Talk:Warren G. Harding/Archive 2

"I am not fit for this office..."
This quote was mentioned prominently in the article, in the summary at the start, but with a bad source. I have looked a little bit (standard google search) but have been unable to locate an authoritative source for this quote, just several trivia lists and quote lists. Since this is a rather extreme statement for a president in office to make, I think we need a really good source here, ideally a newspaper from the time.

As a bare minimum, we should be able to establish exactly *when* he said this and to whom, and perhaps also in what circumstances. None of the sources I found provide any background, they simply repeat the quote verbatim. As long as we cannot even pin a date on this quote, I do not believe it should be in this encyclopedia. --KarlFrei (talk) 11:30, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Humanitarian aid to Russia
I've edited the paragraph about Harding's aid to Russia during the famine (under "Presidency 1921–1923"), but I'm not sure what's left is 100%. The fact that it included an innuendo about Trotsky's involvement in Harding's death makes me doubt the reliability of the whole paragraph. That, and the fact that three prominent Jewish Bolsheviks were referred to by their less well-known but more Jewish-sounding birth names and are exclusively blamed for the Red Terror. Unfortunately I don't know enough to separate the facts from any possible anti-Jewish bias, although the Wikipedia article on the Red Terror doesn't seem to substantiate the association of Trotsky and Kamenev in particular with the terror. Also the claim that Harding's actions alone saved 10 million lives seems hard to believe and a cursory search on Google didn't turn up anything to support it. GlassWhale (talk) 14:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

"Warren G. Harding organized massive humanitarian help to starving Russian people during 1921 - 1922. His efforts saved at least 10 million Russians and Ukrainians from "Golodomor" organized by communists at that time. Harding's activities reportedly upset Leon Trotsky, Lev Kamenev and Grigory Zinoviev who were responsible for the Red Terror in Russia at the time. After Harding's death in 1923 all humanitarian help to Russia was discontinued."

Can anyone provide a cite for this? I've removed the paragraph for now. GlassWhale (talk) 12:59, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The above text needs some work. Our article for Golomodor seems to be Holodomor but that's a decade later.  I'm seeing much mention of the efforts of American Relief Administration    which were approved by Harding according to: Fisher, H. H. (1927). The famine in Soviet Russia, 1919-1923; the operations of the American Relief Administration. New York: Macmillan. -- SEWilco (talk) 17:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for checking up. It sounds like Hoover and the ARA deserve more of the credit for the relief effort than Harding. GlassWhale (talk) 19:03, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Harding's alleged Black/African-American heritage (NYT)
From today's NYTimes:
 * Will Americans vote for a black president? If the notorious historian William Estabrook Chancellor was right, we already did. In the early 1920s, Chancellor helped assemble a controversial biographical portrait accusing President Warren Harding of covering up his family’s “colored” past. According to the family tree Chancellor created, Harding was actually the great-grandson of a black woman. Under the one-drop rule of American race relations, Chancellor claimed, the country had inadvertently elected its “first Negro president.”....
 * To anyone who tracks it down today, Chancellor’s book comes across as a laughable partisan screed, an amalgam of bizarre racial theories, outlandish stereotypes and cheap political insults. But it also contains a remarkable trove of social knowledge — the kind of community gossip and oral tradition that rarely appears in official records but often provides clues to richer truths. When he toured Ohio in 1920, Chancellor claimed to find dozens of acquaintances and neighbors willing to swear that the Hardings had been considered black for generations. Among the persuaded, according to rumor, was Harding’s father-in-law, Amos Kling, one of the richest men in Harding’s adopted hometown of Marion. When Harding married his daughter, Florence, in 1891, Kling supposedly denounced her for polluting the family line....
 * Well into the 1930s, African-Americans claiming a family link continued to pop up in the press. (One decidedly dark-skinned Oliver Harding, supposedly the president’s great-uncle, appeared in Abbott’s Monthly, a black-owned Chicago magazine, in 1932.) As recently as 2005, a Michigan schoolteacher named Marsha Stewart issued her own claim to Harding ancestry. “While growing up,” she wrote, “we were never allowed to talk about the relationship to a U.S. president outside family gatherings because we were ‘colored’ and Warren was ‘passing.’”...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/magazine/06wwln-essay-t.html

I think some coverage of this should go into this article. --John Bahrain (talk) 15:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Surely it would depend on the amount of media attention this got, or gets in the next few days or weeks. I doubt a brief (supposedly humorous) mention on a Comedy Central show is going to justify full media attention. But consider, the fact itself is unproven, the source dead and the only confirmation or denial a genealogical examination of ancestors.Kerojack, Argenta (talk) 05:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Name
Hey, I just wanted to know about Harding's name, but what's with the Bancroft Winnipeg? I don't think thats right! If it is please source that, or not take it off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.231.125.138 (talk) 20:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Historiography
I wonder if the best solution to the problems for this article is just to write a separate section addressing all the disputes at once. Start out by stating that there is disagreement about Harding and much of the conventional wisdom is disputed by Harding scholars. Explain the problem of the presidential papers believed to be destroyed. List some of the main sources against Harding (eg, Means, White) and show their bias and unreliability. Cite some of the contemporary historians that challenge the standard account. Point out that the "worst president" consensus is also challenged. Then list all the specific widespread rumors that are disproved or questioned.

Then that section could stand alone while all the other stuff remains in the main bio. Personally, I side with the Harding revisionists, but even if it were possible (which I doubt) to purge the Wiki article of all the traditional falsehoods, there's no way they're going to be gone from the world at large. People are going to read these things about Harding in sources that look reliable. If they come to Wikipedia and there's no mention, they're going to wonder. Better to let the traditional bio stand and then show the evidence against it separately. If the revisionist case is well-documented it can stand on its own merits.

By the way, one more thing I would question: The "smoke-filled room" story, in spite of being widely repeated (even in Britannica), has no real evidence for it and is likely apocryphal. It's fine to mention it, but I don't think it should be stated as fact. Iglew (talk) 08:32, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Direct quotes
User:Adavidb and I are having a dispute regarding the following quote: "I have no trouble with my enemies," Harding said, "but my damn friends, they're the ones that keep me walking the floor nights!" I argue that no reliable source for this quote can be found, and that it should therefore be removed. So far, Adavidb has come up with a website of the State of Delaware, the White House website, Grolier online, and two more websites. I do not think that any of these are particularly well-suited as a reliable source. I think we need a primary source or work done by a historian. Does anyone here disagree? Please explain. --KarlFrei (talk) 08:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

gansta
Get ready for Warren "Gansta" Harding. Thank you colbert... ♠♦Д narchistPig♥♣ (talk) 03:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * called it.♠♦Д narchistPig♥♣ (talk) 03:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Lets also mention he was the first secret black president!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.174.5.55 (talk) 06:50, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Nothing gets by you, sparky. Hey, the first black President, and a member of the KKK at that! Sounds like a scene from Blazing Saddles. Someone's pulling our lariat with this nonsense. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:09, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Colbert Report mention on June 9, 2008
No, Colbert Nation, the "G" does not stand for Gangster. - Dravecky (talk) 03:48, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Correct, it does not stand for "gangster." It's "gangsta"-- obviously, you're not one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vtphattie (talk • contribs) 03:57, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Aww, what's the big deal. The guy's dead! --Maestro25 (talk) 03:49, 10 June 2008 (U TC)

It's been removed but it was funny while it lasted.Thegiantpaperpanda (talk) 03:59, 10 June 2008 (UTC) We try to keep Wikipedia a reliable source, I move we lock this page until the Colbert Nation moves on... Atomicswoosh (talk) 03:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Moves on? Colbert Nation will never forget! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.80.237.29 (talk) 05:10, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Thanks for the lock Atomicswoosh (talk) 03:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

in less than a minute, the wiki page was changed. lol, gotta love the internet. Go colbert, next president of the US of A!!! Snugg (talk) 03:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Please do not edit my comments. I love Colbert but the integrity of the project must be preserved. - Dravecky (talk) 03:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Vandalism reported. - Dravecky (talk) 03:56, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I think someone with adequate writing skills should also update Colbert's page under 'wikipedia mentions' to include this. If it sits for more than an hour, then nobody will remember it ever happened!!! :P Snugg (talk) 04:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * To paraphrase Groucho Marx, we're fighting for this man's honor, which is more than he ever did. Maybe we should go to the Stephen Colbert page, and vandalize it by calling him a journalist or something. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:44, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Please vandalise away. I have a feeling you might be making Mr Colbert's point for him. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.220.6 (talk) 01:39, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Nah. This story is sooooooo yesterday. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 01:41, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

But heck people still vandalise latchkey kid so yesterday might never end for some. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.45.166.232 (talk) 18:58, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Fully protected
Fully protected. Thank you again Mr. Colbert. – ClockworkSoul 03:51, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. change the title above his pic. still says Gangsta Snugg (talk) 03:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe all Gangsta has been removed. Shall we lock it again and throw away the key this time?

his middle name is not gangsta, it is Gamaliel!
 * The vandalism has been reverted. Nufy8 (talk) 04:08, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You may wish to protect Dark Horse as well. Kerojack, Argenta (talk) 04:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
 * wow, I got reverted withing 10 seconds. That's got to be some sort of record.--Colbertnation984 (talk) 23:14, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * You've been reported for vandalism. Give us a reason not to block you. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 23:36, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
 * He's been blocked. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 01:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * seriously ppl, his nick is Colbertnation984 and you think that blocking him is something special. You guys are friggen retarted
 * Someone redid the "Gangsta" BS again. I would fix it, but some facist locked the article.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.236.57 (talk) 01:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't sweat it. It's being watched by many eyes. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 01:24, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Not enough of them. As of now, nearly a year after this comment, it's locked with "Gangsta" as the middle name.  I'll admit I still find it amusing.  But also wrong.  Someone with admin privs please fix?  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.77.141.201 (talk) 05:37, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I made the correction this morning. Late night (U.S. time zones) vandalism may average longer before being undone, but admin priv's aren't currently necessary – merely a registered account. &mdash;ADavidB 19:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Spoken Article
Hi Everyone. Just wanted to let you know that I'm preparing a spoken article on President Harding. Should be ready to go up as soon as the lock is removed. Bowie60 (talk) 22:03, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, going to have to suspend work on the spoken article for now. If anyone else wishes to jump in, go right ahead.  Bowie60 (talk) 21:49, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Sentence About Him Being One of Three Sitting Senators to Become President
I moved that sentence from the end of the section on his death into the section on his Senate career, where it is more appropriate, and re-worded it for the new context.--Unscented (talk) 23:44, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

Edit
I would like to add a citation for the following sentence in the article: "She has been credited with helping Harding achieve more than he might have alone; some have speculated that she later pushed him all the way to the White House." I found the following passage that seems to support the claim: "And Harding had no illusions about himself. He was a joiner, a booster, a glad-handler.  This was the life he loved, and he wanted no other.  But relentlessly his wife - "the Duchess," he called her - pushed her Warron on; and in the end, against his pathetic wisps of better judgment, he found himself President of the United States." The citation is as follows: "Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr. The Age of Roosevelt: The Crisis of the Old Order, 1919-1933, 1957 (page 50).

Esprit80 (talk) 05:20, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That seems appropriate. I'll make the edit for you. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 05:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Edit #2
Also, I noticed that this article was previously edited to remove a quotation in which Harding stated he was unfit to serve as President. In fact, he did say the following, "I am not fit for this office and should never have been here." I think it's worth putting the quotation back in. The quotation is set out in Schlesinger, Arthur M., Jr. The Age of Roosevelt: The Crisis of the Old Order, 1919-1933, 1957 on page 51. Schlesinger then additionally cites the following for the quotation: "Adams, Incredible Era, 7-8; W.A. White, Autobiography (New York, 1946), 619; W. A. White, Masks in a Pageant (New York, 1928), 431; N.M. Butler, Across the Busy Years (New York, 1939), I, 411." Seems pretty solid.

Esprit80 (talk) 05:44, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * You seem to be pretty knowledgeable about the topic (or at least you've got a good reference book in your hands). Rather than making the edit for you, just wait another day or two until you become "autoconfirmed", and then you'll be able to do it yourself. ·:· Will Beback  ·:· 22:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

gansta #2

 * should we add on the first paragraph that Warren G. Harding was the true first African-American presindent? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.230.6.238 (talk) 03:24, 8 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Don't believe everything Stephen Colbert tells you. 69.230.209.174 (talk) 03:28, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem with saying that Warren G. Harding was the first African-American President is that it is a theory that is unproven by fact. While many people believe this concept - some even go to great lengths to self publish books on the topics, there is no way to scientifically prove the concept, nor is there any way to verify generally accepted documents that could show this is even a possibility. The rumor that Harding was black rages about based on two quotes, one by Harding himself (where he says he doesn't know if it could be true, the other a rumor started by his future father-in-law meant to destroy Harding's business and reputation.) Consider verifiable these FACTS on the matter:

1) Harding's alleged "black" lineage can not be proven through United States Census forms, death certificate, or any other PRIMARY SOURCE document. As far back as the 1850 census (the first to name all people enumerated, and designate their race) Harding's father and mother are enumerated as white.  This is most frequently dismissed by Harding Conspiracy followers who claim the census forms were doctored after the fact as part of a Federal Government cover-up.

2) There is no DNA proof of Harding's alleged "black blood", (nor is there proof that Harding fathered Elizabeth Ann Christian).

3) Harding was not raised as a cultural "black" that is to say that he was not raised within the black community, and therefore would have not had the same cultural experiences that other blacks in the era would have had.

4) "Black Harding" promoters will point to William Estabrook Chancellor's book on Harding as proof of government conspiracy. And it is interesting how swifty the government worked to squash the book and get its copies.  But if one looks at Chancellor's research methodology (and we step away from those who claim that the book was supressed) - all of it based on hearsay - any student in college today who would present this type of research in the form of a paper, masters thesis or dissertation would have been thrown out of college for faulty research!

5) Some of the promoters of this theory of Harding's "blackness" on "family stories". While folklore is not always untrue, folklore can be embellished from storyteller to storyteller. Ask anyone who studies it, folklore is at the mercy of the one who passes it on.

6) The promoters of these theories go to great lengths to attack the people who poke logical holes in their wishful arguments. They can not refute the facts, so they attack the people who question their beliefs. Take a look at the "reviews" of Harding books published in the past ten years in places like Amazon and B&N online and you'll get an idea how some people will attack those who do not buy into the black "Black Harding" myth.

If Wikipedia were to add information that Harding was the first black President, without irrfetable proof, it simply ads another chain in the long list of unrliable misinformation. Askthecoolcookie (talk) 14:23, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Proposed edit
I would like to add the following text:

"While traditionally ranked as the worst American President in history, Harding's reputation has been rising since the 1990s. Most recently, the British Times Online, reported that a recent survey shows that Harding's reputation is rising. While still ranked in the bottom ten, The Times ranking now places Harding at 34th of 43 men who have held the job, the bottom rung now occupied by Abraham Lincoln's predecessor James Buchanan."

(Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5030539.ece) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Askthecoolcookie (talk • contribs) 13:57, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
 * You didn't specify where you want to add the text. I'd suggest that rather than putting it at the end of the lead section, where there is now a brief mention of "scholars" ranking Harding last, you might add this new text later in the article, perhaps after the 'Administrative scandals' or 'Death' section. From what source is the "reputation ... rising since the 1990s" statement?  I didn't see that claim in the Times source. I'd combine your second and third sentences with something like "The Times (United Kingdom) surveyed its top commentators and reported in October 2008 that Harding ranked 34th among the 43 U.S. presidents, with the worst having been Abraham Lincoln's predecessor James Buchanon". &mdash;ADavidB 07:05, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

✅ Cmguy777 (talk) 04:33, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

G does not stand for gangsta
See the article Warren G. That guy is a rapper. The G in his name stands for Griffin, not gangsta. Same for Harding. Are you ready for IPv6? (talk) 10:17, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The "G" in Harding stands for Gamaliel, not Griffin. 68.252.62.180 (talk) 19:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Aphasia?
Anyone have a better reference that the guy had aphasia than an under-construction page on "doctorzebra.com"? It seems like the claim has been copied around to various sites, but I don't see anything that I would consider a solid reference for the claim.

For example, there is some detailed discussion about his medical history here but there is no mention of aphasia.

--Martinde (talk) 01:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Harding Affair releases 9/1/2009
James David Robenalt's the Harding Affair, Love and Espionage During Great War (Palgrave/Macmillan) is scheduled to release on Spetmeber 1, 2009. There will need to be changes to the Harding article based on this work, of which I have read an advance copy. The book goes into excrutiating detail on the Harding/Phillips affair and this article will need to be amended and the work cited - it is extremly well cited to primary source material. Robenalt was able to get a copy of the letters, determined that the copyright on the letters had expiried and has written an impressive, though demanding book. Editors should have a head up. 68.252.62.180 (talk) 19:08, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Correction needed
There is an item under "Major events during presidency" that says: "Resignation of Harding's Attorney General for accepting bribes."

This info is incorrect and needs to be deleted.

Harry Daugherty was Harding's attorney general and he held office well into President Coolidge's term of office. When he did resign his position, he was not being prosecuted for bribery.

Albert Fall, the Secretary of the Interior resigned during Harding's presidency but was not under suspicion for bribery at the time of his resignation.

Please correct this info.

Goman1 (talk) 05:23, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Infobox Photo
Is there any other portrait available for use in the infobox? Call me crazy, but I particularly dislike the current one, I feel (personally) that it looks a bit threatening. Would an official White House portrait be suitable? Connormah (talk) 19:33, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * The man didn't seem to photograph well. I skimmed through a bunch of "Harding" images on Wikipedia and only this one seemed half decent, but its side view may not be best for the Infobox either.  A File:Warren G. Harding II.jpg file might have worked, though it has writing all over the bottom of it. —ADavidB 21:27, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm a bit surprised the senator picture (right) is no longer being used. I don't mind which image in used, including the current painting, but can we decide by concensus? If the old image isn't the best one for the main infobox, it would be good to use it to illustrate the senate career section. YeshuaDavid •  Talk  • 21:22, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * File:Warren G. Harding II.jpg, found by ADavidB, could be cropped to eliminate the writing at the bottom and the other distractions. It's much friendlier looking than the others.   Will Beback    talk    22:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * There is another one on the Library of Congress site, but it is available only on request. I just personally think the Senator portrait looks a bit uninviting. Connormah (talk) 23:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I've searched the Library of Congress, and have found these following ones, that I think may be suitable.
 * 1
 * 2


 * There is also some here. Take a look. Connormah (talk) 00:20, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I get "temporary file open error" when trying to open these links, though will try again later. —ADavidB 02:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I got the same message. YeshuaDavid  •  Talk  • 16:21, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * They worked for me the other day.   Will Beback    talk    19:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The original image has been reinserted into the lead, and I still do not feel that it is friendly enough. Any other thoughts? Connormah (talk) 21:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Added another new one. Hopefully the final. Connormah (talk) 05:09, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Blatant error in the details of his death
The main article lists that his personal physician at the time of his death was the surgeon general. This is simply not true. He should *not* be listed as the surgeon general. (76.89.158.250 (talk) 21:56, 1 October 2009 (UTC))
 * Thanks for catching that. I've removed the error from the article, and corrected Dr. Sawyer's link there as well.—ADavidB 04:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Error in who resigned during Harding's presidency
The Man who resigned his cabinet post while Harding was president was Albert Fall, Secretary of the interior. It was not Harry Daugherty, Attorney General. This needs to be corrected in the section titled "Major Events dring Presidency". Harry Daughterty acted attorney general well into Collodge's term as president. Evem the "Administration and cabinet" table of the article shows this. Thank you for your help with this correction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Goman1 (talk • contribs) 21:10, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 173.71.197.211, 14 April 2010
editsemiprotected

Please change Warren Gangsta Harding to his proper name of Warren Gamaliel Harding.

173.71.197.211 (talk) 14:45, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

✅--JayJasper (talk) 14:47, 14 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Joseph setorius, 12 May 2010
Please remove this from the ===Administrative scandals=== section. (Aside from the bribes and personal loans, the leases were fully legal.) They weren't fully legal...and it explains that on both the Albert B. Fall and Teapot Dome Scandal pages as follows: " In 1922, Albert B. Fall, U.S. Secretary of the Interior, leased, without competitive bidding, the Teapot Dome fields to Harry F. Sinclair of Sinclair Oil, and the field at Elk Hills, California, to Edward L. Doheny. In 1922 and 1923, these transactions became the subject of a sensational U.S. Senate investigation conducted by Senator Thomas J. Walsh."

Joseph setorius (talk) 09:40, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Not done: Please provide a reliable source which supports your conclusion. Wikipedia is not a reliable source and, regardless, it isn't obvious that the lack of competitive bidding would be illegal. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 13:58, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

If Fall took a bribe for awarding Oil leases to his cronies, then they could not be legal. {Cmguy777 (talk) 01:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)}

Speaking style 05-20-2010
This section tends to turn into a series of personal attacks against Harding's speaking style. Harding was a newspaper man and knew exactly what he was doing. The press loved him for his mistakes and his verbal foibles. If you listen to his speeches Harding drones on, but what he said was very comforting to all the families coping with losses from WWI. {Cmguy777 (talk) 01:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)}

Pending changes
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Pending changes/Queue  are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Pending changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:37, 17 June 2010 (UTC).

Valuable Addition
We need to include the list of actors who have portrayed Harding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.173.110.95 (talk) 00:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Gordon did a smash up good job!
Gordon-

Loved your edits. You are quite right in each instance except one. I did remove the "finacially" from the Marion Daily Star mention as one of three papers in Marion. The Star did have money problems, however it also had little if any local reporting and wasn't always a printed "daily". To say that it was the weakest paper covers all bases, including that of its finance issues. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stude62 (talk • contribs) 23:53, 27 December 2004 (UTC)

Warren G. Hardings Real policies
Why doesn't the article author mention the serious part of Hardings politics:

The Raising of tarriffs on imports and the reduction of taxes, creating the basis for the roaring twenties.

according to some sources, many US companies grew so wealthy during this period that most didn't even need bank financing.

also the money supply increased during his presidency, continuing to do so after his death under his vice president Calvin Coolidge. Why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.172.204.59 (talk) 11:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Editsemiprotected Middle Name
editsemiprotected Warren Harding's middle name is not "Gangsta" as the wiki page suggests but rather it is Gamaliel as noted by Britannica's website: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/255071/Warren-G-Harding  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.118.226.244 (talk) 01:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Article improvement
Thanks to everyone who has contributed and improved the Warren G. Harding article. I have attempted to get the article into GA status, adding more information on Harding's presidency while remaining critical of his administration and personal life. Any suggestions to improve the article are welcome.{Cmguy777 (talk) 03:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)}

Article status
With the improvements I am going to change the article up from a C status to a B status. It has work to be done to get a GA, but the quality has improved. {Cmguy777 (talk) 03:12, 29 June 2010 (UTC)}

Contrary to the opening section, Harding is *not* rising in presidential rankings, according to latest data.
Siena College Research Institute's recent survey of 238 presidential scholars puts harding as 3rd to last, after W. even. This almost entirely refutes the last paragraph of the opening section. The section needs to be changed, I would do it, but since I'm a stranger to this article, I'll wait to see if someone else does it. M4bwav (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
 * What are the qualifications for this survey: "presidential scholars, historians and political scientists"? Are we to assume that there are 238 persons out there who are Harding historians who have done thorough research?  If you read Harding's presidencial record there is no rational reason to put Harding in the bottom three.  Radio regulation: Childhood protection: Arms reduction.  If these are the hallmarks of a terrible president, I don't know what are good qualities.  Jefferson used black slave children to make nails.  Is that a good quality?  Washington had no issues with whipping black male or female slaves for low quality performance.  I guess that is a hallmark for being a good president.  I am just trying to put things in perspective. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Depression of 1920-1921
This section was filled with all sorts of POV information about the economic policies of Harding that were frankly just wrong. They were based on a single source, a dubious article by Thomas Woods that claimed that tax cuts and an otherwise laissez-faire policy by Harding ended that recession and set the state for a decade of growth before the Great Depression. In fact, nearly every fact mentioned by Woods is belied by the actual sources, which I included in my update of the section. I didn't cite unemployment rates because they are unreliable, but the 12% rate is a high estimate, and other sources put the top unemployment rate under 9% (see the Wikipedia article on the 1920-1921 recession). GDP decline rates were also wrong. The previous text, following woods, seemed to imply that tax cuts helped stop the recession. In fact, they occurred after the recession was over. There was some action by the Fed during 1921, indicating they did not pursue a laissez-faire policy but instead eased credit to end the recession, though not uniformly. (In fact, rates were set regionally in those days.) Also, the "Roaring 20s" actually contained 3 recessions and a lower rate of growth than the 1933-1940 period. Summary: Woods is an unreliable source, when compared to reliable and official sources. His article is still included as a citation of those who misrepresent this period, hopefully to avoid a revert or later inclusion of incorrect information.

I might have the citation style wrong. I chose "web" even though many of the sources are online versions of books or spreadsheets. If someone is a stickler for formatting of this kind of thing they can check the links and verify that my sources are correct (and widely accepted, official sources. Llachglin (talk) 00:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Depression of 1920–21= before Harding and Coolidge. 1923–24 recession= Warren G. Harding died, possibly why it happened? 1926–27 recession= thought to be caused largely because Henry Ford closed production in his factories for six months to switch from production of the Model T to the Model A. After Harding during Coolidge. Great Depression 1929-1933= after Harding and Coolidge. This needs to change "Thomas E. Woods, however, contends in the Fall 2009 issue of The International Review, that the tax cuts implemented by President Harding ended the Depression of 1920-21 and were responsible for creating a decade-long expansion. In fact, there were three recessions in the 1920s prior to the Great Depression and the rate of recovery was slower than during the Great Depression." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.137.180.243 (talk) 13:29, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I've done an edit you can keep it or not. It sounded to me like unduly blaming a man for events he was not at fault for, maybe reword how they are written? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.137.180.243 (talk) 12:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Reliable source?
The statement that "it was well known that Harding kept supplies of bootleg liquor at the White House during prohibition", is referenced with the website "1920-1930.com". Does this quailfy as a reliable source for Wikipedia purposes? 2tuntony (talk) 15:45, 12 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Removed sentence that it was well known President Harding kept bootleg liquor.Cmguy777 (talk) 04:04, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Scandals section needs to be enlarged
The Presidential scandals section needs to be enlarged and divided into sub sections. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:06, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Fictional portrayal of Harding
Can the editor who continues to add uncited fictional movie references into a biography of a real life person, please explain why this information is so pertinent to the article.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:02, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The citation is the movie itself Sunrise at Campobello. And the item is pertinent to the article as it gives a strong an opinion of Harding, albeit from a movie.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs) 01:10, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Seems like pop culture trivia, which is not very encyclopedic for a biographical article. It'd be like having a section in the Bill Clinton article noting that the original Animaniacs theme song name-dropped him and his sax playing. Tarc (talk) 01:24, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree. I'm not a fan of trivia in general and I am unsure as to the prevailing consensus about their acceptability in presidential articles. Dr.K. λogosπraxis 01:49, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Movie portrayals should be in the media portrayal section. However, the movie itself should have some historical signifigance and done artistically, otherwise the tuba portrayal should not be in the article.  I will have to look at a review of this movie "Sunrise at Campobello". Cmguy777 (talk) 04:43, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the New York Times the movie was made in 1960 and was about Franklin D. Roosevelt. There is no mention of Warren G. Harding being portrayed in the movie as credited. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I can't find the scene where Warren G. Harding is playing the tuba. It could be at the beginning of the movie.  I would have to rent or purchase the movie to find out. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:56, 13 September 2010 (UTC)


 * In the movie FDR says to Eleanor Roosevelt that Harding is playing the tuba while 6,000,000 are unempolyed. This scene occurs a few minutes prior to FDR first feeling the effects of polio. tuco_bad 18:39, 13 September 2010 (UTC)  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)
 * I would strongly suggest that you stop inserting this information that several editors have objected to so far. Edit-warring day after day as you did on the Clinton articles a few months back is just going to lead to an unpleasant end. Tarc (talk) 13:30, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * If Tarc would bother to read the Talk Page, he would understand that I was replying to Cmguy777's inquiry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs) 17:49, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * If one can find an actual quote, not from a scripted movie, from Eleanor Roosevelt that Harding played the tuba while 6,000,000 are unemployed, then that would be legitimate. It appears that one of the screen writers took a jab at Harding in the movie.  That is POV rather then historical signifigance. Movie scripts are not always historically accurate unless proven. You have to remember Harding was the only Republican to win FDR in a presidential election.  That is a fact.  It is not surprising that in a movie on FDR that a jab would be taken on President Harding.Cmguy777 (talk) 18:56, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with you. I wanted this item to be in Harding's article because watching the movie, one would believe that Harding was indifferent to the plight of the unemployed, which was not the case. tuco_bad 00:47, 15 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cgersten (talk • contribs)

Life legacy
I am removing this summary since it is already covered in the opening. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:48, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Warren G. Harding was an ambitious self made man risen from obscurity on an Ohio farm; graduated as a rural teacher from college; and owned the Marion Daily Star newspaper; having gained journalist training on his father's newspaper working while a boy and at college. Harding, a strikingly handsome young man, began his career in the Republican party at the 1887 Ohio State Republican Convention. Harding also married the daughter of the wealthiest banker in Marion County. A natural politician, Harding served two terms as Ohio State senator in 1900 and served one term as Ohio's lieutenant governor. In 1910 he ran unsuccessfully for Ohio State governor; however, having gained national exposure from the governor's race he was elected U.S. Senator by a landslide 100,000 vote victory in 1914. In 1920, Harding was the compromise candidate at the Republican national convention and was elected the 29th President of the United States.

Apologetic presentation
The treatment of Harding's corruption scandals in the introduction is apologetic. The pertinent paragraph emphasizes credit for the "notable men" he chose, distracting attention from his scandals. Then it downplays his involvement as a trifle mistake, noting he was careless and employing the passive voice and presenting scandals as logical consequence. I think nepotism is what it should be called. Here is the paragraph:
 * President Harding headed a cabinet of notable men such as Charles Evans Hughes, Andrew Mellon, and future president Herbert Hoover. However, he was careless with other associates and rewarded his close friends with powerful positions. Scandals and corruption would eventually be found in the Harding Administration; 

Ben T/C 11:29, 23 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your input Ben. Hughes, Mellon, and Hoover were talented honest men. There is nothing mentioned he made a "trifle mistake" in his other appointments.  The "Damaged reputation and rumors" section states "However, responsibility for the Harding scandals, both presidential and personal, ultimately belong to Harding himself; a man with excellent political ability and traits mixed in with his own character flaws."  The article mentions that Harding was responsible for these appointments and does not attempt to trivialize the matter.  Five scandals are mentioned along with Harding's appointments.  Maybe rewording can be done to reduce any POV.  The article should not overlook the competent men that Harding appointed or any notable achievements in the Harding Administration.  I made it a point to emphasize Charles Forbes, one of Harding's most ruthless appointments.  There is nothing trivial concerning the scandals or crimes committed by these scoundrels. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:59, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your answer, Cmguy777. I see you made an attempt to improve the wording and you got rid of the notable men and other distractions. However, I think, the paragraph still tries to make him seem a better man for human mistakes. I think the last paragraph of the introduction is very clear and on the same issue. Why not take just the two sentences about Fall and Forbes and put it together with the sentence of the Ohio Gang (and get rid of the political talent, carelessness, etc, altogether)? Ben T/C 10:32, 11 November 2010 (UTC)


 * I think you found a good phrasing. The rest of the paragraph now also reads really well. Good job! Ben T/C 21:23, 12 November 2010 (UTC)

Separate Presidency of WGH article
Should the WGH article have a separate Presidency article to save space? Cmguy777 (talk) 20:53, 27 November 2010 (UTC)


 * My opinion is not to separate. This has not been pressed (though it has been mentioned) in other larger articles, e.g. Lincoln (146kb) and Kennedy (125kb). I would prefer to economize on details if we start going too far that way, but from my own individual perspective I'd feel better doing that after I have finished reading the Russell bio. Carmarg4 (talk) 00:26, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

More Sources Needed and Pending
I have added tags showing where we need more sources for verification. I am working through the article as I read Russell's biography and hope to supply cites to that source. Others are needed as well. Carmarg4 (talk) 22:22, 1 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Are you Carmarg4 disputing the Graff source?


 * Not at all. If you think any particular flag is missplaced, feel free to take it down by all means. Cheers. Carmarg4 (talk) 14:19, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * OK. I have been putting in added sources in the article for verification.  I am hoping with further research the article can be cleaned up a bit and be more accurate.  One area is Harding's lack of sympathy for the poor or unemployed.  He called them "parasites".  Another area that needs to be addresses is Harding's relationship with Calvin Coolidge.  The article does need verification and added sources. Cmguy777 (talk) 18:28, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * No one has worked any harder on this than you and it has paid off for sure, it seems to me. I appreciate the heads up on the poor and relationship w/ CC. I'll try to be alert for those as I go thru Russell. My progress will slow down during the holiday. I want to read a couple Christmas classics, like The Christmas Carol for one. Carmarg4 (talk) 21:59, 4 December 2010 (UTC)


 * In history books Harding is a footnote. I mainly just looked for sources to find out what actually went on during his Presidency and what he did while in Ohio and in the U.S. Congress. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Harding and prohibition
It appears from a New York Times article that Harding took a stand against Prohibition many times while U.S. Senator. In fact he approved the Reed Amendment that gave alchohol industry compensation from the Government and tried to defeat the 18th Amendment with a six-year clause. Harding appears to be embedded with the alchohol industry. Would this explain why President Harding was reluctant to prosecute violators of the 18th Amendment and drank bootleg liquor? Cmguy777 (talk) 01:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I've gotten the impression so far that Harding was loathe to come down on either side of this, like most other issues, at least in the Senate. Having said that, I have a long way to go with the bio I'm reading. Here's to WGH! (I'm a friend of Bill W's myself.) Carmarg4 (talk) 02:49, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

WP Links
Just FYI, in other FAC and GAC reviews, the reviewers consistently advise that WP link should be made at the earliest point in the article, and not duplicated thereafter. My own opinion is "what's the harm?" but that seems to be the "rule". Carmarg4 (talk) 15:27, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Hardings race
There has been no DNA testing for Hardings race in any of his family members, as far as I know. If Harding had a direct relative, who had sons, whose sons had sons, then, possibly a DNA test could be taken. The Dr. Foster test had used DNA from Jefferson's uncle that indicated Jefferson could be the the father of one of Sally Heming's children. I don't believe that the black ancestry allegation should be dismissed with Harding. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:26, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Civil rights section
I believe there should be a seperate segment and Harding on Civil Rights, combining any inter related civil rights issues. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:39, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Life at the White House
I am not sure why the "by whom?" tag was put in this section. Why was this tag put in the section? Cmguy777 (talk) 01:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)


 * I put the tag on because I couldn't see who wrote the reference linked there. If the tag looks wrong to you, feel free to remove. Carmarg4 (talk) 02:38, 9 December 2010 (UTC)


 * OK. Thanks! Cmguy777 (talk) 02:42, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Jesse Smith
Does the research actually state that President Harding had a meeting with Jesse Smith in 1923 before Smith committed suicide? Adams mentions that Smith was told through U.S. Attorney Daugherty to leave Washington and that his security clearance at the White House was taken away. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:42, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
 * Russell says the Pres. heard Smith was running with a gay crowd and partying all hours of the night, using the AG's car. No mention of a meeting. Pres told AG what he had heard. Then the AG informed Smith he was no longer welcomed to go on the Alaska trip and should leave Wash.. No mention of pass revocation but Smith considered he was banned and was suffering from paranoia. (p. 567-568) Carmarg4 (talk) 13:58, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Adams mentions something similar that Smith was indirectly informed that President Harding did not want him at the White House anymore and to leave Washington. Smith, according to Adams, felt rejected since many others were into graft while he was told to leave. Smith did leave Washington briefly and then returned to Daugherty's apartment where he allegedly killed himself. I found one photo at LOC where Smith, Attorney General Daugherty, and President Harding are at a baseball game. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:39, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Official Portraits
We have two official portraits of WGH. We need to find out which one is the official portrait and rename/delete the other. Carmarg4 (talk) 13:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)


 * That sounds good. Could it be possible there were two official portraits? Cmguy777 (talk) 05:26, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

San Francisco funeral procession
According to Dr. Wilbur, who was an eyewitness to the account, Harding's casket, traveled up Market and Geary Street. Wilbur mentioned there were funeral services, whatever that means is unknown. There must have been some formal procession. Wilbur did not say Harding's body remained in state. There was music, again what kind of music was unknown, and the people of San Francisco watched as Harding's funeral procession went to the railroad station. The funeral procession, however, was very basic or not very showey. Harding's body traveled by an automobile hearse, possibly making him the first President to have a funeral procession by automobile. I am not sure what a hearse looked like in 1923, whether the casket could be viewed by the people. Is there some way to mix this in with the newspaper accounts? Here is a link for a photo of a 1923 hearse: 1923 hearse Cmguy777 (talk) 05:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I did some research. Theodore Roosevelt may have been the first President whose body rode in an automobile hearse during a funeral procession in 1919.  Here is the link: TR Funeral.  From the photo it is difficult to tell if President Theodore Roosevelt's body was tranferred by automobile hearse.  I could not see any horses in the photo.  The automobile hearse was invented in 1909 by H.D. Ludlow.  William McKinley's body could not have been driven in an automobile hearse, since his funeral was in 1901.  Does anyone know if President Theodore Roosevelt's body was tranferred by automobile hearse or horse drawn hearse?Cmguy777 (talk) 06:51, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Tea Pot Dome
On Harding's "Voyage of Understanding" he talked with Fall's wife in Kansas and became visibly upset. Also, when Harding received a coded message while traveling to Alaska, he became upset again. Could it possibly be that Harding was upset over information on Albert Fall concerning Tea Pot Dome? Maybe Harding did know something about an impending scandal with Albert Fall. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Good Article
I believe it would be good to have a good article attempt; hopefully an objective view will be able to make any neccessary adjustments. Anyone agree? Cmguy777 (talk) 01:48, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Popular music early 1920's
Why do we have a section on "Popular music early 1920's"? The songs seem unrelated to Harding. There is a separate article on the 1920s, Roaring Twenties. Perhaps it'd be best just to link to that, and include the songs there.  Will Beback   talk    22:48, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I put this in the article to get a sense of the Jazz Age.  Cmguy777 (talk) 00:44, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Moved from article:


 * Swanee, Al Jolson, 1920
 * All the Boys Love Mary, Van & Schenck, 1920 -- Prohibition.
 * Crazy Blues, Mamie Smith & Her Jazz Hounds, 1920 -- Female African American artist.
 * Ain't We Got Fun, Van & Schenck, 1921
 * Arkansas Blues, Lucille Hegamin & Her Blue Flame Syncopaters, 1921 -- Female African American artist.


 * Thanks. That will enrich the Twenties article and keep this one more focused.   Will Beback    talk    01:12, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Alaska Trip
Is there anymore information on President Harding's trip to Alaska. Photos or postcards seem to be the only reliabe source for President Harding in Alaska. My concern is where did the President go first and then next in chronological order. Is their any record of Harding's whereabouts in Alaska? Cmguy777 (talk) 05:52, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I found a web site giving President Harding's travel log. I plan to incorporate this into the article.  Also, the term "Trip to Alaska" needs to be changed to "Western travels".  This more accurately reflects his travels throughout the Western United States, Alaska, and Canada. Cmguy777 (talk) 02:33, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Photos and postcards are, at best, primary sources. We should avoid using them except to illustrate material already found in secondary sources. While things were obviously different 90 years ago, this is still just a presidential trip. Even Harding probably took many. We should avoid giving it excess weight.   Will Beback    talk    03:03, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I found the site that listed where President Harding went from a secondary source. Since Harding was a President of the United States, I do not consider his western journey trip "just a  presidential trip".  I am unware of any other President taking a trip as extensive to Alaska as President Harding, particularly taking three cabinet members.  The photos seem to be the only records that show what President Harding was doing.  This was the first time a President went to Alaska and Canada.  The trip is also signifigant since this was the last one President Harding would take.  There was the emotional strain of an impending scandal in addition to the physically demands of his extensive trip on the ocean and railroad. This was the first time a President met a Sitka chief in Alaska.  I do not consider that an insignifigant event.  President Harding also completed the Alaska railroad.  I also added the purposes of President Harding's trip to Alaska and the findings. Had President Harding lived he would have had the satisfaction of labor getting a 12-hour day. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:29, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If the house painting and the sidewalk walking are as significant as you say, then they will have been covered in secondary sources. There are several biographies of the man, have you checked those? The idea that some facts of Harding's life which can only be documents in a handful of photos are significant enough to include in a short biography, but are not significant enough to have appeared in book-length bios doesn't make any sense.    Will Beback    talk    06:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * If Wikipedia is just an outlet for Harding biographies, and there are very few of those, then there is limited information on President Harding. Is there a rule that Wikipedia must get all their sources from biographers. Biographers can be protective or subjective in their choice of information presented.  Why should Wikipedia only be limited to the text, preferences, or whims of biographers?  A secondary source claims that President Harding was in Willow, Alaska.  The website where the photo was taken says President Harding painted a house of a railroad worker in Willow, Alaska.  This information should not be contingent on whether some biographer covered it in their biography of President Harding.  The photo demonstrates the character of Harding that no writer could express.  He is on a scaffold with a pipe in his mouth painting another man's house in Alaska.  He has less then a month to live due to heart failure.  Remember this is President Harding in charge of the United States armed forces, foreign and domestic policy painting a man's house in the Alaska frontier.  That is signifigant. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:02, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * His walking in Skagway, Alaska is signifigant because this is the first time and only time a President of the United States walked in Skagway with his wife holding an American flag. There is no record of any other President of the United States visiting Skagway that I know of. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:05, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
 * The photos are signifigant because Mrs. Harding destroyed 6/7 of Hardings papers. In essence, the photos are all we have left of President Harding and increases their historical value.  1/7 of the papers left has not been released to the public, except Harding's speeches.  Also, on this Western trip this was the first time a President's train had electronic loud speakers put in so President Harding could make speeches from the Presidencial train. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:20, 9 February 2011 (UTC)


 * If you Will Beback believe that Pres. Harding painting the house in Willow, Alaska and walking on the wooden plank sidewalk in Skagway is insignifigant, I can put in the talk page. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Every president, indeed every person, does things that no one else has done. That doesn't mean we report all of those activities. Wikipedia has a couple of core rules for determining content. I know they get mentioned a lot, and so it's easy to ignore them as just words or acronyms, but they really do matter. There are three main ones, neutral point of view, verifiability, and no original research. Have you read them? I think if you do you'll see why this material is not up to Wikipedia standards.   Will Beback    talk    08:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)


 * I have read the Wikipedia rules you mentioned. Wikipedia tells people to be bold when making edits.   One rule is to be polite to other Wikipedia editors.  There is no original research.  I used the information given on the website in a neutral point of view.Cmguy777 (talk) 16:19, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Removed from article:


 * While on tour in Skagway the President and his party walked on a wooden plank sidewalk with Mrs. Harding carrying the United States Flag.


 * While in Willow, President Harding stood atop a scaffold and painted an Alaska Railroad worker's new house. Cmguy777 (talk) 16:28, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Death mystery?
Wasn't there a conspiracy theory that he'd been drugged? 109.157.234.103 (talk) 17:10, 17 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Are there any reliable sources to substantiate that such a theory exists?--JayJasper (talk) 18:48, 17 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Good to bring up. There was conspiracy theory prompted by a convicted convict Gaston  Means.  Means claimed Mrs. Harding poisoned President Harding because he had an affair with Nan Britton.  Mrs. Harding loved the President.  She was deeply affected by his death.  Harding was her ticket to fame as well as others, including Dr. Sawyer.  Why kill the guy that was putting food on the table?  They did everything they could to keep President Harding alive.  Harding had a staff of doctors to take care of him.  I am not a medical doctor, however, my guess that if Harding lived today he would have been in the operating room ASAP getting open heart surgery (the first one was done in 1950!) or some modern medical procedure that had to do with the internal parts of the heart. Doctors could repair stab wounds to the heart during Harding's time, but that was about it.  A successful mitral stenosis operation was done in 1925, but that was approximately two years after Harding's death.  One site inferred that one of Harding's valves gave out causing sudden death.    Without an autopsy no one will ever really know what Harding died of. Remember this is 1923.  If anything killed Harding it was lack of technology to save his life.  Also, Harding was severely sick before he left on the trip West. Again, I am not a medical doctor and these are only speculations. Cmguy777 (talk) 06:45, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Votes needed
Votes are needed on the Thomas Jefferson talk page, (1st section) Gwillhickers (talk) 02:24, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Visit to Nunavut?
Did President Harding ever visit the Canadian territory of Nunavut? If so it should be noted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.23.85 (talk) 00:57, 25 January 2011 (UTC)


 * I am not sure. I would have to look at the research. Cmguy777 (talk) 03:03, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
 * The visit to Alaska is obviously noteworthy. But is it really important to his bio to say that he helped painted a worker's house or walked down a sidewalk? Are these facts covered in any secondary sources?    Will Beback    talk    01:11, 6 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Those have been taken from the article. Cmguy777 (talk) 05:38, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Personal controversies
The "Personal controversies" section needs to be cleaned up. There is an article in the Washington Post by Carl Sferrazza Anthony titled, " A President Of the Peephole ". According to this article Harding's affairs go beyond just two women. If the Washington Post and Anthony are reliable sources, then the WP article could be used in this article. Apparently, President Harding had an "addiction" to young women and sex. I believe the subject matter can be discussed appropriately without sensationalism. Cmguy777 (talk) 17:10, 22 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Removed from article:


 * Harding's personal controversies and presidential scandals significantly degraded his reputation, as did muckracking and mythmaking by historians. Exaggerated rumors spread of Harding's sexual exploits and the Ohio Gang's other alleged illegal activity which eventually overwhelmed Harding's successes as President. However, ultimate responsibility for the Harding scandals, both presidential and personal, belongs to Harding himself: a man with excellent political ability and traits mixed with deep character flaws. The central question that remains for historians is how much Harding knew concerning the scandals. He did know about Charles Forbes and Jess W. Smith's criminal allegations, however, he did not know about Albert B. Fall and the Teapot Dome scandal. He had angry talks with both Forbes and Smith, but did not force either of them to resign. Forbes, however, rather than face immediate trial, was allowed by Harding to travel to Europe, where he eventually voluntarily resigned as director. Harding replaced Forbes with a reformer who cleaned up the Veterans Bureau.
 * Sources: Graff, p. 339; Dean (2004), Warren G. Harding, p. 141

Postage section should be removed
The section on US postage and Warren Harding should be removed. Although it is interesting that Harding has been in 5 series of stamps, this isn't worthy of an encyclopedia. To contrast Harding showing up on a stamp in 1923 after one month with Lincoln appearing on a stamp by 1865 (one year after his death) is a testament to modernization of postage and growth of the US post office system and stamp production, in general, not some statement about the affection of Warren Harding vis-a-vis Abraham Lincoln. To suggest the same is preposterous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.127.50.100 (talk) 19:32, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Naming trend
Most blogs would not be suitable for an assertion like this, but I'd be inclined to accept a "Ohio Historical Society Blog". Any objections?  Will Beback   talk    09:17, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
 * It is even thought that Harding sparked a naming trend during his presidency.
 * Ohio Historical Society Blog: Did Harding Start a Baby Name Trend?
 * added
 * None here. I reworded the sentence and expanded the citation. —ADavidB 17:37, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Good Article nomination
Is there any chance the Warren G. Harding article can get to a GA status? What needs to be done to get started in order to improve the quality of the article? Cmguy777 (talk) 01:27, 13 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Based on previous GA noms, I would suggest removing the recently added section on Rumors etc as lacking RS. Also, while the papers destruction by Mrs. H may be of note, I think it will be found to be overemphasized by devoting a section to it. Hoppyh (talk) 12:35, 21 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, I think reviewers will want images to be removed where there is insufficient room in the section to which they relate. Hoppyh (talk) 12:39, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

President Harding's Views on Race
The general view, and the Wiki entry seems to accept it, is that Harding took a courageous or principled stand in his Birmingham speech when he spoke out against lynching (26 October 1921). But researching the black newspapers, as well as reading the speech verbatim from the Christian Science Monitor (27 October 1921), it seems we need a more nuanced view, or perhaps one that puts his speech in more of a historical context. Yes, the speech was considered controversial, and some white southern senators opposed even his suggestion that blacks and whites deserved equal educational opportunities. But I'd like to add some context from the black press-- and although I do not know how to do so in correct Wikipedia style (I'm a very good media historian, but alas, a neo-Luddite. I have never figured out how to do the footnote thing with the proper Wikipedia coding. I only know how to do internal footnotes and then write out where I found the quote).

So, may I (or could someone else) add some reaction from the black press? The main problem black commentators saw was that Harding seemed totally accepting of segregation. In fact, in the speech, he said he did not believe there should be "racial amalgamation." The Monitor picked up on this, titling the article "President's Views on Race Problem" but sub-heading the article "Negro should have Political and Economic Equality, But Not in Social or Racial Matters, Mr. Harding Says in Alabama." In the speech, Harding advocated for better educational opportunities for blacks, but his reasoning was that such education would help black people to develop their own leaders who would better understand the need for racial and social segregation, which he said was "natural," based on their distinct differences; but within each race, the members could still have high aspirations and the desire to achieve them within their own societies.

But what really upset the black press was the following quote, which I hope some nice editor will help me to add to Wikiquotes:

"The black man should seek to be, and he should be encouraged to be, the best possible black man and not the best possible imitation of a white man." (quoted in the Christian Science Monitor, 27 October 1921, p. 2)

So, I'd be eager to enhance the entry, not to insult Mr. Harding's memory but to enhance the information students have about what President Harding said, and how both the white and black audiences of his day reacted to it. DonnaHalper (talk) 19:51, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


 * This is an interesting statement. What black newspapers ridiculed this statement?  There may be more then one way to interpret this statement.  Was Harding telling black men to be themselves, have self respect, and not be there to please the white man through their imitations of white men?  The best thing would be to find what black newspapers disliked that statement and why the statement was controversial. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * To put his historical speech in context would suggest that President Harding did a very brave thing. He went to the heart of the Solid South and talked on black equality.  Remember lynching at this time in the United States was between 60 to 57 persons a year.  No President had ever traveled to the South and talked on black equality.  This was 1921 when KKK was at it's height in terms of membership.  Harding should be noted for supporting and speaking out on black equality or civil rights where other President's dared not go. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:34, 5 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I got the CS article. The article stated that blacks applauded him wildly when he spoke on economic equality. Cmguy777 (talk) 23:53, 4 August 2011 (UTC)


 * I made changes to the article and added information that Harding was not for racial mixing on miscegenation. Harding was the first 20th Century President to view the race problem was both national and international issue. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:32, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Images overcrowded
I moved the Perryville station photo into the talk page. Attempting to reduce photos in the "Veterans Bureau" scandal section. The photo had less historical signifigance then the Forbes and Dr. Sawyer photos. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC) File:Perryville PWB Station.JPG|thumb|center|225px|Veterans' Bureau director Charles R. Forbes defrauded the U.S. government millions of dollars at the Perryville depot.

I have moved the following image to reduce overcrowding in the Presidency section. File:Warren Harding video montage.ogg|thumb|Motion picture footage of US President Warren G. Harding. Hoppyh (talk) 00:24, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I have moved the following image from the Joint Session section which has insufficient room. Image:Harding-address-Coolidge-Gillett.jpg|thumb|President Harding addresses a joint session of Congress in April 1921: Calvin Coolidge and Frederick H. Gillett seated behind. [[User:Hoppyh|Hoppyh (talk) 00:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Home in Marion Ohio Photo
This photo has been moved to the talk page. A photo during the time period had been added. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:07, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Harding Photo life legacy
Moved this photo to the talk page. The photo, overcrowds the legacy section. There is also what appears to be a "flash reflection" in the photo. Cmguy777 (talk) 22:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)



Alaska trip
I'll look it over in more detail when I have more time. Specifically, Tanana, Alaska is nowhere near either previously or currently existing rail infrastructure. Perhaps you're confusing the village of Tanana (near the mouth of the Tanana River) with the Tanana Valley (which typically describes the area along the Tanana River surrounding Fairbanks, considerably upriver from there).RadioKAOS (talk) 22:47, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks RadioKAOS. Noted. Cmguy777 (talk) 01:10, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Cmguy777 (talk) 01:10, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Harding Memorial photo
Moved to talk page. Replaced with earlier black and white photo. Cmguy777 (talk) 19:31, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Historical rankings section removal
I suggest removing Harding's historical rankings since historians are reevalutating President Harding's presidency in office. Any objections? Cmguy777 (talk) 06:51, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Regardless of how Harding's presidency is now considered, he was long placed among the poorest in overall ranking. The section provides sources for its claims, and its second paragraph covers his more recent rankings.  I think the section's content should remain. —ADavidB 16:22, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Lead is too long
MOS:LEAD suggests 3 or 4 paragraphs for an article of this length. (See WP:LEADLENGTH) I suggest trimming the lead by about 1/3rd while giving due weight to the various sections in the article. Thoughts?
 * This comment did not appear properly due to an errant character in the closing gallery tag. As such, it did not append the user's signature, but rather it tried to append my signature when I corrected the problem.  I'd suggest that this user re-post/re-sign. RadioKAOS  –&#32; Talk to me, Billy  21:31, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Hope my shortened lede (Feb. 19th 2013) is appropriate. 109.157.18.114 (talk) 19:13, 19 February 2013 (UTC)


 * No. The lead appears to have been hacked. Harding had scandals. However, this is not a place to vent a personal grudge against a President of the United States. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:34, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Cause of Death Section Is a Whitewash
Though in poor health, Harding went on an extended westward tour, with a compulsive agenda of speeches and meetings. He stayed up all hours on the train, playing cards, talking, playing cards, speaking. . . Even from the account given in this article, one gets the impression that this behavior was bizarre, particularly since the re-election campaign season was far in the future (by the standards of those days). It cries out for an explanation, which this article does not provide. This man appeared to be panicking inwardly. The usual guess is that Harding was staying away from Washington, trying to keep occupied, because of concern over some new scandal, or perhaps the many scandals finally reaching him personally. 69.119.169.59 (talk) 10:39, 20 February 2013 (UTC)captcrisis


 * Whitewash? Harding's doctor thought getting away from Washington would improve his health. What would have improved Harding's health may have been a triple bipass heart surgery, however, I am not a doctor. Harding was dying. This may have been his last hurrah. How is playing cards on a train bizzare behavior? Harding may not have been able to sleep very good due to his apparent heart condition. His travel to Alaska and Canada was a historical first for a President. Harding cleaned up the Veterans Bureau, and unknown is if Harding would have cleaned up the Attorney General office and the Justice department. Cmguy777 (talk) 04:32, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Raising Harding to Master Mason
As I understand, Harding had been initiated years ago, but failed to advance due to a member of his lodge blocking him from moving on-- not a normal happening, but not totally unheard of. I think I read in a biography this might have been because the member believed rumors of Harding's possible African-American ancestry. Anyway, with Harding's national profile, it became embarrassing to the Masons that he hadn't been allowed to take his degrees (to be considered a full member of freemasonry, you must be a Master Mason), so the black-balling member absented himself, and the advancement occurred. Does someone have access to something that can be referred to for the story? The current sentence doesn't quite capture the subtlety of the situation.PhilD86 (talk) 23:32, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Burial
'Their remains were re-interred December 20, 1927, at the newly completed Harding Memorial in Marion in 1931.'
 * Something wrong here. I believe they were re-interred somewhere else, before being re-re-interred at the Memorial. Valetude (talk) 14:56, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
 * PS -  'Until the completion of the Harding Tomb, her body lay with that of her husband in the common receiving vault at Marion's city cemetery.' Valetude (talk) 23:57, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Lead is POV
The lead is too long, and it reads like a Harding campaign advertisement.John Paul Parks (talk) 15:04, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you any specific suggestions to improve matters? William Avery (talk) 12:26, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it has become unbalanced. Someone seems to have got an agenda to rescue Harding's reputation, but they've overdone it, and the favourable comments are out of proportion. Valetude (talk) 05:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I have straightened it out for the most part, though I did not really focus on length. POV flag removed. Hoppyh (talk) 14:20, 15 June 2013 (UTC)


 * In my opinion there needs to be some correction in the assessment of Harding such as John W. Dean's book on Warren G. Harding (2004). Harding himself was not personally involved in the finincial corruption. 03:50, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I reworked the lede. Note that POV means giving too much attention to offbeat views, and that does not happen here.  John Dean is amusing--he is not a historian and got the assignment because he was a leader of corruption under Nixon -- then he talked to Congress.  America demands that presidents take a vigorous proactive stance regarding corruption.  Not knowing about it is a very poor excuse (see Obama and the VA today). Rjensen (talk) 04:13, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I am taking a risk here. Respectfully, the George W. Bush article barely mentions the massive cost of the Iraq War, loans from China, corporate profiteering, nor Bush or his administration allegedly misleading the people about weapons of mass destruction. Why do some Presidents get better treatement then other Presidents? Theodore Roosevelt had massive corruption in his administration but nobody talks about that. For that matter James Buchanan had massive corruption in his Presidency. Again no mention. The Abraham Lincoln administration started the Crédit Mobilier, a company that had massive fraud, and there is no mention of this in Lincoln's article. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:02, 26 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Another issue is that the American people can not directly vote for the Presidency. The Electoral college votes for the Presidency so the candidates tend to campaign in states where there is the highest electoral vote. Such as Kennedy in Texas and the TFX fighter program. Cmguy777 (talk) 21:05, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Our job is to report what the RS actually say. I don't believe that "Theodore Roosevelt had massive corruption in his administration" --it certainly odd that his opponents (Parker, Taft, Wilson, Debs) overlooked it, and all those historians as well. The Repuiblicans made a HUGE deal out of corruption under Buchanan. Rjensen (talk) 22:59, 26 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Good discussion. By the way Rjensen, your editing on the Warren G. Harding lede looks great! Reform seems hard to come by in Washington D.C. Party politics and a spoils system of some sort always seem to get in the way. Cmguy777 (talk) 00:51, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Hurray for Allan Nevins
I am delighted that Cmguy777 added Allan Nevins / Dictionary of American Biography. Nevins for 50 years has been my #1 favorite historian. Rjensen (talk) 06:57, 27 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Your welcome Rjensen! Malone put in charge Nevins of Harding's biography! A bold move! In reading the article Nevins is actually fair to Harding and gives allot of insight into his adminstration. Cmguy777 (talk) 14:04, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Here are some brief biographies of Malone and Nevins Cmguy777 (talk) 14:18, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
 * 175 Makers of History: Dumas Malone
 * Allan Nevins

ref probs
Several of the refs are messed up, eg, #2, Ingalls (1974), has no antecedent nor can it be matched with anything in the Bibliography. 70.131.150.169 (talk) 05:20, 13 December 2014 (UTC)
 * I fixed it--the cite was to Woodward, Comer Vann. Responses of the Presidents to Charges of Misconduct 1974. Rjensen (talk) 06:21, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Media portrayals
Starting a new discussion, as we now have consensus to remove the Daily Show but have started to discuss the "Media portrayals" section.

While I'm leaning toward taking out the "media portrayals" section, I'm not going to argue strongly and am fine with it either way. I'd say we certainly do not have consensus for removing this section, and suggest putting it back in until such time as we do have consensus. Kendall-K1 (talk) 15:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd like to see it stay out and I feel strongly about it. As pointed out in the section above, normally consensus has to be developed for inclusion, not deletion, so I'll not restore it until consensus here agrees to do so. Most US President articles don't have such a section, and those that do (John Quincy Adams, Andrew Jackson, Theodore Roosevelt) have one very short paragraph. Cultural depictions of Abraham Lincoln is a separate article, and except for the link to that page no mention of media portrayals appears in the AL good article page. Same with Cultural depictions of John F. Kennedy. So far as I can tell, no good or featured class article on US presidents contains such a section. I would have no problem with Cultural depictions of Warren G. Harding, but do not want to see the section restored to this space. BusterD (talk) 19:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC) Page created. BusterD (talk) 19:41, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks fine. The only problem I have with the daughter article is that the editing history has been lost but not sure if that's fixable... Shearonink (talk) 19:46, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Good catch. Thanks for reminding me. BusterD (talk) 19:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)