Talk:Waterboarding/Neutrality discussions

This is a special archive of all discussions relating to the disputed neutrality of the lead, not including the "Definition" or "Sources" discussions. Construction progress: Archive 1: ✅ Archive 2: Archive 3: Archive 4: Archive 5: Archive 6: Archive 7: =November 2006=

NPOV - Torture - Subjective? Please weigh in.
This article is incredibly biased. Just the first 6 words are highly contentious: "Waterboarding is a type of torture..."And dunking is not very similar to waterboarding. Nathanm mn 03:05, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

- The reasons cited above make no attempt to explain why this author considers the article to be "incredibly biased", if they want this to be seriously considered, they need to cite reasons and possible remedial action - not just make claims.

Pandora’s box is open, and it is not the mission of Wikipedia to close it.

How can something which is unquestionably a mock execution, as the mind and body believe drowning is imminent, not be torture, as defined by numerous international treaties, ratified by the US and other countries which are also suspected of practicing it?

The fact that current events and revelations are not exactly welcomed by a particular administration does not render it biased per se. Everyone has skeletons in the closet, this one got out - citing the Skelton’s existence is not necessarily biased. I believe this article should be locked until well after the elections, as it is clear that some people are unwilling to get past denial.

Though some are doing great work improving the article, others can’t get past the Torture question. Sufficient international treaties and authoritive opinions have been cited, yet some people for political reasons will not accept that, as they wish to suppress this inconvenient truth as it doesn’t agree with their political philosophy. This should be about logical reasoning, not emotive politics.

There is no question it needs internationalization. Yes, many countries are probably at it, but many countries are not known to be at it, and I’m not aware of any other nation claiming the high moral ground to be facing such well backed allegations. As such I contend this is not a biased article - it could use improvement, but it’s not biased. By improvement, I mean the addition on other modern occurrences and definitions, in addition to the well established content written on the US –which at this stage should just be cleaned up with no more political edits. Pandora’s box is open, deal with it. -


 * I would add that even under the 2002 Justice Department memo (which the Bush administration later disowned) that suggested physical torture "must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death," waterboarding would qualify as torture. If you can find some authoritative Bush Administration source that we can cite that says waterboarding is not torture, I would agree it should be included in the article.--agr 14:27, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Classifying waterboarding as torture is entirely subjective. There's no way to come to a consensus definition of torture, so the article needs to reflect this to stay neutral. Also, the article shouldn't be just about the Bush administration. Aside from the POV parts of the article and ridiculous inclusion of dunking witches, there's some good information in it (though it definitely needs a rewrite). Until someone edits it, I'm putting the NPOV tag back in. Plus, anonyomous user from 24.23.199.240, please register for an account and sign your edits in Talk. Nathanm mn 19:45, 3 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It is not subjective. Torture is defined under U.S. law (Chapter 18 United States Code § 2340. scroll up to see it). There is also a United Nations Convention Against Torture, ratified by 141 countries and any dictionary has a definition. As mentioned in the article, the U.S. accused and convicted a japanese officer of committing torture by waterboarding. Senator John McCain says it is torture. If you are aware of any recognized body that defines torture in a way that excludes waterboarding, we should reference it. There are people who say the Holocaust never happened, that 9/11 was a CIA plot, that NASA faked the Apollo moon landings. We are not required to give marginal views like that equal weight under Wiklipedia's NPOV policy, certainly not without a citable source. Dunking is another mater and I agree the discussion of it, beyond some related to/see also link, belongs elsewhere e.g. water torture.--agr


 * It is not subjective. Torture is well defined in US and International Law. About the only dissenting legal opinions are a few now disowned DoJ memos. If anyone can find any body of law that says clearly this is not torture, speak up and cite your sources, else leave it alone. I contend that the sole governmental agencies who would not define this as torture would be it's practitioners and cheerleaders.


 * An other aspect is being overlooked. When this article keeps getting sanitized by some for the inconvenient truth that it is torture, they tend to use a replacement to state Waterboarding is a form of interrogation. Punishment, maybe - interrogation, no - Interrogation is designed to get someone to reveal truthful answers. Torture will get people to say anything to stop the suffering - and this will take the form of saying what it takes to stop it, whether true or not. Torture is not an interrogation technique. It will get confessions, but worthless ones. This IS torture, this is NOT interrogation, and that is NOT subjective. there is a very large body of evidence to show that torture is not a workable form of interogation, but this is not the article for that issue, this is "What is Waterboarding" Rcnet 06:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Witch dunking is totally out of place, but this is NOT subjective, much as the previous poster reminds about the Holocast, Apollo and others. Would you have Wiki speculate on Elvis's current location because a small amount of people adhere to such faith? Removed NPOV - Cite reasons and evidence why it should be here, or leave it alone. And please remember the body of what you have to overcome:

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984


 * Article 1
 * For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Preparatory Commission for the International Criminal Court (PrepCom) held in New York from June 12 to 30 2000:
 * Article 7 (1) (f)Article 8 (2) (a) (ii)-1
 * War crime of torture
 * Elements
 * 1. The perpetrator inflicted severe physical or mental pain or suffering upon one or more persons.
 * 2. The perpetrator inflicted the pain or suffering for such purposes as: obtaining information or a confession, punishment, intimidation or coercion or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind.
 * 3. Such person or persons were protected under one or more of the Geneva Conventions of 1949.
 * 4. The perpetrator was aware of the factual circumstances that established that protected status.
 * 5. The conduct took place in the context of and was associated with an international armed conflict.
 * 6. The perpetrator was aware of factual circumstances that established the existence of an armed conflict.

Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court
 * Article 7
 * Crimes against humanity
 * (e) "Torture" means the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, upon a person in the custody or under the control of the accused; except that torture shall not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions;

Political opinions, as shown by the lack of explanations and citations do not justify the creation of a Bias tag. Should you overcome these citations with something more authoritive, we'd all be glad to admit error and submit to your opinion that this is biased. Rcnet


 * The definition of torture is subjective. Equating word definitions and historical events is comparing apples and oranges. Words can change meaning over time and mean different things to different cultures and people. Legal definitions add even more complexity. Laws can have multiple interpretations and they only apply in certain jurisdictions. OTOH, facts are--by definition--objective. Even if some people interpret them differently, they can't dispute that they happened (at least without ridicule). As the saying goes "You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts."


 * On a side note, some of the arguments in this Talk are pretty weak:
 * Just making a laundry list of laws and treaties is an example of the logical fallacy of appeal to authority.
 * Any opinions, without being qualified as such, clearly justify the NPOV tag. That's exactly what it was designed for.


 * It's funny that anonymous accused me of trying to suppress this inconvenient truth, since I wasn't suppressing anything. I merely flagged the article with NPOV to draw attention to the problem.


 * As the article reads now, I see no further need for NPOV. In just a few words, Gazpacho changed the tone of the article drastically. I couldn't have written it so concisely, which is why I didn't edit it myself originally. It now sounds mostly neutral, and that's all I was looking for.


 * Oddly, it seems we're all in agreement that witch dunking doesn't belong here. But my main objective has been accomplished. I haven't followed any of the related links, so I don't know what to do with it. I think I'll leave that to others. Nathanm mn 00:12, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * "I think I'll leave that to others.", as shall I. Others, weigh in on subjectivity please. As we aren't a court, and laws will conflict the only option I saw was to climb the ladder as high as it went to avoid legal cherry picking, International Law and treaties which are ratified.

And the witches need to go.Rcnet 01:02, 4 November 2006 (UTC)


 * You've still got to watch out with international law and treaties though. Int'l law isn't just some body of laws that magically obligates everyone on the planet. I'm sure you realize that, but the way its bandied about in the media these days, some people seem to think that way. Also, many countries (notably the US) hold their own laws to supersede int'l law and judges rule that way in the event of a conflict. And just like any law, if they're not enforced, they're worth about as much as the paper they're printed on.


 * The same goes for most treaties. Many countries sign and ratify treaties, then completely ignore them. That's what's happening with the Kyoto Protocol. Many of the countries that signed and ratified it are doing worse with their CO2 emissions than the US. I'm still mildly amused over the uproar when Bush "unsigned" it, since the Senate voted 95-0 against its ratification. Nathanm mn 02:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the first six words of the Intro, I think it's it's pretty clearly POV. It's a POV that I share, mind you, but it's still POV. The fact that there are referenced authorities in positions of power and credibility (perceived or otherwise) on both sides of the question, means that it's POV, especially since it can't be deemed torture by virtue of an entry in a dictionary (Dictionary.com, and The American Heritage Dictionary for example, don't have entries for it). I mean, is there anyone here who argues that it is tortue as a matter of fact? Or diction? If no one can illustrate that idea, then I think a simple compromise would be to reword the Intro to something like, "Waterboarding is a controversial interrogation technique widely believed to be a form of torture." Wouldn't that resolve the POV dispute? Nightscream 06:37, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV rehash
This article seems bound for an edit war. In order to try and avoid one, I added the Controversial tag to the Talk page and NPOV back to the article. Note: Before we get into another argument over whether the article is neutral or not, please actually read the NPOV box. It says: "The neutrality of this article is disputed." It does not say the article is decidely non-neutral, just disputed. It's pretty obvious based on the quantity of edits and animosity of discussion that the neutrality is in dispute. Nathanm mn 07:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Seconded Rcnet 07:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

The torture vs interrogation edit keeps happening and reverting, I do see that far more registered users seem to accept the original definition as being an explicit form of Torture. I propose to revisit that question later this week and remove NPOV if there isn't a significant body of registered users disagreeing. Please speak up users. Both Nathan on one side, and 3 of us on the other will wear each other out editing back and forth, it's pointless. Someone needs to step in. '''ONE ISSUE NEEDS ANSWERING: In view of available sources law, citations, and common sense - is Waterboarding Torture? Yes / No; and if it is not torture - What is it?''' Thus far two users say it is not a form of torture, and is just interogation. Rcnet 07:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

We all seem to agree, as shown by edits that:

Waterboarding xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx simulates drowning by producing a severe gag reflex, making the subject believe his or her death is imminent

We agree it simulates drowning.

No one has expressed issues with

akin to/form of/type of mock execution

Can anyone cite anything which shows mock execution not to be torture?

Ergo it is torture. Rcnet 08:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't think a vote is appropriate. It does not matter what Wikipedia editors' opinions are. If there is a notable source that says waterboarding is not torture, it should be mentioned in the article. We can then contrast that position with others. The problem is that no government official or agency that I am aware of has publicly taken that position (unless you count Cheney's interview). The U.S. Government official position is "no comment". Yesterday I heard the BBC's Owen Bennett Jones interview a U.S. State Department spokesman at some length on the question, and he could not pin him down. Even in the blogsphere, I find more supporters of the Bush Administration who say waterboarding is torture but America needs to use it, nonetheless, than those who argue it isn't torture.  So unless someone can come up with a citation, there is no other viewpoint to discuss. --agr 12:44, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

---

Think of it this way. IF you believe waterboarding IS NOT TORTURE, they you must let YOUR CHILDREN be tied down and waterboarded.

Oh, You're NOT going to let your children be waterboarded?

QED.

---

QED? Hardly. Sorry, the above is ludicrous. Consider the following: "IF you believe monitored house arrest IS NOT TORTURE, then you must let YOUR CHILDREN be subject to monitored house arrest. Oh, You're NOT going to let your children be subjected to monitored house arrest?"

How we would have our children treated is not germane to the discussion of the treatment of POWs, sir.

---

Arguments about whether or not it is torture are completely irrelevant. This article is not meant to be a battleground where one side eventually 'wins' and gets their point of view to be the only one represented. It is meant to inform, and it should do that. Whether or not you believe it's torture, it should be obvious that your view, whichever it is, is not unanimous by any means. Instead of arguing about whether it is in the form of edit wars, we should state that it is in contention and place the *valid* arguments either way in the article; probably under the legality section, or possibly under a new section about its disputed status as torture.

DrkWraith 09:47, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * Here is a quote from Wikipedia's NPOV policy:


 * If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts; If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia (except perhaps in some ancillary article) regardless of whether it is true or not; and regardless of whether you can prove it or not. Views held only by a tiny minority of people should not be represented as significant minority views, and perhaps should not be represented at all.
 * If it is so obvious that the status of waterboarding is contested, it should be easy to find a public source that argues it isn't. We don't, for example, have to say "many people think sex with a child is the crime of statutory rape" just because some pedophiles think is should be legal. --agr 10:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * It is easy. It's a bit bogged down on the internet since I refused to use any of the numerous bloggers as sources, but there's still tons out there. I've used a variety of different links to sources that claim it is not torture. Even the many of the sources you use that claim it is torture acknowledge that others believe it isn't. As for your example, how many people have had to write letters and collecting signatures to argue that statutory rape is in fact a crime? You're using bits of the argument on this as sources, while refusing to admit that there is an argument. Since major news organizations and the government are not valid sources, what should I use?DrkWraith 18:43, 22 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The opinion of a regime or one of its constituent organizations that practices torture, as stating that it is not torture is utterly useless as a source. Of course "anonymous sources" (maybe Cheney will name them again) within the CIA or executive wish to change its characterization as torture, after all they are the ones facing a retirement in the Hague. Anyway this is all moot, the regime has NOT said it is not torture. Anonymous Source is No Source, as it bears no credibility. 71.204.133.75 04:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)


 * The U.S. government has never publically taken the position the waterboarding isn't torture. There certainly has been lots of innuendo and I left in the ABC story that cited annon sources saying the CIA does not deem it torture. --agr 23:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Proposal for Resolution
It's clear something needs to change. I along with many other supporters of the torture definition would not agree with it simply being removed, or becoming "widespread claims", perhaps we could create a new section under the definition, linked to the definition, leaving the sources for and against it being torture. I can't see how anyone could think it otherwise in light of the evidence, but that is a POV.

OR...

We all know, that what is now a slow moving round of reversions, will eventually become an edit war, leading to a locked article, which one view or the other will disprove of. I personally do not want to throw dice as to the outcome.

I propose:
 * We archive all non-active parts of this talk page to a sub page (it's already too big)
 * Create a discussion, and a proposition section.
 * Post proposed edits here for comment, in a proposition section.
 * Allow at least a week before making a proposition live.
 * The below moderators, and others, would revert and guard the 1st two paragraphs from edits which do not stem from this "slow down, resolve, and improve" editing process.
 * ArnoldReinhold & Gazpacho should admin the release from draft, as both are active here, and both have used reason and TALK to help advance this article.
 * Everyone should participate.

This should reduce the reversion level, and will inevitably produce a better all round replacement. 24.23.199.240 05:28, 7 November 2006 (UTC) Rcnet, (not logged in...)


 * FYI I'm not active, even if my contribs suggest otherwise. Gazpacho 09:14, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Nathan? Rcnet 12:48, 7 November 2006 (UTC)


 * The article has been pretty stable for the last few days, so i am not sure any more that the ordinary editorial give and take plus discussion here is needed. If that changes, maybe your proposal should be followed. I'd be happy to see a "he said, she said" controversy section on whether waterboarding is torture. The problem is a lack of citable sources that take the position that it is not. The U.S. government simply refuses to comment. The Vice-president did comment but then denied that he was talking about waterboarding. I'd be happy to quote a Senator or even a Wall Street Journal editorial that said it wasn't torture, but I haven't found one. There is a whole other viewpoint that says torture may be justified in extreme circumstances, but that doesn't help the "it's POV to call it torture" position.


 * By all accounts waterboarding causes severe suffering and creates a fear of imminent death. That is squarely within the three legal definitions cited, as well as the dictionary definitions I've checked. Even if some country does not accept the jurisdiction of certain international laws, they still express the opinion of humanity as a whole. And one of the legal cites is to American law. The view that the law has no meaning once the lawyers get hold of it is quite cynical and not the accepted view of society. The U.S. definition of torture (18 USC 2340) is part of the criminal code and it is a basic principal that everyone is supposed to understand the clear meaning of criminal statues. Ignorantia juris non excusat. --agr 00:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Nicely put. Looks stable now, it seems election fever has passed, whew! With no one prepared to cite a usable source saying it is not torture, we can even consider losing the NPOV tag? Rcnet 23:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Maybe comment out the tag with a note saying if you want to put it back please cites source for other opinion. --agr 15:32, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the first six words of the Intro, I think it's it's pretty clearly POV. It stood out to me before I even read this Talk Page. It's a POV that I share, mind you, but it's still POV. The fact that there are referenced authorities in positions of power and credibility (perceived or otherwise) on both sides of the question, means that it's POV, especially since it can't be deemed torture by virtue of an entry in a dictionary (Dictionary.com, and The American Heritage Dictionary for example, don't have entries for it). I mean, is there anyone here who argues that it is tortue as a matter of fact? Or diction? If no one can illustrate that idea, then I think a simple compromise would be to reword the Intro to something like, "Waterboarding is a controversial interrogation technique widely believed to be a form of torture." Wouldn't that at leat resolve the dispute over that passage? Let me know what you think. Nightscream 06:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

No one has offered any referenced authorities to say it is not torture though - that's the point, plus it's more than interogation - in fact it's a weak case that it is indeed interogation henc ethe inclusion of punishment. If someone can cite any referenced authorities saying it is not torture speak up. Rcnet 08:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)


 * It's boiled down to the fact that there is no one willing to offer any sources, references or citations against the definition being used here, we've been asking for weeks; including during the very active (and emotional) period when the US wiki editors were in the midst of a volatile election. Hence I reverted; I will even go on to suggest that the POV tag be removed if much more time passes without anyone offering any sort of case against the definition. Thus far (I do not include Nightscream, who gave it a fair crack) the legions wishing to make this more politically palatable to the US audience (and future judges?) have been unable to offer any case against this definition. Speak up people. Rcnet 08:51, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The only argument I see to saying that Waterboarding is not torture is that torture is subjective. However, supposing that torture is actually subjective is quite problematic; as it would then require saying whose viewpoint one is ascribing to when calling something torture. Furthermore, the word torture is not by default subjective; that is to say that to posit such requires an argument as to why it should so be; although a feelings about torture are subjectuve, and it seems to me that the subjective argument people are actually talking about this. Lastly, even subjective words have some scope and are not completely ambigous, they have meaning, thus given a subjective class there are some things that neccesarily fall in it. Hence, my question would be what acts would you say are definitely torture? In what way do they differ from waterboarding? --Phoenix1177 19:53, 16 November 2006 (UTC)Phoenix1177

Removed NPOV, no one offered any sources, references, or anything that challenges the current definition. We have been asking over and over again here. Rcnet 05:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

=May-July 2007=

POV issues
This article, especially the lead, is way too suggestive of waterboarding being a form of torture. I've tried to establish a more neutral term of "enhanced interrogation technique" but it was reverted. I agree with the editor who reverted my edit because that edit, which neutralized the begininning of the article, was inconsistant with the rest. In short, the whole article should probably be looked at again with the hopes of making it more neutral. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 21:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I strongly disagree with the phrase "enhanced interrogation technique;" it's meaningless doublespeak. --Eyrian 21:51, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Well to play devil's advocate, torture is not appropriate either. So there's the problem. Enhanced interrogation technique is the word used by the United States for this practice, so why not use it. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 22:23, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Because other people (such as the referenced law professors) use another term. --Eyrian 22:54, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * There is a better reason that that. The U.S. Government has never acknowledged that is uses waterboarding or that it calls it "enhanced interrogation technique." It has prosecuted others for using the technique as war criminals. And it has banned U.S. military personal from using waterboarding. If it's merely an "enhanced interrogation technique," why would the U.S. deprive its soldiers in harms way from using it? And waterboarding clearly meets the definition of torture under U.S. law. Absent some notable source that says waterboarding isn't torture on the record, there is no reason to use weasel words in the article.--agr 04:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * But there also isn't reason to make a political statement through using "torture" rather than a more politically neutral word choice. I'm putting POV-check on the main page until this can be worked out. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 15:04, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
 * It was worked out long ago, read up the page. 71.204.133.75 04:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not a political statement, that would have no place in the article. It is simply a factual and cited definition, and one with the most widespread acceptablity to English langauge speakers. Now, the definition does have political consequences, but that does not make it a political statement. If some government somewhere wanted to rename say rape to "enhanced sexual suggestion" to make it less legally dangerous for the perpetrators, would that be ok? The phrase "enhanced interrogation technique" is nothing more than an spin to reduce the risks of future prosecution for war crimes, and an ICC warrant. If you feel torture is not the appropriate definition, please find an acceptable source that says so, and preferably not a perpetrator saying so; else leave it alone. Wiki is not meant to be politically correct, it is meant to be accurate and sourced. 71.204.133.75 04:10, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
 * You have arrived very late to this issue Jared, and use of administration spin, such as the more politically palatable non-phrase "enhanced interrogation technique" is not suitable, it is nonsensical phrase created by people who would wish the truth, and the popularly accepted definition were otherwise, so as to reduce the prospects of a retirement in the Hague. Revisionism. This is well cited, well explained, and was settled long before you discovered this article. 71.204.133.75 04:04, 27 May 2007 (UTC)


 * In short, the talk about the problems may have died down, but the issues in this article have certainly not been taken care of. (On a side note, I had always heard that Wikipedia was a very liberal encyclopedia but I had never noticed this in any articles until I saw this one.) So, I don't think that anything that I do here would be of any help, so I'll leave it up to you to hash out and if I ever stumble upon a more appropriate definition, then I will be glad to provide it in the body of the article. └ Jared ┘┌ t ┐&ensp; 00:33, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not about one country's political slants of Liberal or Conservative, its about fact - regardless of which side's arguments it supports. In this case I can see how this could be uncomfortable in certain quarters, but the recent revisionism "professional technique", or "enhanced interrogation technique" is pure spin, and meaningless anyway, given that the United States has prosecuted people for torture as a result of water boarding, and has criticised other countries for using waterboarding, describing it as a torture. Sorry but Do as I say, not as I do from the US regime isn't going be able to revise and delete long precedent on this definition. It is very clear, and well cited that the United States has long legally considered waterboarding a form of torture, and the vast majority in the civilized world also holds to this understanding, so I see no reason to offer a special accommodation to one political view point, in just one country, which would rather this subject went away - that would be a very slippery slope for an encyclopaedia to go down. 71.204.133.75 22:14, 28 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Just as a linguistic sidenote: The "meaningless doublespeak" term "enhanced interrogation technique" is a free translation of the German phrase "verschärfte Vernehmung"--a euphemism for "torture" used by the Gestapo. Details here: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/05/verschfte_verne.html PeterLinn 23:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)


 * I could find one hundred U.S. attorneys who believe that abortion is murder. Using it as a citiation to state it as fact, however, would be ludicrous. Instead, let's focus more on stating the actual facts which is that it is an interrogation technique that many people believe to be torture. Becuase only then will the 100 attorneys be a proper citation. User:Bellowed|&#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;)]] 20:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I would think it more to the converse - A method of torture method that some consider to be an interrogation technique.71.204.133.75 03:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And you could find a hundred people to tell you that the dragons exist and astrology can tell your future. It's a wide world, filled with the misinformed and gullible. Misrepresenting a minority view is against Wikipedia's policies. --Eyrian 21:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Misrepresenting a minority view is against Wikipedia's policies. Exactly. A minority view, held almost exclusively by supporters of one particular wing, of one particular country is a Minority View. Spin.71.204.133.75 03:46, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is not an issue of representing a minority viewpoint; Many prominent people do not believe waterboarding to be torture. Let's keep that in mind. Waterboarding is a controversial topic still; so let's err to the side of caution and not come to conclusions for everyone here.&#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 21:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Eyrian, I like your edit for the most part; however, I don't think that the cited source supports the word "typically" whereas I do believe that it does support the words "many believe". &#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 21:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Many prominent people believed the world is flat, and currently don't believe in evolution. That doesn't change the massive consensus of independent experts. --Eyrian 21:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * The difference here is that no prominent people today believe the world is flat. Today, however, it is hotly debated among prominent people today as to whether or not waterboarding is a form of torture. So stating, unequivocally, that waterboarding is torture is the wrong thing to do. It taints the rest of the article and makes it un-neutral. I will say that I think part of the problem is that the word torture is a very broad term. Waterboarding is a psychological form of torture that, by design, does not cause physical harm. Yet it is lumped into the same category with thumb-screwing and crucifixion. This is the real reason that people debate it's status. Anyways, I think we need to come up with a better phrase than "typically considered" because a letter w/ 100 signatures does not warrant the status of "typically considered." Any ideas?&#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 22:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * First of all, the definition of torture under U.S. law includes both physical and psychological pain: "'torture' means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering..." So there is nothing inappropriate in lumping waterboarding with thumb-screwing and crucifixion. Second, just who are these "prominent people" who argue on the record that waterboarding isn't torture? Provide some reliable sources that quote these prominent people (not bloggers, talk show hosts and the like) and we certainly should include their viewpoint in the article. --agr 22:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Today, however, it is hotly debated among prominent people today as to whether or not waterboarding is a form of torture.. Hotly debated by just who exactly? If this is so, why are they not being cited, as that could change the consensus already achieved as to what it is. See the top of TALK's tag, needs citation. There is no shortage of people who think it is justified (generally only Amercians though), but I have yet to hear of one prominent person who does not consider it torture. Plenty of editors have initially thought in the past that the treatment and definition was inaccurate - both views then went looking for references and backup so as not to engage in Original Research. No one found ONE CASE of anyone of any prominence stating that waterboarding was not torture - in actuality, in the case of the United States, the entire matter is denied.71.204.133.75 03:40, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Cheney and Giuliani are just two prominent individuals who don't believe that it is torture. Now, Giuliani of course believes that it should only be used in very unique cases, but nonetheless doesn't believe that it is torture. Let me remind everyone also that the letter signed by 100 attorneys does not constitute stating, unequivocally, that waterboarding is torture. &#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 04:41, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
 * Does the fact that if it is torture Cheney is in deep trouble under the command responsibility, for promoting, defending and justifying war crimes, make his view on the matter not suspicious? Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 05:38, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Put that aside. Where is a citable source that says Cheney and Giuliani believe waterboarding isn't torture? Cheney's remarks during the radio interview are cover in detail in the article. But the White House denies he was talking about waterboarding. Giuliani's answer during the South Carolina debates could be interpreted as meaning he does not believe waterboarding is torture, but they could also mean he opposes torture in general, but in the extreme circumstance posed by the moderator, a terrorist who knows where an atomic bomb is hidden, it would be ok. To accuse them of denying that waterboarding is torture, we need a clear, citable statement. (And it's not just the 100 law profs. It's John McCain, the only US Senator who has been tortured, the plain language of US law and international treaty, past US prosecution, dictionary definitions, etc., against ambiguous answers, rumor and speculation.)--agr 11:56, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Actually I think that may be important, later. Should Cheney ever admit its existence, and claim it was not torture - it would be very notable for article inclusion, but it would not be usable as a reference to change the first line casting doubt on its status as a form of torture - as his voiced opinion would be highly suspect given the prospect of a retirement in The Hague.71.204.133.75 18:19, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Where?, When? Link please. Cheney has made no such claims - he won't even admit to its existence, and Giuliani has not stated it is not torture, though there is a dispute as to whether he may approve of it regardless of its status as a form of torture. 71.204.133.75 18:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Giuliani's belief that waterboarding is not torture is right here: Q: Let's say terrorists mounted 3 successful suicide attacks in the US, and a 4th attack was averted and the terrorists captured. How aggressively would you interrogate those being held about where the next attack might be? A: If we know there's going to be another attack and these people know about it, I would tell the people who had to do the interrogation to use every method they could think of. It shouldn't be torture, but every method they can think of.

Q: Would you support enhanced interrogation techniques like water-boarding?

A: Well, I'd say every method they could think of, and I would support them in doing that. I've seen what can happen when you make a mistake about this, and I don't want to see another 3,000 people dead in New York or any place else.

So Rudy's position is that waterboarding falls into the "every method they can think of that is not torture" category.

As for Cheney, you actually have to look no further than this very article to find:

" Vice President Dick Cheney told an interviewer that he did not believe "a dunk in water" to be a form of torture but rather a "very important tool" for use in interrogations, including that of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.[7]"

And the CIA? They are also on this article: "In November 2005, anonymous sources told ABC news that the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency uses waterboarding, but does not deem it torture.[5]"

I think it also might be appropriate for everyone to read this tidbit of Wikipedia NPOV policy: It is not sufficient to discuss an opinion as fact merely by stating "some people believe..." as is common in political debates.[4] A reliable source supporting that a group holds an opinion must accurately describe how large this group is. In addition, this source should be written by named authors who are considered reliable.

Moreover, there are usually disagreements about how opinions should be properly stated. To fairly represent all the leading views in a dispute it is sometimes necessary to qualify the description of an opinion, or to present several formulations of this opinion and attribute them to specific groups.

A balanced selection of sources is also critical for producing articles with a neutral point of view. For example, when discussing the facts on which a point of view is based, '''it is important to also include the facts on which competing opinions are based since this helps a reader evaluate the credibility of the competing viewpoints. This should be done without implying that any one of the opinions is correct.''' It is also important to make it clear who holds these opinions. It is often best to cite a prominent representative of the view.

Since there are many opinions on this subject, we need to give the facts that the competing viewpoints exist without implying that either of them is correct. So, in other words, we need to let the reader know what waterboarding is, that there are opposing POV's as to it's classification, not imply that either view is wrong, and let the reader formulate their own opinion.

And again, I also have to say that sourcing "waterboarding = torture" with 100 US attorneys signed a letter that said so is very problematic. 100 US attorneys' opinions do not make it fact, especially when other prominent individials believe the opposite. We must state the fact that there are opinions of people, not the opinions of people as though they are fact. Therefore, I'm going to change it to waterboarding is a controversial interogation technique that many view as torture. The words "typically viewed" were used before, but since 100 US attorneys does not warrant such a phrase, we have to change it to something else. But I'm certainly open to suggestions. If someone can come up with a better phrase that can be supported by the letter to Alberto Gonzales, then I think it's definately something worth discussing.

Also, guys, I'd like you all to keep in mind that there is no such thing as a final edit on Wikipedia. It can always be improved. And I know it's only natural for people to think that a newcomer to this page is ignorant of the entire waterboarding debate that has occured on this talk pages, but I want everyone to know that I have read those discussions and I have come to my own conclusions based on neutral policy. &#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 00:20, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * This is called undue weight. Although the Bush administration and its supporters might disagree the rest of the world, including the UN, considers it torture. No need to mention any fringe opinion, even if it is by one would-be President. When the majority of Congress thinks like that we may mention it. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 01:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And most conservatives believe it not to be torture either. That's millions of people who dissent. You make it sound like it's the Bush administration on one side, and every other person in the world on the other. This is not a weight issue; it is a very contorversial topic that many, many people disagree on. Look no further than the top of this page at the tag that says, "This is a contorversial topic."&#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 01:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Said tag also says Make sure you supply full citations when adding information and consider tagging or removing uncited/unciteable information in highly controversial articles. And it is certainly a case of weight, one regime and (just some of) it's supporters do not consider it torture - this being the same regime that is believed to practice it - It is fair to state that the vast majority of people on this earth consider it torture first and foremost. To even consider it a form of interogation as a secondary is somewhat dubious and in dispute (though still mentionable) given the extremely comprehensive research, not to mention common sense, that people will often say anything to gain relief from torture be it physical or psychological.71.204.133.75 21:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please desist from vandalizing this article to make it politically palatable to Torturers. Your views, that it is primarily an 'enhanced interrogation technique' hark back to the Nazis (see above). This is a global encyclopaedia. You are pushing a minority POV, held almost exclusively by supporters of one particular wing, of one particular country and offering absolutely no references to back up your continuous attempts to make waterboarding appear to be an acceptable thing. 71.204.133.75 21:22, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Of a particular wing or a particular country? So obviously you do not believe that it is held by a tiny minority? Therefore your argument of undue weight is invalid since countries or wings do not constitute a tiny minority. And I object to your vandalism accusations. You really need to cool off.&#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 23:51, 10 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Bellowed is ignoring consensus, engaging in sophistry, and engaging in disruptive edits on this page, and a few others. Admins, please watchlist his account, as it seems we're heading for an RfC. --Eleemosynary 00:43, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * A small proportion of the conservative supporters of the US Republican party, is a tiny minority - and its view has since been added today to the article for completeness, but it certainly doesn't add significant weight. The world is a much bigger place than one small clique inside one wing of one party in one country - not to mention that a defence from a practitioner is highly suspect, Should Charles Manson declare that Murder is not homicide, would you have the world take note? It might be worth mention in a comedy section - but little more. In pushing your POV, you have been vandalizing. Deleting the first line, and a large number of reference tags, to replace it with a completely unsourced piece of spin (enhanced interrogation etc) is highly disruptive. Has it occurred to you there is a reason it was removed from the US army field manual - they are hardly going to remove all legal methods available to them in pursuit of protecting US lives... 71.204.133.75 01:19, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * It's far from clear that conservative supporters of the US Republican party seriously consider waterboarding not to be torture. Rather their real position is that torture is permissible when dealing with terrorists who know of imminent threats. Giuliani's final answer when asked about waterboarding was "I'd say every method they could think of." Do you really think if the moderator had asked about thumbscrews he would have said, "Well, no, not that, that's torture"? He would have been hooted off the stage. --agr 08:39, 11 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed, a very small minority of this group would consider it torture. I added that line in the article to try and reduce Bellowed vandalizing the main component, though it could easily be dumped - or clarified. I still haven't heard of one notable person stating it is not torture. 71.204.133.75 04:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The First Sentence

Today I reviewed the policy on undue weight and saw reason to change the sentence. It states that views should not be represented if they are not from a "tiny minority." Clearly if the CIA, Cheney, Giuliani, Romney, Brownback, O'Reilly, even Dennis Miller--not to mention millions of conservatives--do not view waterboarding as torture, then it's no tiny minority. Worldwide, we may be talking a minority view taken here, but not the view of a tiny minority. Further, the source does not justify the statement made in the first sentence as I said earlier. I am going to change it back to the version by Nescio since that is the only version that is, not only neutral, but more importantly properly sourced.&#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 00:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * And it will be reverted, as you have ignored consensus. --Eleemosynary 05:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And your revert will be reverted as you and an anonymous editor ignore policy.&#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 16:05, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
 * And your ongoing vandalism WILL BE REVERTED. CIA, Cheney, Giuliani, Romney, Brownback, O'Reilly say it is NOT torture? - If you could cite that we would be very interested - and more substantial than the Giuliani answer which could go either way. We have anonymous (and useless) (maybe from CIA) CIA claims. BTW - there is not requirement to register.69.181.32.194 21:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Precisely. It would be nice if Bellowed employed something besides idle threats, untruths, and transparent sophistry.  But I guess that's too much to hope for. : ) --Eleemosynary 00:39, 17 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Accusations of vandalism, ignoring policy, and sophistry galore. Please have a look at what isn't vandalism. That word gets thrown around a lot.--Chaser - T 04:50, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

POV check tag
I stated several reasons why I did not believe this article to be neutral on the basis of the first sentence "Waterboarding is a form of torture." I believed that this statement was controversial and supported that belief with several reasons. Furthermore, I do not believe that the supports for this statement actually support it. Everything I had to say on this can be read above. I made an edit that I thought made the article neutral and another editor, Nescio, improved on it and I thought after his edit that the article was entirely balanced.

Since then, Eleemysonary and an an anonymous editor (and who knows who he might be?) have reverted my changes. They claim that I am defying consensus. I'm no longer disputing the edit because I don't want to defy consensus; but it still does feel like it might be un-neutral and I would like for this article to get checked for its neutrality by an expert.&#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 00:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Who knows who an anonymous editor might be? Who knows who you are? What is the difference? Wikipedia maintains a clear policy not requiring registration to edit, please do not cast aspersions. This article has certainly been checked for neutrality, and a consensus was achieved. We have now started to improve it by providing mention to the few (if any?) people who would disagree. We still have no good and clear citation of anyone of note saying Waterboarding is not a form of torture; all we have is a wishy washy political non-answer from a former city mayor, and anonymous claims that may or may not be authentic from an organization that is known to practice waterboarding and other forms of torture & general criminality. 24.7.61.14 02:37, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

User:Bellowed is being very tiresome in trying to push his own politically motivated POV on to this article; at least he has stopped mangling the text, but is still putting in Neutrality Check tags. What is the Neutrality question? This is like book burning, should something abhorrent be subjected to revisionism because someone he supports now practices it? How is this not Neutral? Does it not mention the tiny minority who hold a differing view of the subject matter? Should the commonly held understanding of Waterboarding being a form of torture be subjected to weasel words to appease the tiny minority who practice torture, or support its practitioners? I fail to see how this is not Neutral. Sometimes the truth hurts. This is an encyclopaedia, not a forum for revisionism, censorship, and political correctness. 24.7.61.14 02:27, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreed. To use the NPOV tag merely because one cannot back up one's argument is thumbsucking.  For more on User:Bellowed's deliberate ignorance of consensus, please see this excellent summary by James M. Lane:  --Eleemosynary 02:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Very insightful, thanks.24.7.61.14 02:53, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thumbsucking? Saying that I haven't backed up my argument? Your further harassment is documented. &#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 18:07, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please take that childish ascii tag and your childish POV vandalism elsewhere. No sources, no edits - this is tagged controversial. We are all tired of you harassing him. 24.7.91.244 19:33, 19 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Just what do you mean by No editor, much less an anonymous one, do you know how wikipedia works, or are you just making it up as you go along, harassing people who try to restrain your POV pushing, and casting negative aspersions? Give it a rest, if you persist in attacking other editors it is inevitable that they will close ranks against your hostility and return the favour.24.7.91.244


 * Excellent catch on the ascii tag. --Eleemosynary 00:01, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no idea what an ascii tag is and I'm not going to sit here and argue with you about my identity. I don't know how you found out that information about me, but placing it here on Wikipedia, trying to expose my identity, is a serious thing. I removed your comments because I don't want my identity to be here. Say anything again and you will be reported. And by the way, the pov tag stays--I have an admin who thinks it's ridiculous for it to be removed. &#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 17:43, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I believe the "ascii tag" is referring to your sig. --Eyrian 17:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * That does not reveal your identity, it is just describing a (alleged) job type, of which there are 100,000s of people in. And you stated it clearly, yourself, in wikipedia. 24.7.91.244 18:17, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please stop POV pushing on this article, and deleting items written by others in talk. This is not personally identifiable information, but anonymous information published under a GFDL-compatible license, very readily available, and serves to illustrate my point quite effectively. 24.7.91.244 18:45, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Please read right to vanish. --Eyrian 18:51, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * I disagree as to how that covers this (if you decide to leave Wikimedia projects - didn't leave, or change user). Making revisions on a user page does not ban the rest of us from refering to older edits under this Meta. I will agree that under this definition, alleged job type could well fall under personal info. However I have am not going to pursue this. 24.7.91.244 18:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)


 * OK deleted that info from my talk page some time ago; I don't appreciate your attempt to resurrect it here. Please stop the harassment. &#124;3 E &#124;_ &#124;_ 0 VV E &#124;) 18:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)