when I created the Warlander with the view of establishing it as a specific breed in 1990. My name is Karen-Maree' Kaye and the stud name is the Classical Sporthorse Stud. I am the one who named the Warlander and it was done so after my veterinarian Dr Warwick Vale. This is where the 'war' came from. He helped me create the first breed standard. As I am the source of this information, I kept the original reference on the bottom which was to a history document on my website which is still there.

I was approached several years later by a lady in USA who asked if they could use the name 'Warlander' and start an association, to which I agreed as long as they did not alter the basis of the original breed standard. In 2012 that studbook folded and I felt an obligation to the breed to start a global body that had some type of regulation (testing, DNA Verification etc) and the Warlander Studbook Society was born. This is covered at http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/#/breed-history/4572174443

The next thing is that by stating only the Andalusian horse is not correct with the breed standard for the Warlander horse. The studbook accepts all purebred registered Iberian horses (not ponies) including the PRE (or any of its other names), Lusitano and Pura Raza Menorquina or crossings of these three as long as they have no outside blood and are registered. This is covered at http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/#/breed-standard/4572174509

The next thing is the all the talk about Genetic Atavism. The Warlander is now 25 years old and we do have F2 and F3 horses and there has been no evidence of Genetic Atavism at all. I kept the first bit of that section which related to hybrid vigor and inbreeding depression which still related to the references, but I do not know of any debate on the subject. The Warlander obviously has a bigger gene pool than 'all' of its base breeds however within the Warlander breed standard we have addressed these issues http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/#/breed-standard/4572174509 by:

1. Included the Main studbook, B Book I and B Book II of both Friesian registries (KFPS and FPZV). The B Books have a lot more genetic scope in them (pure forms of the Age and Ritske lines) which are not in the Main Studbook. The bloodlines of the KFPS approved stallions is at http://english.kfps.nl/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=S0_Z7ggAtPY%3d&tabid=142 which it can clearly be seen that the Age and Ritske lines are minute and the Tetman line predominant.

2. Incorporating all of the Iberian purebred 'horse' breeds

3. The Warlander studbook actively educates breeders through the website and open forums https://www.facebook.com/groups/warlanderstudbooksociety/ to understand the implications of breeding horses in a small gene pool http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/#/breeding/4572175196 plus we are working directly with Geneticists (Orivet) to not only offer disease and defect screening but to build a global Warlander genetic database that will in the future allow for the development of a Warlander genetic marker.

In the recognition section it was contradictory. The BZKS does hold a UELN designation for its studbooks and publishes a Warlander breed standard, so I deleted ..No breed-specific Warlander organizations are affiliated to the global Universal Equine Life Number (UELN) foundation

The last thing is the link at the bottom http://www.warlander.org/ does not exist (you can see on their main page) and has not since 2012. This needs to be deleted and replaced with the new body - Warlander Studbook Society - http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/# --Secret Squirrel 101 (talk) 04:02, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Hope that helps! Montanabw (talk) 05:39, 10 April 2015 (UTC)
 * Hi! Thanks for your replies. We'll be patient, no worries!  Do remember in the future to put your comments at the BOTTOM of the thread so we can keep the conversation straight.  To respond to your questions and comments:
 * 1) As for the photo, all we have is the uploader identifying it as a Warlander; if you can find something else that's copyright-free, we can certainly consider it. Based on thses images it looks similar to me, but a still, stood-up conformation shot would be better!
 * 2) If you started this type of horse, we will have to be really careful with your edits due to WP:COI and WP:NOADS, which basically places you in a tricky spot on WP. However, so long as I or someone else who is a known wikipedia editor looks over your sources (and if we have time, we do the edits), you can have a lot of input - we just have to be careful to keep our neutral point of view and source everything to neutral, third-party web sites. (Your own site can be used as a source for some things - such as the breed standard or history of the breed's development; but not for others - such as claims about its ability or historicity of foundation breeds)
 * 3) If there are multiple national breed studbooks, we will have to consider all of them, even if you don't all get along... just FYI. (We had that problem on the Andalusian page with the competing organizations suing each other and all that)
 * 4) The update on the Iberian horse breeds is a good point; I'll try to figure out how to get that fixed right away!
 * 5) The source on the Atavism question is from 2011 - we will have to do some research there- that said, whenever we find genetic questions in animal breeds - or other controversies (like soring) - we are obliged to discuss them, whether it be blindness in Appaloosas, HYPP in Quarter Horses, and so on - and some breeders get rather upset about that, but wikipedia is neutral - we explain what is verifiable. (I wrote the genetic disease section at Arabian horse, for example).
 * 6) We can't use facebook or bulletin boards as sources here on wikipedia. See WP:RS.
 * 7) We can update sources and fix other things.

Hi Montanabw You are a gem, many thanks again for your time. I will let you know when I get an appropriate picture organised, I feel it must be side on too, and most definitely one of a 'registered' Warlander horse, because without Warlander registration it is not a Warlander.

I hope you can change bit about where the breed came from and how its name evolved as what is on there is not correct.

Regarding any information on the base breeds, I really don't want to make any comment on them myself in relation to this page other than; in order for a Warlander to be registered the dam and sire must be 'registered' and purebred Iberian, Friesian or Warlander horses.

The Warlander Studbook Society (WSS) is the only Global Mother Studbook for the Warlander breed and we accept all findings of the Bayerischer Zuchtverband fuer Kleinpferde und Spezialrassen including keuring results and Warlander registration in Europe. We don't want to get into any politics between any of the base breeds that is why we accept everyone. All of this is covered at http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/#/breed-standard/4572174509

With any health problems, I would think that the ones known in the base breeds to be more relevant such as Cryptorchidism, Monorchidism. Dwarfism, Fallen Crest, Water head/crown head foals (hydrocephalus) and Mesocolic Rente. As mentioned, we are working with Orivet to develop DNA testing for any diseases or genetics defects should that be necessary, but to date, there have been no reports of any of these issues with horses registered in the Warlander Studbook. More about breeding of Warlander horses is covered here: http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/#/breeding/4572175196

Lastly, before you have enough of me :o) With regards to what the Warlander can be used for myself nor the studbook are never going to make any claims that this is a breed suitable for the Olympics! We would suggest strongly, if people were interested in the Warlander for high level FEI they instead look a breed, such as the Warmblood that has been selectively bred for that purpose.  However, we do have a Warlander gelding in Australia that has competed at World Cup level in Driving and won a national title, many that are in the homes of classical trainers and peforming high school dressage and one winning at Reining at National level in USA. Some have also gone to commercial homes where they are used in television commercials and movies and jousting. But generally, the Warlander is an all round 'pleasure' horse for all the family.  There are a couple of articles published by Baroque Horse Magazine that you can download at the bottom of http://warlanderstudbooksociety.com.au/#/breed-history/4572174443 called BMH 1 and BMH 2 that cover a bit more about what Warlander horses and their owners are actually doing. Take care, Karen Secret Squirrel 101 (talk) 06:37, 10 April 2015 (UTC)


 * I have an idea for the fastest way to get things fixed - I have looked at (and downloaded some) of the links you've placed above. Good stuff, and I can continue to help, but it's a bit of reading and I have myself tangled up in some other things that are cutting into my article editing time. So, can you do what you've done above but in a shorter way?  Hand me the research in simple snippets and Let's fix the stuff in the article first before adding more.  I can do that fastest if you give me stuff like like:


 * "The origin of the Warlander name is incorrect. Its correct origin is at this page: (and provide link to actual web page it's on)

Hope that helps! Montanabw (talk) 04:00, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw, can you let me know if you read this please.

I am sourcing an image of a registered Warlander horse that will have correct license. Will let you know when I get it.

Origin of Warlander name incorrect - Named after person (Dr Warwick Vale), not in reference to War horses.

The studbook also acknowledges this:

The Atavism bit is unsubstantiated in Warlander horses (is applicable to Friesian horses) and there is no link to Reference 7 Maharaj, Akaash (2011). A 21st Century Breeding Programme for the 21st Century Cavalry. Toronto: UNICEF Team Canada. who posted this in the first place. In 20 years has not been any evidence and Warlander now in third generation. Of course it is consideration, but Warlander has bigger genetic pool than all of its base breeds (all registered Friesian and Iberians). What is of more concern to studbook is genetic faults in Friesian horses - WSS believes in 100% transperancy within its studbook and acknowledges that the following genetic defects are known to come from the base breeds of the Warlander and WSS breeders must notify the society if any horses show the following - Cryptorchidism, Monorchidism. Dwarfism, Fallen Crest, Water head/crown head foals (hydrocephalus) and Mesocolic Rente.

Lastly, the following is contradictory.. No breed-specific Warlander organizations are affiliated to the global Universal Equine Life Number (UELN) foundation,[8] although the Bavarian Specialist Breed Registry (Bayerischer Zuchtverband für Kleinpferde und Spezialpferderassen, or BZKS), which does hold a UELN designation for its studbooks,[9] publishes a Warlander breed standard.

The BZKS has a Warlander studbook and is affiliated to the global Universal Equine Life Number (UELN) foundation.You already have the reference to them on the page.

Best KarenSecret Squirrel 101 (talk) 02:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Round two
Copied from user talk pages:

Hi, hope you are well. I am wondering when you will be able to help get the Warlander horse information correct please? Still not very factual (breed is not named after reference to 'War', is recognised in Europe, no evidence of Ativism and the studbook being quoted has been closed since 2012. Also, the pictured horse is not a registered Warlander, in fact it does not even look like one. Please, would really like to get this page made factual. Thanks Karen Secret Squirrel 101 (talk) 02:23, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Hello! Moving the discussion here, per Talk:Warlander,  I think we left off needing sources to be refined a bit so we can source and correct what's in there, then add more stuff. (I can go through source material, but it's way easier for me to be pointed to one page than an entire web site.) We also need some uploaded photos with the correct license - if the horse in the photo isn't a Warlander, (though it is labeled as such, though labels can be wrong, and often are), then we need free-license photos of ones that are:  Can you provide any photos?  I did a search at Flickr for Warlander images and everything had the wrong license.  (can't be limited to non-commercial use and can't disallow derivative works)   Frankly, th easiest way to have a free image is to upload one you take yourself if that's possible.  If you can find other photos or sources and provide the URLs, I can at least see what the licensing is.  Photos are a bear!   Montanabw (talk)  02:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)


 * For your benefit, here is a page that tells you which kinds of licenses from Flickr images (and anywhere else) we can use on wikipedia and which we cannot.  (Copyright is a pain in the butt!)  Montanabw (talk)  02:36, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw, can you let me know if you read this please.

I am sourcing an image of a registered Warlander horse that will have correct license. Will let you know when I get it.

Origin of Warlander name incorrect - Named after person (Dr Warwick Vale), not in reference to War horses.

The studbook also acknowledges this

The Atavism bit is unsubstantiated in Warlander horses (is applicable to Friesian horses) and there is no link to Reference 7 Maharaj, Akaash (2011). A 21st Century Breeding Programme for the 21st Century Cavalry. Toronto: UNICEF Team Canada. who posted this in the first place. In 20 years has not been any evidence and Warlander now in third generation. Of course it is consideration, but Warlander has bigger genetic pool than all of its base breeds (all registered Friesian and Iberians). What is of more concern to studbook is genetic faults in Friesian horses - WSS believes in 100% transperancy within its studbook and acknowledges that the following genetic defects are known to come from the base breeds of the Warlander and WSS breeders must notify the society if any horses show the following - Cryptorchidism, Monorchidism. Dwarfism, Fallen Crest, Water head/crown head foals (hydrocephalus) and Mesocolic Rente.

Lastly, the following is contradictory.. No breed-specific Warlander organizations are affiliated to the global Universal Equine Life Number (UELN) foundation,[8] although the Bavarian Specialist Breed Registry (Bayerischer Zuchtverband für Kleinpferde und Spezialpferderassen, or BZKS), which does hold a UELN designation for its studbooks,[9] publishes a Warlander breed standard.

The BZKS has a Warlander studbook and is affiliated to the global Universal Equine Life Number (UELN) foundation.You already have the reference to them on the page.

Best KarenSecret Squirrel 101 (talk) 02:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Montanabw,

Ok, I have had a go! Hopefully got it right so we can at least get the name thing sorted out. Let me know. Best KarenSecret Squirrel 101 (talk) 02:53, 17 June 2015 (UTC)


 * That works. If you want to take a shot at fixing the Warlander name bit, use the ref tags (looks like to create an inline citation to the url and I'll prettify it as needed.   Montanabw (talk)  05:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I have fixed the name and put two references. Had to delete the bit before about breed registries claim that they came from war horses (which was incorrect) and took out the references pertaining to that comment. If I had left it in, it would have been two contradictory statements and would not have made sense. Hope that is ok. Best KarenSecret Squirrel 101 (talk) 01:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)