Talk:Watkin Tudor Jones

Personal life section corrections and mods
I noticed that in the personal life section and I quote " he has stated that he and Yolandi have known each other since childhood, but has also said they met as adults. He has stated that his father has been shot and his brother took his own life"

In the short film By Yo-Landi. "Family Picnic" You can plainly see Jones in du Toits living room when she was a young girl. So in fact they did meet when she was young not as adults. Onto Jones father, he committed suicide, because of this his brother could not deal with the pain of losing his father and took his own life also. He still has one living brother.--Gene Zef2 (talk) 20:03, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

Correction needed?
This is all wrong, Max Normal.tv and Max Normal are 2 different bands. Max Normal is the one mentioned in the article, but around 2007 Waddy remade Max Normal.tv where they released Good Morning South Africa just before Die Antwoord became his priority. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.244.234.228 (talk) 15:14, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Please provide references and detailed information. The information in this article about Max Normal.tv was primarily pulled from the previous Wikipedia Max Normal.tv entry which has since been deleted.  EVERYWHERE I have tried to find references to Max Normal, it is referred to as Max Normal.tv This may be in part because "Max Normal" is a European performer, and using the .tv avoids the confusion.  It may also be because they (Waddy and crew) had had the domain name maxnormal.tv  which is no longer operating. Centerone (talk) 21:01, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Sure. Max Normal started in 2001 http://www.last.fm/music/Max+Normal with their album Song's From The Mall http://www.sanpasquale.net/2010/06/max-normal-songs-from-mall-2001.html which Waddy disbanded in 2002 and went onto The Constructus Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constructus_Corporation until 2003. The Fantastic Kill was released in 2005 http://www.last.fm/music/Watkin+Tudor+Jones/The+Fantastic+Kill under the name Watkin Tudor Jones. After that, I'm sure he did something else, but in 2008 he created Max Normal.tv which is a different band to Max Normal featuring Yo-Landi Visser and other different members. They released Good Morning South Africa http://www.amazon.co.uk/Good-Morning-South-Africa-Explicit/dp/B001N91VDC and then was Die Antwoord. LegoTrip (talk) 11:56, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

missing project subject
I noticed that The original evergreens are mentioned in the article, but there is no project area like for max normal the constructus company and Die Antwoord. I think If the original evergreens are mentioned it should have its own subject area like the others.--Gene Zef2 (talk) 19:44, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Missing movie from acting area
The Movie Tokoloshe was made in 2010. Here is a link to an article about it. www.vice.com/en_au/article/tokoloshe ...I think this movie should be added to his acting carrer, but I am not sure how to set it up so the link will work.--Gene Zef2 (talk) 19:56, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Welsh name
His name - if it's his real name - is obviously Welsh. So were his parents (or other ancestors) Welsh? 90.205.92.50 (talk) 03:27, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

His last name is Tudor-Jones, I assume that his heritage would not be a real factor in an article unless say a musical mentor (parent) was of Welsh decent.--Gene Zef2 (talk) 19:26, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Real name
His real (registered in the population register) firstname is actually Waddy. I added "alternative name" in the article. Unfortunately I cannot reveal the source of this information, but I guarantee it's as close to the official source as you can get. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.210.191.54 (talk) 18:58, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
 * if you 'can't reveal the source', it might as well be unsourced. Kaini (talk) 22:38, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

His legal last name is Tudor-Jones. His Fathers last name was Tudor and his mothers last name is Jones. I have never read anywhere what is middle name actually is so, therefor I cant provide one. I know his last name is Tudor-Jones because his mother and brother carry the same last name, now that information I can provide, but they are links to facebook profile for the family, and I am not trying to put them out there like that. How can I go about getting that information corrected? I mean can I have a admin verify what I am say without posting the profiles of the family here?--Gene Zef2 (talk) 19:35, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

if its unproven, which it is it can't be aowed without something that is truly verifiable. I have seen pleanty of video where he himsef announces what his full name is. I can get links to them.

He claims is Watkin Tudor-Jones. he has never said what his middle name is. and Tudor-Jones is Written as I have written it Tudor is not his middle name. His Fathers last name was Tudor, and his mothers last name Jones. Hence the Tudor-Jones.

If anyone needs this info I can provide other internet sources or videos where what I am saying can be verified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gene Zef2 (talk • contribs) 05:42, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Im not sure Im doing this right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gene Zef2 (talk • contribs) 05:47, 3 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Are you referring to the comments from 2011 in the real name section? Okay, you just made this really confusing, because you created an entirely new section under your own name instead of actually replying in a threaded discussion to the commend you are responding too. Please note that that was from 6 years ago and didn't actually need a response anyways.  As far as "doing this right" we've repeatedly tried to work with you and educate you on how to use wikipedia, over quite a long time period.  Please try to read the various help and policy pages that we've pointed out in the past.  They may teach you how to best work with wikipedia and how to do things right. Centerone (talk) 06:34, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

I have read them, but thank you for retelling me everything everyone else already said. I was unclear after the third person told me, but now that you have pointed it out once again, I understand.

And BTW there is no section I can find that says how the coding works on this site. So could anyone inform me on what I am doing wrong, instead of just pointing out that I'm doing it wrong, I would appreciate it.

--Gene Zef2 (talk) 19:35, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

photo
Love the infobox photo! AnonMoos (talk) 09:22, 2 March 2012 (UTC)


 * if a photo surfaced of me when i looked like this i would cry GeminiJesterApogee (talk) 00:06, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

ARCHIVED: Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page not moved: no consensus after 24 days. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 08:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Watkin Tudor Jones → Ninja (rapper) – This artist is best known by the name Ninja. Many interviews in major magazines use Ninja exclusively. Examples using Ninja primarily or exclusively include: Rolling Stone, Vice, SPIN, and Reuters. Many other notable examples. Jokestress (talk) 21:33, 23 April 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment At 13:19, 1 May 2012 (UTC) I performed the move as page moved to Ninja (South African rapper) to distinguish from Ninja (British rapper), since no objections were raised. Which lead to the reactions here which I'm indenting here and John's revert of the move. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:39, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * WTF. This move is stupid.  A requested move done in a week with no notice to the page itself and no input?!  Look at the guy's artistic history.  Ninja is a TEMPORARY character he is portraying as part of the Die Antwoord group, which happens to be seeing a decent level of international popularity.  His history shows that he regularly transforms himself and takes on different identities and has a diverse output that by far dwarfs the basic characterization of the 'Ninja' character. Centerone (talk) 14:45, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm with Centerone here. There is insufficient consensus to move this page, so I moved it back. Also per Centerone, oppose the move as it seems likely that "Ninja" will be a short-lived sobriquet as all his others have been. We can always revisit this in a year or two. --John (talk) 15:10, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * oppose move - waddy has been involved with more projects than just die antwoord. Kaini (talk) 15:52, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Support as nominator. This move request was made of me by Ninja himself, who contacted me after I worked on the BLP for his collaborator Leon Botha. I have never met him and had no prior contact before this correspondence. Per our naming conventions: "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their 'real' name.... If people published under one or more pen names and/or their own name, the best known of these names is chosen." In his case, Ninja is the name he prefers, Ninja is the name used in the vast majority of reliable sources, and Ninja has stated his name is not a "character" but who he is and how he prefers to be called. Most of the reliable sources I found, including most listed above, do not even use his non-stage name. We honor these requests on BLPs as matters of courtesy, convention, and policy. Jokestress (talk) 16:58, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I am slightly influenced by the subject's own naming preference here. The recent web references to "Ninja" are just what you would expect, as it is his current stage name. What would really swing it for me would be a book reference or two. Are there any? --John (talk) 17:55, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Reply: Books using Ninja primarily or exclusively include:
 * The Rough Guide to South Africa, Lesotho & Swaziland, ISBN 9781405393799
 * The Rough Guide to Cape Town, The Winelands & The Garden Route, ISBN 9781405393621
 * Scholarly papers using Ninja primarily or exclusively include:
 * Bastardised whiteness:'zef'-culture, Die Antwoord and the reconfiguration of contemporary Afrikaans identities. Social Identities: Journal for the Study of Race, Nation and Culture Volume 17, Issue 6, 2011 doi:10.1080/13504630.2011.606671
 * Die Antwoord gooi zefLiminality : of monsters, carnivals and affects. Image & Text : a Journal for Design : Space, ritual, absence : the liminal in South African visual art. ISSN 10201497
 * National melancholia and Afrikaner self-parody in post-apartheid South Africa. Psychoanalysis, Culture & Society (2011) 16, 90–106. doi:10.1057/pcs.2010.42
 * Additionally, some articles cited earlier (such as the SPIN piece) are now available in book form. Jokestress (talk) 18:07, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I am *not* influenced by the subject's own naming preference. It's what I would _expect_.  Having worked on this article, Leon Botha, and Die Antwoord he did _not_ contact me.  However, I only came to work on those articles, and even know who the heck this guy is, after I saw the Enter the Ninja video blow up across the web from my friends, I did extensive research (reading and tracking all the articles and references I could) to figure out where he was coming from, and what the story was.  In doing so, it reveals a very fascinating tapestry of creativity.  When you read the articles and other references, acting as Ninja, Waddy seems to: NOT want to discuss any of his history, any of his other projects, nor does he want to discuss if Ninja is serious or a joke, or social commentary, or what.  Ninja as a character wants you to believe his origin story, and that everything they put out about himself and the band is true, when it isn't, and many of the people writing about him take him at face value.  I fully expect him to milk the Ninja character for everything that he can, and take it as far as he can; due to the current popularity of Die Antwoord I would *expect* "Ninja" to be written about, and for Waddy to insist he be called Ninja when doing an interview about the same.  However, Ninja is not all that Waddy is, has been, or will be.  Centerone (talk) 21:47, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Endorse this: waddy changes personae like most people change socks. if he really, really wants this move he needs to go through the WP:OTRS process, not through jokestress. if we were to obey this naming convention then the article would be called watkin tudor jones, then max normal, then mc totally rad, then ninja. to quote the Die Antwoord article:
 * "when asked if he was playing a character, Ninja said, 'Ninja is, how can I say, like Superman is to Clark Kent. The only difference is, I don't take off this fokken Superman suit.'"
 * ninja is not the sole artistic endeavour of watkin tudor-jones, as much as he would like for all previous ventures to be disregarded. we are an encyclopaedia and it is our job to document all of his endeavours, not just the most fashionable one. Kaini (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2012 (UTC)


 * as an aside, just a read of this article and the die antwoord article would confirm this. it's not rocket science. the article on Sean Combs remains Sean Combs, not Puff Daddy, Diddy, or P Diddy. Kaini (talk) 22:34, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As an aside to your aside, Combs prefers that name these days, but the bio was at P Diddy until 2005. We move articles to respect the name someone prefers, such as Metta World Peace, even if they have a longer history using another stage or legal name. Since the objections above seem to be based on personal feelings rather than policy, I will suggest Ninja contact OTRS. Jokestress (talk) 00:22, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * until 2005? i would suggest that this is wikipedia process in action. the reason it's not at P Diddy any more is the same reason that this article should remain under Watkin Tudor Jones. and there's no personal feeling here, the fact that you would suggest that this is the case is a little bit offensive. we're all just trying to make an encyclopaedia here, no? Kaini (talk) 01:27, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment My objections are not based on 'feelings'. My objections are based on fact and logic and an attempt to make as accurate and complete an entry as possible.  I created this page, and I think it's may be relevant to look at the context under which I did that.  When 'Enter the Ninja' broke, most people outside of South Africa which had never heard of him were trying to figure out if this guy in this video was serious.  At the time there was a Max Normal wikipedia page, and a brand new Die Antwoord WP page.  Shortly after crafting this page, the Max Normal page was deleted (it looks like it's back now), and the Die Antwoord page was under threat of deletion.  MaxNormal.TV the website had disappeared, I assume because they moved onto a different project, and references for this project and others were sparse.  I created the page specifically because it seemed like there needed to be one place to cover _all_ the creative output of this person, and not just the mystery-that-was-Ninja that people were trying to decipher.  I understand why he might want to be seen as that image, right now, but I was trying to take an all-encompasing and long-term approach to the subject.  I think besides just referring him to the OTRS process, he should also be pointed to all the articles on BLP, articles on yourself, etc. etc. Centerone (talk) 09:03, 2 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose. We're an encyclopedia. We should be careful not to be swayed by the promotional aspirations of such artists. (And if they're any good, they don't need our help anyway.) An out-of-character photo for the infobox would be a good idea too, for similar reasons. Andrewa (talk) 16:10, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Support I don't see why WP:STAGENAME doesn't apply here. Theoldsparkle (talk) 15:13, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Commnent I think the point is that he's published or performed or referred to himself as at least 8 different names, including under Watkin Tudor Jones. Centerone (talk) 19:04, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested Move 2014

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 16:12, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Watkin Tudor Jones → Ninja (South African rapper) – Per WP:MOVES, I suggest re-opening the discussion of moving this page (previous discussion at ARCHIVED: Requested move) to the artists' preferred and more widely known name.  Although it is true that he had numerous acts previous to Die Antwoord, and with them he had various aliases, all of that pales in comparison to the much larger impact he has had with Die Antwoord. This article needs to speak to the work that most people who come to this page know about, the reason they are here in the first place. Die Antwoord's videos garner youtube views in the tens of millions (this one alone has over 50 million views I Fink You Freaky), they have toured the globe multiple times, and their 2014 album went number one on the US Dance chart (as well as charting in seven other countries Die Antwoord - Studio Albums). Everything the artist did before Die Antwoord pales greatly in comparison, and should not be given equal billing. And his name should be the name he chose five years ago for working in his band Die Antwoord, namely, Ninja. Wikipedia makes it quite clear what action to take when addressing this situation (WP:STAGENAME), and I quote because it applies specifically to this case, "The name used most often to refer to a person in reliable sources is generally the one that should be used as the article title, even if it is not their "real" name, .... If people published under one or more pen names and/or their own name, the best known of these names is chosen." Please note, it specifically says "one or more pen names", so the artist could have a hundred different aliases, but if he is best known as Ninja, which he is, then that is the name we are obligated to choose. Additionally, I would suggest that there be a single section in this article (or a separate article, if anyone feels that it is necessary to have separate articles for Ninja and Watkin Tudor Jones) with a more South African-centered point of view to talk about the artist's pre-Ninja work, work that most the rest of the world never knew about and, frankly, may not necessarily be interested in. There is room for that, but it shouldn't make up the lion's share of the article. I do not think people are coming to this article to be re-educated as to who the "real person" is behind Ninja, they are actually here to read something about Ninja, and there's a difference. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:06, 7 August 2014 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 14:05, 30 July 2014 (UTC) MarcusParker (talk) 17:56, 23 July 2014 (UTC) 
 * Rename, as nominator. MarcusParker (talk) 18:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
 * OPPOSE - as all the previous reasons already stated. Also, WP:STAGENAME doesn't seem to quite apply here in such a clear-cut way here.. almost all the examples used in that policy are cases where their published and/or performed or produced works are all done under the same pseudonym and they never or rarely released works under their own names. Due to the malleable and prolific nature of this artist's output, this is a more complicated issue; infact many of the articles on him and the group have brought up the topic of the character vs. the person and his previous works. I have some other responses to some of the above comments, but I will save that for later. Centerone (talk) 15:13, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * COMMENT: You said "I do not think people are coming to this article to be re-educated as to who the "real person" is behind Ninja, they are actually here to read something about Ninja, and there's a difference." - This is a fundamental issue. This is the KEY reason why this article is here. I know I most certainly was here and working on this and other related articles specifically because I wanted to know who this person was and the REAL story behind the group was.  When Enter The Ninja came out, a lot of people who weren't familiar with who Watkin Tudor Jones was or aware of his previous work were thinking "this _can't_ be serious"... "what the heck is up with this??"  It was like a bad combination between Mr. Cool Ice and Vanilla Ice meets.. who knows what?  For lack of a better way of saying it, it was like a bad accident that you couldn't help but want to look at and wonder about.  If people only wanted to read about 'Ninja'.. there is the Die Antwoord article, but I want to know about the artist behind Die Antwoord.  I want to know about his complete output.  For me, Die Antwoord come across as brilliant and interesting as they are because of the sheer diversity and variety of the output of Waddy and his partners.  Look at some of his other stuff like "The Way of the Dassie" and his videos on how he makes his stuffed plush toys.  Look at the concepts behind Max Normal, etc. Look at his other musical output.  I want to know the full body of his work.  That is why I am here reading and editing these pages.  (Note: I will have more comments later about other statements you made above.) Centerone (talk) 21:03, 6 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment — per WP:SPNC I don't think a name change away from the earliest name with which he became known to the world would be advised here (note that the pre-Antwoord career had been international, mainly in Europe, for many years already). Also, it's not a persona similar to Conchita Wurst, who only performs under that name now and for the forseeable future: Waddy/Watkin/Ninja/Wad-e/... has a tradition of changing pseudonyms/stagenames/personas (which is part of who his is as an artist), more in the vein of Barry Humphries, who has a single one that beats all the others (Dame Edna Everage), and yet his main biographical article is at Barry Humphries. Per WP:SPNC, if it's uncertain whether the new name will stick (which appears the case here), don't move the page to a new name. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:53, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Oppose - No way should this article be "Ninja ()". This subject has many nicknames, so birth name is preferred. I created Watkin Jones as a dabpage, so abandoning "Tudor" is impossible. --George Ho (talk) 19:14, 10 August 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Aliases
Which of these are aliases/pseudonyms for the artist? There is some sort of point to putting aliases in articles, like, so we can find more information about him, which is not happening on all of these. If someone had a nickname with their friends and their "band" in junior high school, I don't think we need to put it in here. I don't know if that's the case, but there's no way I can tell otherwise from this article.


 * Max Normal - was he credited as Max Normal on the albums etc.? Or was just a part he was playing?
 * The Man Who Never Came Back - was this just a song that he performed, or was he credited or known as "The Man Who Never Came Back"?
 * MC Totally Rad - known alias, could use some sort of explanation in the article ...
 * Yang Weapon - There is truly no context to this or source that mentions this in this article, so I am not sure why this is here?
 * Destructo - Same as above.
 * Waddy - This is just his name shortened, isn't it? Would we put "Bob" as an alias for Robert Deniro? If it's an unusual enough nickname for Watkins, perhaps it should be kept in the list, or even in his name if he used it for long enough ("Watkins "Waddy" Tudor Jones)?
 * WAD:e - Same as Yang Weapon and Destructo.

I am for removing The Man Who Never Came Back, Yang Weapon, Destructo, and WAD:e unless someone can show reason for keeping them, sources would be nice, web search results, something. There's a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv_Ra469vuo) labeled WAD:e but there doesn't actually appear to be anything in it (other than him being called "Waddy" audibly) that points to WAD:e being an alias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcusParker (talk • contribs) 19:40, 26 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Copying history page comments here for convenience:

There is no reason to have all these completely out of context and unsourced aliases. "Waddy" in fact is short for Watkins, so saying it's an alias is like saying Bobby is an alias for Robert. - MarcusParker

These are neither unsourced nor completely out of context. He has either recorded under these names and/or referred to himself as these names in his work. - Centerone

An alias should be a name that was used to do something, like start a business, band, write a book, or a name that was used with some significance. Simply referring to yourself in a song by some name doesn't make that name an alias, or being known by a small group by a name doesn't make that name worth noting in an encyclopedic setting. What was done under that alias that makes it worth noting in an encyclopedia?MarcusParker (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering that you are suggesting and attempting to make numerous pretty radical changes to the article, and related articles, you seem to be curiously lacking in information about the subject. As it states currently: "He is known for adopting different stage personas. He currently co-fronts the group Die Antwoord under the name Ninja. Jones has released several albums under different guises.. " These are key aspects of his artistic expression and history. A basic websearch would answer a number of your questions.  If you think the article needs more information, feel free to add it.  However, many people seem to feel the need to reduce information in the article, even though some of those statements are related to critical analysis of the character and nature of his performances and how those works are . You may want to start with the two-part analysis video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgRUlVZbpcg   There is much more out there, also. Centerone (talk) 06:27, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comment; I was starting to feel alone out here :) Really, at this point, if we could simply add a reference to each of the aliases, I think that would improve them drastically. MarcusParker (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * I found a wonderful link documenting the artist using WAD:e as an alias at the very beginnings of Die Antwoord, so am adding that; I think it is a revealing and interesting tidbit that warrants adding to the article. Wish I could find documentation on exactly when the artist started going by 'Ninja'. MarcusParker (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * see also this video, where he mentions 'maybe change my name to wad:e'... Kaini (talk) 10:17, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a fascinating video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv_Ra469vuo featuring Wad:e and Yo-Landi Visser with Jack Parow it actually says Die Antwoord coming soon at the end.Centerone (talk) 07:07, 6 August 2014 (UTC)


 * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCrM5xMGqIw A source on Destructo which was a side project during his maxnormal.tv days. https://youtube.com/9Hp6CUuBWiA A source on Yang Weapon. https://youtube.com/oUq2WjibMnE A source on The man who never came back, also if you look up cape town beats it shows up on that album, it appears to be an alias he only used once. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69LLlg5MKY8 a source for Unnoffical language, a project watkin tudor jones was involved in in 1996.

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 1 one external link on Watkin Tudor Jones. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for www.maxnormal.tv/interview2.php

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Cheers.—cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 11:52, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

How to refer to personal & working relationship with Yo-Landi?
So, there have been some recent edits regarding Ninja & Yolandi's relationship both personal and working, on this as well as the related articles of Yolandi, and probably also the Die Antwoord article. I'm not sure how we should resolve this, but I figured we should discuss it. Now, let's start with the obvious: the things that Ninja and Yolandi say are frequently not trustworthy due to their commitment to character and image in regards to their art. So, we don't really know whether they are infact currently in a relationship or not, or how they define that relationship personally. (At least one fan who knows them personally and says he has housed them when they are in his city says they are not, but he's not exactly a reliable source and hasn't been able to follow or understand wikipedia editing policies.) There has also been an interview put out recently where Ninja goes on record as to Die Antwoord being no more at a certain point, yet Yolandi came out and said it wasn't true, but the people who wrote the original article put out a more detailed quote from Ninja about it. So, we have both "partner" or "former partner" in the relationship sense, as well as in the business / art / music sense. Opinions? Ideas? References? Centerone (talk) 03:43, 19 October 2016 (UTC)


 * As long as we do not have reliable info, the info should not get into Wikipedia. It is as simple as that. Allensbacher (talk) 22:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Let's discuss ways of how to get relevant info into/onto Wikipedia. Not sure though whether your (or somebody else's) personal relationship issues should have a place in an encyclopaedia. Allensbacher (talk) 22:25, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

New Photo by Gene
Gene_Zef2 That's a very impressive photo you have added. Thank you for contributing your work to the Wikimedia Commons and making it freely usable. I'd be surprised if they weren't using that commercially, it's very good. Might you have a similar one for Yolandi? We could finally get rid of that mediocre photo we have on her article. BTW, it would be helpful for you to add data as to when it was shot, because people on articles frequently choose the most recent image of someone, not necessarily the best. Also, was any editing or processing done on it, in-camera or out? It looks HDR or IR or something different about it.. people might tend towards un-processed photos, but I personally like this one a lot. Thank you. Centerone (talk) 17:21, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

^^^I will try to do the same thing for a pic of Y0Landi. but she moves so fast onstage its hard to get a pic from a video I shot. I will try though.

I took the pic from a video I shot at a concert then I had a friend of mine make it black and white then I posted it.. :) only way I could figure out around the copy write stuff.

I had to have a friend make it black and white, I hope that doent mean I cant use it.--Gene Zef2 (talk) 17:48, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

External links section
The removed links are not about Jones directly, and both are linked from The Constructus Corporation. --Ronz (talk) 15:53, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

a place to ask questions
Is there a place to ask about how to construct the code to make a link to something else on Wiki appear in the wiki page without inserting the link with a ref at the bottom? Not really looking for the answer here, but is there a place to ask that question on wiki?

--Gene Zef2 (talk) 17:46, 8 March 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't understand what specifically you are asking about. If you know the specific policy, guideline, templates, etc; then the respective talk page would be where to ask. Otherwise, the appropriate subsection of WP:VILLAGEPUMP is a good location to ask for help, and it also lists other locations where you can get assistance. --Ronz (talk) 15:56, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

Recent incorrect edits.
A certain editor, has seemingly made absolutely no effort to understand the subject, read the references, or understand any of the context. He's gone so far as to make threats and project behaviour of his own (edit warring, etc.) onto me when I'm simply reverting his mistakes and lack of understanding, and even absurd claims of a COI that don't exist in any way shape or form.

Here is the basis for the inclusion of stuffed animal making in the article, for those of you who Don't already know. Note this stuff was ALREADY referenced and cited within the article, and has been discussed numerous times; here's just some additional information. Waddy during at least one of the projects, produced commercially available limited edition Chommie Toys, and animated videos including them, at very least as part of the Oppikoppi Festival, with some sort of related projects at the time. https://www.reddit.com/r/DieAntwoord/comments/2xadd8/where_to_buy_ninja_and_yolandis_chommie_toys/ discusses the topic and includes references to an original maxnormal website, and another reference http://maxnormaltv.blogspot.com/ and can be seen in The Way Of The Dassie video, amongst others. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SinwIQrYr8Y

As to identity and persona, it is a key part of his artistic expression, and is seemingly well-known within South Africa. In the Kwaai Mix video you can see a number of the identity presentations of Waddy, including as MC Totally Rad who specifically makes a statement criticizing those who artificially take on American accents as part of their artistic presentation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sra9vV5FJUw In the Zef Side video, which was supposed to be at least partially an interview by a journalist that came out right after Die Antwoord broke internationally with Enter The Ninja and people were still trying to figure out who this guy was and if he was serious, it crafts and implies artificial histories and falsehoods about their families, residences, as well as perpetuates the myths by presenting a possibly completely false DJ Hi-Tek (who has been portrayed by a number of different people over time) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q77YBmtd2Rw In Max Normal Total Fuckup, he specifically discusses and details his struggle as a rapper trying to hustle and get his music out there, and his insecurities with it, as well as his reasons for and thoughts surrounding the exploration of different identity presentations and attempts at different personas. "why I rock a suit...", "maybe I should get in with the new rave scene, I'll wear space age shades... and change my name to Wad-E, wear tight little white shorts..." "Change my accent, make it more wild [?], total makeover, change my whole style.." "You are so lost in{?] make believe, you have[?] a new reality.." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pecHKtUXPy8 There are of course numerous other times where these things have been discussed or covered in his work, in interviews, in articles about him and them, including his decision to eventually rap partially in Afrikaans, but hopefully this and other previous discussions are good enough for you.

ALL of this stuff has been previously discussed here (possibly with archived discussions), dealt with with previous edits, etc. While the current text of the article, minus this editor's incorrect removals of factual and relevant information, may not be phrased in the ideal way, it is all true, referenced, and factual. If the editor has a problem with the way it is phrased perhaps he should improve the text rather than deleting it entirely. Furthermore, understanding the history and context of and diversity of his artistic expression and development is key to understanding his work. Remember, this article is not about Die Antwoord or his sole identity presentation as the tough-guy Ninja, this article is about Watkin Tudor Jones as a whole. The burden of proof should be on editors wishing to remove long-standing details and referenced and cited information, not the person simply trying to revert his incorrect edits made on false premises and a lack of understanding of the subject. Centerone (talk) 18:45, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
 * Centerone, the fact that your hero has toyed around with different identities is sufficiently mentioned in the article even without your repeated intervention attempts: First, there is the expression "He is best known as ...", which implies that he might also be known under different names. Second, there is a long list of "Also known as" names in the info box. There is no need to spend more words on this issue. Yet, that is just a side note because both the tone and the content of this long statement suggests that you fail to demonstrate the required distance to the topic of the article. You positively confirmed the COI suspicion (see Conflict of interest for the details} and, therefore, should not continue to edit this article. It is as simple as that. Allensbacher (talk) 05:21, 13 December 2017 (UTC)