Talk:Wayang

Translation issues
In the original German was a sentence, "Vor dem Dalang liegt auch kein Bananenstrunk, der die Puppen aufnimmt, sondern ein Plangkan (eine Art Tisch mit Löchern in der Tischplatte), auf dem die benötigten Puppen bereit gestellt werden."

I am changing this to simply, "In front of the Dalang is a Plangkan (a type of table with holes punched in its surface), on which the necessary puppets sit ready for use.

I think (but am not certain) that the that the untranslated part is more or less a joke: roughly, that there what is on the table is not a foo foo drink for the puppets. If anyone with better German than me thinks I'm wrong and there is something more substantial here, please restore the appropriate phrase. Thanks.

Jmabel 05:54, 31 May 2004 (UTC)

Another sentence with which I had trouble: Die Figuren dieser Schattenspiele waren Wayang Golek (normale Kopfgestalt durch einen da-mit verbundenen Stab auf dem Rumpf drehbar. Arme durch je ein Stab, der an der Hand befestigt ist beweglich), geschnitzte, bemalte und bekleidete Figuren, die an Fäden gezogen wurden, Malereien auf Schautafeln oder geweihte und verkleidete Menschen.

I've rendered this "The figures in these puppet plays were wayang golek (normally a head assembly connected by a straight stick to a trunk, allowing the head to swivel. Arms were attached to a separate staff, allowing hand motions), carved, painted and dressed figures, manipulated via threads or strings, painted dioramas or sanctified and dressed humans," but that may not be quite right. If you know better, please correct the article (and make a note here that you've done so). -- Jmabel 18:03, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Your translation seems OK. Geweihte could also mean "horned", which would make sense in the case of demons. "Sanctified", as in "blessed", makes less sense in the context. Cat 12:44, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Another tricky one: ''Wayang-Klitik-Figuren meist erheblich beschädigt, sehr zum Gaudium der Zuschauer..." I haven't even ventured a translation for this, it has several words I don't properly know. Is Gaudium perhaps the Latin word, as in "gaudeamus igitur"? -- Jmabel 18:03, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) This has now been satisfactorily rendered. -- Jmabel 05:40, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

Another problematic sentence: Aus diesem Grunde haben Wayang-Klitik-Figuren, die zu Spielen herangezogen werden und dort Kampfszenen zu durchstehen haben, Arme aus Leder. I currently have this partially translated as "On this basis the wayang klitik figures have, die zu Spielen herangezogen werden and where battle scenes zu durchstehen haben, leather arms." I know that durchstehen is to stand one's ground, but I still can't fully translate the sentence. -- Jmabel 18:17, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC) This has now been satisfactorily rendered. -- Jmabel 05:40, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

And another: Aus Jenggala und Kediri stammen die Geschichten von Raden Panji und Cindelaras, die ein paar Dorfjungen mit ihren Kampfhähnen erleben. The first part is "From Jenggala and Kediri come the stories of Raden Panji and Cindelara," I'm not at all clear on the latter part. My dictionary says Kampfhähnen are literally fighting cocks, but can just be pugnacious people. -- Jmabel 19:46, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Someone else has now simply rendered this as fighting cocks, but I'd consider that suspect (since one can't tell from the original German). I'd like to find a more primary source before considering this necessarily correct. -- Jmabel 05:40, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)
 * I translated it as I did, because it explicitly says "the boys with their X", and not somthing like "the two x-like boys". Cat 12:44, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)
 * Don't worry, Cat. Your translation is right. "Cindelaras" is a Javanese folk story about an outcast prince who fought his way back to the palace with his fighter cock. Cindelaras is actually the name of the boy.Matahari Pagi 09:35, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

An interesting link:
 * Wooden puppet is performed almost the same way as the wayang kulit, but there is no screen in front of the puppeteer, and no banana trunk to stuck the wayang. In stead a 'Plangkan' (permanent wooden table with holes) to support the wooden puppets is used.

Cat 12:52, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)


 * Hmm. Looks like we could have a copyvio on our hands. That would really be a pain after so much work went into a translation. I'm not sure quite what to do with this... -- Jmabel 02:30, Jun 6, 2004 (UTC)


 * This passage refers to wayang golek rather than wayang kulit. I've replaced it in the 'dalang' article with what I believe is a better version, especially as that sits next to a photo showing a wayang kulit dhalang in front of something which is self-evidently NOT ' a wooden table'! I feel that collectively we can do better than a translation of a German article. I'm working on it a bit at a time - please have a look at what I've done so far with the 'dalang' article and tell me if I'm on the right lines, since I'm relatively new to Wikipedia. Tim Byard-Jones 12:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Tim, thanks a lot for your edits. It's great to see the attention being given and it doesn't go unnoticed. If I had a suggestion, it would be that inline citations are better than any list of references at the end of the article. Even if some of the texts you've just added weren't actually used to create info here, can some of the info be matched up to specific references in line cites? Merbabu 14:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks Merbabu - I'll go through again (probably not today, but soon) and match up some of the info I've given to specific publications. The works I've added to 'further reading' are intended to start a bibliography for anyone interested, but I can certainly cite them in the article for specific points too. BTW, is citing one's own published articles against Wikiquette? The link I added to the Seleh notes articles is actually to something I wrote, but since it's available online, adds (imho) to the article and doesn't involve me benefitting financially in any way, I felt it was legitimate. Feel free to delete it if it violates some rule of which I'm unaware. Tim Byard-Jones 15:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm moving the article
I love the article, but it is in the wrong place. It should be named just "wayang" as it is a good overview of all the different types of wayang. Wayang -- meaning puppet is the term for ALL Indonesian puppets. Wayang Kulit is just one type of wayang traditionally made from leather hides and used in shadow plays. Kulit means skin or hide. Each genre of Indonesian wayang deserves its own article. --Samuel Wantman 03:03, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I moved it and the talk page, (which must be obvious) --Samuel Wantman 06:46, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

With respect, are you sure this is a good idea? Although it's true that Wayang means "puppet" in the generic, it has broadened to include other types of performance. These are mentioned in the article (notably Wayang Wong and sendratari.) The page seems to describe specific shadow puppet theater more than Wayang as a general concept. Just wondering. Freddie deBoer 05:22, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

As far as i know "wayang" in Malaysia means a show, a film, a play, etc. Puppet in Malaysia is known as "patung". In Malaysia it seems that the term "Wayang kulit" has become a genricized definition for all forms of Wayangs. Not sure about Indonesia. I've never heard ppl call it simply "Wayang". Seems too vague IMO. kawaputra torque 07:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

But, Samuel wantman is right. Each genre deserve its own article, especially Wayang Kulit. kawaputra torque 07:09, 14 August 2007 (UTC)


 * In my experience, in Malay, at least in the 70s, "wayang" meant "theatre", so that "wayang gambar" ("picture theatre") meant "movies". I supposed the same thing was true in Central Java, as witness "wayang kulit" and "wayang wong", but I do not speak Javanese. "Patung" means "idol" or "doll" and I don't remember it being used for wayang kulit puppets. There are traditional Malay forms of wayang kulit, too, the most common of which used to be wayang Siam, but decades of attacks on Kelantanese wayang kulit as being non-Islamic helped to gravely diminish the artform that at least as recently as the 70s was featured in 3-day festivals of the sea ("Main Pantai") every year in pretty much every coastal village in Kelantan and Terengganu. Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:25, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

Wayang Orang
What about the 'Wayang Orang', where dressed up actors perform the play, on an outdoor stage?


 * I've wondered about that also, but isn't Wayang Wong the same thing? I don't know enough about the differences (if any) between Wayang Wong and  Wayang Orang to say. If you do, make the appropriate edits. --Samuel Wantman 19:49, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)


 * I believe (though I'm not sure) that "orang" means person (and is the root of loanword "orangutan"). -- Jmabel 23:49, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)


 * Yes, "orang" does mean person. "hutan" means jungle.  In Indonesian, the adjectives come after nouns, so "orang hutan" means "jungle person".
 * "Wong" is the Javanese word for person. So I believe they are the same thing.  But just because it makes sense doesn't make it so.  In practice, I don't know if there are any differences between Wayang Wong and Wayang Orang, even if the names have the same meaning --Samuel Wantman 08:28, 24 Jul 2004 (UTC)
 * Sure it's the sane thing! Now it just a choice of word(I'm Indonesian javanese)202.69.101.170 04:09, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is the same thing. "Wong" is the Javanese word for "person", as "orang" is the Indonesian for "person".Matahari Pagi 09:37, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

question on two recent edits
The following recent edits were made anonymously & without explanation.


 * "&hellip;shadows cast on a linen screen&hellip;" became "&hellip;shadows cast on a cotton screen&hellip;". The ones I've seen were certainly linen. It might have well been a linen made from cotton. Does someone have a citation on this?
 * "&hellip;which are traced out onto kulit (skin or leather)&hellip;" became "&hellip;which are traced out onto kulit (skin or parchment)&hellip;"; "&hellip;skin or leather&hellip;" is, I suppose, a pleonasm, but we should probably keep the word "leather" one way or another, with a link; also, does anyone have a citation for parchment being used in this context? I'm not saying it's not used, just not what I recall having seen. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:44, Apr 18, 2005 (UTC)
 * My understanding is it's a question of the materials used - "cotton" is from a cotton bush; "linen" is from the flax plant which isn't AFAIK grown in Indonesia owing to the climate. Similarly, leather is tanned for flexibility and parchment isn't - it's stretched, scraped and dried for stiffness. The hide from which wayang puppets are made is definitely processed as parchment, not leather. Although try asking an Indonesian about 'parchment puppets' and you'll get a blank look. I agree we need to keep the word 'leather' somewhere just to go with common usage. And just to clarify, I wasn't the person who made those edits. Tim Byard-Jones 15:09, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

To be integrated into article
The following was written anonymously into Shadow puppet, but clearly pertains more to Wayang. I don't have time right now to see what may already be in the article, but I'm leaving it here for later integration. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:27, July 13, 2005 (UTC)


 * For hundreds of years, the people of Indonesia have used shadow puppets to tell epic tales called the Ramayan and the Mahabharat [should be Ramayana and Mahabharata- JM]. The epics reenact the history and mythology of the people bringing demons, warriors gods, goddesses, and fabulous animals to the shadow screen. Through these plays, people who cannot read can learn about their culture and heritage. The performances, acted out at night, can last for several days. Many in the audience know the stories by heart.


 * In the tale "Ramayan", the god Rama saves his wife, Sita, from the demon, Ravan, with the help of the monkey-god Hanuman. Sita is kidnapped and taken to the island of Ceylon. There is a lot of fighting and aerial acrobatics. Sita is returned to her husband after the demon king, Ravan is beheaded.

Photo
What kind of puppets are shown in this photo? --Fir0002 03:54, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
 * Almost certainly Wayang Kulit, from what I can see. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:31, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
 * They certainly are - the one in his left hand is the demon Cakil, the one in his right is at an angle so hard to see properly, but certainly a 'bambang'-type halus warrior - from what I can see I'd guess Permadi (i.e. the young Arjuna). Tim Byard-Jones 21:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Additional lists?
Would it beneficial to list some of the characters from the traditional Wayang Kulit (such as Twalen, Murda, Bema, etc?) How about a list for important books and publications regarding Indonesian puppetry and dance (such as the Bali Arts and Culture Newsletter)? Freddie deBoer 05:23, 12 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Sure. - Jmabel | Talk 21:22, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

History of Islam Influence in Wayang
''When Islam began spreading in Indonesia, the display of God or gods in human form was prohibited, and thus this style of painting and shadow play was suppressed. King Raden Patah of Demak, Java wanted to see the wayang in its traditional form, but failed to obtain permission from the Muslim religious leaders.''

I'm not sure where the author have this version but as far as I know, it was Sunan Kalijaga, one of the Wali Sanga who wanted to play wayang. They were not only change the physical wayang but also the stories (such as omitting Drupadi's poliandry, or changing the sex of Srikandhi from male to female). Sunan Kalijaga also use Wayang as tools to spreading Islam Kunderemp 06:52, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Refs/Further reading
This article has a paucity of easily visible refs - if all the types are incorporated into one article - then a reasonable expectation is that from the large variety of materials that are available (in print as opposed to web baseed material) there should be speccific refs/further reading for each from of wayang - otherwise this particular article is not really user friendly? SatuSuro 13:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm working on it! Tim Byard-Jones 16:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

wayange puppets are made out of buffalo leather —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.181.114.170 (talk • contribs).

Major cuts: why?
Since I last checked this article a year ago it has lost an enormous amount of information. This seems to have occurred without any real discussion. Does anyone know what is going on? And shouldn't we restore a lot of the lost information? - Jmabel | Talk 19:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
 * I see. The major cut was recent, anonymous, and uncommented. It was simply vandalism. - Jmabel | Talk 20:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

gamelan is played in a wyang theatre —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.82.106.98 (talk) 07:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Issues
Moving from other projects is always a problem - as there are not many cited sources in the body of the text - this article should be tagged as such - and also there should be separate articles as the overall subject is far too big when described properly to be in one article. So rather than tag - separate sections might become separate articles to allow for further development. SatuSuro 01:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it is good to have an overall article, just to introduce the richness of wayang culture to people who only know something sbout its most form: wayang kulit. But yes all in all the article is quite large. Otto Ede Pool (talk) 06:50, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

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Wayang main article
The main article only describes wayang kulit. (Shadow puppets). Whereas I think it should clearly refer to the different kinds of wayang that are described in the further sections in the article. The article should start with a clear reference to wayang meaning "theatre" in general and then mention the (most well known) different forms, and point out that these are described in further sections. Otto Ede Pool (talk) 06:47, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Wayang gamelan connection
I think the gamelan - wayang connection is far stronger than now suggested in both the wayang and gamelan articles. What the leader of the djokjakarta sultans gamelan orchestra told me many years ago: Gamelan music in indonesian tradition is very often representing well known stories and tales mostly from ramayana and mahabarata that are performed in wajang. Different characters in these stories more or less have their own musical characteristics or themes. People still in this culture can distinguishly follow the stories  by only listening to the (radio broadcasted) music. Otto Ede Pool (talk) 07:04, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

infor box image
is repeatedly far too dark and lacking calirity, surely there is something clearer and better than what has been put up so far ? JarrahTree 08:17, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

A problem with the link
For some reason clicking on the Wayang Klithik page brings you to the Wayang Golek page Maestrofin (talk) 06:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)