Talk:Water politics in the Jordan River basin

Changed word order of title
Hope you don't mind AshleyKennedy3. We have an article on Water politics in the Middle East, and I thought this format was more straightforward anyway. Cool with you I hope.  T i a m u t talk 16:42, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Improperly sourced claims
I've moved the following to talk for further discussion: "This action has meant that Israel utilizes all water resources for the agricultural development of the Negev Desert. In 1967 Rafi Rubinstein was able to see the poverty that Israeli policies has caused to the Palestinian citizens of Israel and why the Syrian had fought for the Palestinians cause." As is clear, the first sentence isn't sourced, and the second sentence doesn't actually reflect the source. To begin with, who is Rafi Rubenstein and why would we care what he says? In addition, where does he say that the Syrian motivations have anything to do with "Israeli policies" or why "the Syrian had fought for the Palestinians cause"? He says that Jewish farms were beautiful and lush, and the Arab farms were poor and neglected, and that's why the Syrians kept shooting at the Israelis. That's all he says. Please don't make more of the sources than they actually say, and please ensure you are quoting notable viewpoints. Jayjg (talk) 20:06, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Who's Jayjg and why should I care what his opinion is? The source is good the quote straight out of the book. If you don't like the use of RS sources take it to ANI and I'm quite sure that ANI with not go your way as RS sources are the thing to use....Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 23:36, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The normal procedure when wishing clarification is to place a citation needed tag...Please use normal procedures as otherwise the civility of the actions of the person wishing clarification would be questioned...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 23:52, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please address the issues raised. The quote doesn't support any of the claims for it. Per WP:V, I've removed it pending proper sourcing. Jayjg (talk) 00:02, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

The quote is directly from the book..The normal procedure is other than you suggest....the normal is not deletion first...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The quote may indeed be from the book, but, as explained, the quote doesn't back up the claims, and the source is non-notable. To begin with, the first sentence is entirely unsourced. Next, why do you quote Rafi Rubenstein: can you tell me more about him? Third, even if his opinions were worth noting, where does he say that "Israeli policies" caused "poverty... to the Palestinian citizens of Israel"? He just says that the Israeli farms were lush, and Arabs were not - he doesn't talk about "Israeli policies" at all. Finally, where does he discuss "why the Syrian had fought for the Palestinians cause"? He just says he understands why they took shots at Israelis. Shooting at Israeli farmers is not "fighting for the Palestinians cause". Rather than tendentiously reverting, please answer these questions. Jayjg (talk) 09:14, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

I quote Rafi Rubenstein because his words are kept in archives and used by Segev an RS....Why do you find RS sources not good enough for inclusion in wiki...I demand that you answer the question.... I do agree your reverts are tendentiously reverting most of your reverts on all articles are tendentiously reverting so there is nothing new to your tendentiously reverting method of editing...Your method of editing demands plagiarism...I do not believe that the support that then Palestinians received from Syria is controversial? Do you now say that the Palestinians did not receive support from Syria? That would be a rather strange position to adopt; as the Israeli government statements are littered with quotes about how the Syrians supported the Palestinians....can you please explain your complete reversion of the Israeli historical narrative?..and who is Jayjg why should I compare a nameless none-entity with named historians?...But you are supposed to be talking of the article and trying to improve it so I suggest that instead of tendentiously reverting you go and look up the subject and find some suitable references that say that Israel were the nice guys and not the aggressors that all the references and historian say that Israel were.. If you find that RS sources are not good enough for you may I suggest you go and write a book about how RS sources are not good enough for inclusion in wiki...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:43, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Please address the issue that RSs are not good enough for inclusion in wiki?...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The issue is not whether or not Segev is a reliable source. Rather, the issues are a) the first sentence is entirely unsourced, b) we have no idea who Rafi Rubenstein is, c) the citation you provided doesn't support the claims you have made for it. Do I believe that the Syrians "supported" the Palestinians because of water politics in the Jordan River basin, or because they saw that the Palestinians were poor? No, actually, I don't; I think the Syrians cynically used the Palestinians for their own purposes, as have every Arab government since 1948. More importantly, though, you have not provided sources which back your claims! Now please answer the questions I have asked. Jayjg (talk) 09:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

That was very clever of Jayjg to wipe out the 6 day war...the citiation now does not match the words at all. On June 10th, 1967, the last day of the Six Day War, Golani Brigade forces quickly invaded the village of Banias where a caliphate era Syrian fort stood. Eshkol's priority on the Syrian front was control of the water sources.//Segev, Tom (2007) 1967; Israel and the war that transformed the Middle East Little, Brown ISBN 978-0-316-72478-4 p 399//

what does page 399 say...Yaccov Herzog spent the day in prayer no match

dayan agreed with Odd bull on a cease fire..no match

etc etc no match...in other words what jayjg find acceptable is not acceptable...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 09:52, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what you are talking about. You just deleted the section on the 6 day war, not me. Jayjg (talk) 09:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Answer the question of how RS sources are not good enough for wiki...why should the RS source of some body quotes not be used in wiki?..Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:00, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * See above. The issue is not whether Segev is a reliable. Rather, the issues are a) the first sentence is entirely unsourced, b) we have no idea who Rafi Rubenstein is (and Rubenstein is not Segev), and c) the citation you provided doesn't support the claims you have made for it. Is that clear? Now answer my questions above please. Jayjg (talk) 10:03, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

How little you know is of no importance to me....The quote is from an RS source.. Now tell me why should an un-named none entity jayjg be more important that an RS source?....Oh and the policies are well noted in other RS citations within the article ......Now instead of tendacious deletions try seeking consensus...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * a) Is Rafi Rubenstein a reliable source? b) What is the source for the first sentence? c) The citation you provided doesn't support the claims you have made for it. Respond meaningfully to my questions please. Jayjg (talk) 10:08, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Segev is a RS I havn't used Rafi Rubenstein I've used Tom Segev...why do you find the Segev is not RS? answer the question....Are you setting new criteria for RS? respond meaningfully...Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:22, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Look at this edit: you directly cite Rafi Rubenstein there, by name. What's worse, the claims you make on his behalf are things he never said. I'm not talking about new criteria, I'm talking about the good old ones, WP:V and WP:UNDUE. Jayjg (talk) 10:25, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Now look again I quote from Segev...I am sorry that your comprehension has let you down....as you are not setting new criteria it would seem that you now agree that Segev is an RS source how strange your are tendentiously reverting in that light...looks like you are purposely using tendentious reverting as a policy of disruption...things he never said yet Segev does say it, Rafi Rubenstein may not have but as I'm citing Segev I am providing a synopsis of Segev.... Ashley kennedy3 (talk) 10:41, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh dear. Now you've reverted yet again, and changed the article to say this:
 * Israel carried out a policy of ethnically cleasing the DMZ and forcing the remaining Palestinian citizens of Israel to supply the IDF with agricultural produce at lower than market prices producing poverty. This has been noted by Tom Segev where he quotes Rafi Rubinstein from Yehiam.
 * These are the three sources you use to support the claim:
 * Segev, Tom (2007) Ibid p 398 ''"I saw our kibbutzim, so beautiful, so lush, and, really-it was beautiful. You see all that farming land and you see what a kibbutz is. And with them [the Palestinian citizens of Israel], everything's so neglected, poverty, so much poverty, barbed wire fences and ditches." He was convinced that the view from the Golan Heights had fuelled the Syrian hatred. "It must get to the Arabs. I'm almost certain that was one of the reasons why they kept shooting at us."
 * Shlaim, Avi (2000) ibid pp 71-73 The experts concluded that it [draining the Hula marshes] was not just unnecessary but actually damaging to Israel’s agriculture and ecology
 * UN Doc S/2157Security Council resolution 93 of 18 May 1951: Noting the complaint with regard to the evacuation of Arab residents from the demilitarised zone: (a) Decides that Arab civilians who have been removed from the demilitarised zone by the Government of Israel should be permitted to return forthwith to their homes and that the Mixed Armistice Commission should supervise their return and rehabilitation in a manner to be determined by the Commission; (b) Holds that no action involving the transfer of persons across international frontiers, across armistice lines or within the demilitarised zone should be undertaken without prior decision of the Chairman of the Mixed Armistice Commission; From 1951 Israel refused to attend the meetings of the Israel/Syria Mixed Armistice Commission. This refusal on the part of Israel not only constituted a flagrant violation of the General Armistice Agreement, but also contributed to an increase of tension in the area. The Security Council itself strongly condemned the attitude of Israel, in its resolution of 18 May 1951, as being "inconsistent with the objectives and intent of the Armistice Agreement"
 * How do these citations back up any of the claims made for them? Which ones talk about "ethnic cleansing"? Which ones talk about Israel "forcing the remaining Palestinian citizens of Israel to supply the IDF with agricultural produce at lower than market prices producing poverty." Your latest edit was completely disruptive. Jayjg (talk) 10:59, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

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Syrian Civil War effects
Expanding on recent developments concerning the effect of Syrian Civil War on the Jordan river basin.GreyShark (dibra) 13:17, 24 May 2017 (UTC)