Talk:Watch City Steampunk Festival

=Potential COI Disclosure= I attend this event and have participated as a programmer on a volunteer basis. I believe I have sourced all assertion to document WP:NPOV and am prepared to discuss any concerns. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 16:51, 11 January 2012 (UTC) =Two events called International Steampunk City?=
 * I am concerned about this entry as it stands. The first International Steampunk City was organized by a certain event management team at Waltham as stated, which eventually for whatever reason, chose to part ways with that team.  It seems as if that the museum/city is going on with a 2nd year event whereas the people behind International Steampunk City are going on with an event elsewhere.  Surely wikipedia shouldn't be the arbiter of the disagreement on what the "international steampunk city" is.  It would be like the ray's pizza article pointing only to one location or chain. Centerone (talk) 07:49, 26 February 2012 (UTC)
 * It is a matter of history that the 2011 International Steampunk City event occurred in Waltham under the direction of CRMI in the person of Ms. Ellen Hagny. If there are now two unrelated events calling themselves "International Steampunk City" (and it seems there are two -- http://internationalsteampunkcitywaltham.com, which appears to be calling itself The Watch City Festival, still under the direction of CRMI, and http://internationalsteampunkcity.com/ which is running in Morristown, NJ.  It seems to me that:
 * This article should become "The Watch City Festival" with a note that in 2011 it was known as "International Steampunk City"
 * Someone should create an article for International Steampunk City -- if it currently has enough verifiable sources to warrant its own page. That page should note that it is completely unrelated to the 2011 event.  If there isn't enough basis for an ISC page, the ISC should redirect to TWCF.
 * If there are two pages, there should be cross referencing between them so that there readers are not confused about which is which.
 * Whether one of them is has a more "legitimate" claim to the name "International Steampunk City" seems to me to depend on whether one of the management teams owns such a trademark. Thoughts?Holzman-Tweed (talk) 04:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Addendum: From http://internationalsteampunkcitywaltham.com  "Steampunk City and International Steampunk City, the Steampunk City and International Steampunk City logo, and other names, logos, icons and marks identifying Steampunk City and International Steampunk City products and services are trademarks of Charles River Museum of Industry & Innovation and may not be used without the acquisition of prior written permission from the Charles River Museum of Industry & Innovation." (Emphasis added)  I do not see any such assertion of trademark at http://internationalsteampunkcity.com/.  Given that state of affairs, I don't see how International Steampunk City can appropriately take anyone anyplace except to a page regarding the Waltham/CRMI event.  Thoughts?Holzman-Tweed (talk) 19:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Since neither you nor I probably have information on who actually coined and established International Steampunk City, I do not believe that we can make a judgement based solely on a claim. People can assert claims to trademarks on anything they like.  I could, for instance, make a claim that your name is my trademark, that doesn't make it true.  I personally am more inclined to believe that the person or entity who coined the concept/name was an entity that clearly 1) already knew what steampunk was prior to the establishment of the event and 2) registered the domain name and established a business relationship with another entity, prior to that 2nd entities' use of the term. I personally think the claims being made are that of an entity trying to take advantage of the situation, and could easily be made by the other entity too.  Just because they are not doing the best job of protecting their intellectual property doesn't mean that their claim for it isn't valid. Centerone (talk) 07:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Who coined the term, who used the term first, and who knows more about Steampunk doesn't matter in a discussion of who currently owns a trademark. Nor does what you or I believe, but what claims are made and what can be verified. Asserting a trademark falsely opens someone up to legal liability from the trademark's actual owner.  It's probably worth seeing if we can verify the trademark registration -- I'll do some research into that.  (Also, doing a poor job of protecting a trademark actually does mean that the trademark can be lost.  The question at this point is who has the trademark.)Holzman-Tweed (talk) 11:46, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
 * There is no current registration attempt for "International Steampunk City" -- there is only a claim being made. (I'm actually surprised by the large number of trademark registrations for steampunk in one form or another... at least 19 when I last checked.)  One can claim a trademark to anything, it doesn't make it true, accurate, or protectable. Centerone (talk) 20:27, 17 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Per the Waltham web page, their event -- but not their URL -- has been renamed "Watch City Festival." I propose to move this page to Watch City Festival and make International Steampunk City a redirect to that event until such time as there is enough notability to support an entry for the Speedwell event, at which point "International Steampunk City" should become a disambiguation page.  (Before that notability is established, we can't put it anywhere -- to use your example, the Ray's Pizza page does not list every single establishment that called itself Ray's Pizza.)  What do you think? Holzman-Tweed (talk) 19:33, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "International Steampunk City" is notable due to coverage in RSes.. the first ISC happened to be at Waltham.  It's success is most likely due to the efforts of the folks behind internationalsteampunkcity.com even if for whatever reason the Waltham folks chose to part ways with them after all the work was pretty much done.  Waltham is building a new event based on the formula of and repeating the previous years event.  The people behind the initial first year event have chosen to move the event somewhere else this year, and I assume will possibly continue that pattern.  I suggest that we keep the page as it is and cover the two events, making note of the controversy and confusion.  Then, when and if the Waltham and the other event gets enough coverage, then at least one of them can possibly spin off into its own entry/page. Centerone (talk) 20:41, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what "RSes" stands for. If you have to use the phrase "most likely" to describe role the folks behind internationalsteampunkcity had in ISC 2011's success, you're speculating unless you have verifiable claims from reputable sources to back it up.  The 2012 Watch City Festival is verifiably the successor event to 2011 International Steampunk City: Same people running it in the same location for the benefit of the same museum.  Nor is it accurate to imply that the people who actually ran ISC 2011 are not the people behind it -- If there are people who were involved in ISC 2011 who are now involved in the Speedwell event, that's a fact that can be included in an article about the Speedwell event if verifiable.  If you want to assert continuity between the 2011 Waltham ISC and the 2012 Speedwell ISC, that's going to have to be documented.  ISC 2011 is the Waltham Event, and as such it is already has sufficient notability. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 04:54, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

These seem to be two intersecting topics and should be split into two articles, assuming there are sufficient reliable sources (RSes) to support two articles. Unfortunately, what happens in splits is that the new event can't possibly be notable until it actually occurs and gets covered in the media. If the media called the 2011 event "International Steampunk City", then that's how this article should be titled and how the subject should be introduced. The first bolded term should match the title of the article. Then this article should continue to cover ISC, regardless of who puts it on. If third-party sources verify that the 2011 event was put on or coordinated by "Waltham City Festival", then that should be mentioned in the article, but it sounds like they are not at all the same thing, so it shouldn't be mentioned in the lead sentence or bolded. If there are not yet sources to support an article on WCF, then it could be redirect here until there are. (Note: I haven't read any of the sources yet, and though I worked in Waltham in the early '80s, don't know anything about this event (though of course I have heard of the Charles River Museum :-), so its possible I've misunderstood the situation). Yworo (talk) 15:26, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The 2011 International Steampunk City was put on by CRMI and the person in charge of it was CRMI executive director Ellen Hagny, as documented by the sources in the article. For 2012, CRMI has changed the name of International Steampunk City to "Watch City Festival," as evidenced by the fact that that is the name of the event found when one goes to internationalsteampunkcitywaltham.org.  There is also an event calling itself "International Steampunk City" being put on for the benefit of Historic Speedwell, with a webp page at internationalstempunkcity.com, and according to that web page Historic Speedwell is working with Jeff Mach.  That event is in no way affiliated with CRMI or the 2011 International Steampunk City. Jeff Mach had been involved in the planning of ISC 2011, but parted ways with CRMI several weeks before the event took place.  (There are conflicting details regarding the exact details of that parting.  I have seen some primary sources, but no reliable sources, address the topic.)  I'll update the article to reflect your advice. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 18:11, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I should add that the reason I don't simply add a paragraph about the announced 2012 Historic Speedwell event is that I have no RSes for an event for the benefit of 2012 Historic Speedwell being put on by Jeff Mach -- that's the event that hasn't taken place yet, and won't until October, according it its web page. Holzman-Tweed (talk) 18:24, 20 March 2012 (UTC)


 * An encyclopedia doesn't report on future events. So IMO the article should be about the 2011 ISC and should ignore any developments after that until such time as the next event(s) are held and reported in the media. In particular, affiliated websites can only be used for non-controversial information. The whole name change thing is controversial, and should simply be ignored until the details are available from reliable independent third-party sources. It is not unusual for an encyclopedia to lag the facts. In fact, only being a year outdated is unusual. Ten years behind is more the norm, as most organizations and events don't get much press until they've been around that long. It is not our task to accurately describe future events. In fact, in general, the future should be completely ignored when writing the article. We aren't here to promote or even to inform about future events, but rather to accurately describe the past based on reliable reports about what happened. Yworo (talk) 20:05, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Understood. I will remove references to "Watch City Festival" until it's either non-controversial or referenced by RSes.  To Centerone's initial point, when the Historic Speedwell event is an event in the past with reliable sources to document it, we can figure how to discuss both without creating confusion about who put on which event or which events have continuity between them. I appreciate the advice.Holzman-Tweed (talk) 22:54, 20 March 2012 (UTC)