Talk:We (novel)/Archive 1

Links
The link which I had inserted was removed In my view it should be restored - it is a serious examination of the novel by Prof. David Womersley - Thomas Warton Porfessor of English Literatute, University of Oxford
 * Prof David Womersley Yevgeny Zamyatin's We - The most enduring of the twentieth-century dystopias Social Affairs Unit Web Review
 * looks more like a blog rather then serious examination. btw, just curious why Proffersor of English Literature is researching about we? -- tasc talkdeeds 16:57, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Big Brother type
the article says that the Benefactor is "a Big Brother type leader", would not it be more correct to say that Big Brother is a Benefactor type leader?

What was the Original Title?

 * The following was anonymously posted: "the title translated literally from Russian as "My"". Could somebody provide the actual title and not the translation? -- sp  00n  17 :talk 05:29, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)


 * I think it's clearer now in the article. "My" is a transliteration, not a translation. -- Reuben 01:04, 3 Feb 2005 (UTC)


 * Indeed, that's clearer. -- sp 00n  17 :talk 05:29, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Copyright
Anyone know the status of the copyright as to the original and English language translation? Ellsworth 14:53, 19 May 2005 (UTC)


 * Best I can do to demonstrate 1924 was the year of the official english translation is this link to library of congress' We Catalog Entry.-- sp 00n  17 :color="#555577">talk 04:13, May 20, 2005 (UTC)


 * Talk:We (novel)/Sources has bibliographic records, including one for the 1924 translation. --Jtir 05:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Bible Codes and We
I am the original discoverer of the Bible Codes in We. In 1984, I published an article in Extrapolation, the Science Fiction Journal of Kent State University, outlining my theory. Here is a brief overview in my theory and the codes (Zamiatin was the son of an Orthodox priest, he knew the bible well; he also spoke English, the novel's alphanumerics were written using the English alphabet):

D-503- Deuteronomy 3:5-6 describes cities surrounded by walls and many people, the same setting as We.

O-90- Obidiah 9 Refers to the slaughter of the descendants of Esau, the people outside in We are described as hairy men, just like the biblical Esau. (This book has only one chapter see here Killer Swath 01:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC))

I-330- Isaiah 3:3-4 lists a series of people and positions, each one is found as a character in We.

R-13- Revelations Chapter 13 is the famous text of the beast whose number is 666, in the center of Zamiatin's city the plaza of the cube is surrounded by 66 concentric circles of seats. A cube has six sides putting the numerical value of 666 right in the center of the dystopian society.

S-4711- Sirach 47:11-12 describes a religious gathering where all of the people sing, this also happens in We (note: Zamiatin used the Eastern Orthodox Bible).

Every character with an alphanumeric name has a relevant biblical verse that relates to or reflects on the action or setting in We. Given the time Zamiatin lived in and the nature of the novel, it is the ultimate commentary on then current events: Zamiatin dared to criticize the emerging Soviet state and used his novel to compare Soviet Russia to the coming of Antichrist.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.33.246.44 (talk • contribs) 16:15, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

I am the discoverer of the relationship between the specifications for Zamyatin's favourite icebreaker Saint Alexander Nevsky and the numbers used in WE. The Armstrong Whitworth yard number and tonnage is as follows:

A/W 905 3300 round tonnage

Where O-90 and I-330 hold between them the hapless D-503 (305 would have been muddling)

4711 was and is the world-famous original Eau-de-Cologne, used by both men and women - hence a suitable number for an ambiguous 'number'.

Suely Zamyatin is being playful here rather than biblical, choosing a number no one could mistake (like 007, as it might be) four thousand higher than any other number in WE.

Nevertheless, The Bible thesis is ingenious (it explains R-13!) and I will investigate this further. With permission I may quote it in my running 'Zamyatin in Newcastle' article on my website (now accessed via www.myersnorth.co.uk)

Bandalore 02:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[Later] Alas, I find that the biblical references are really too tenuous to support a deliberate Zamyatin code. At this time in Newcastle, Zamyatin was poring over icebreaker drawings both at the shipyards and at home in Jesmond. The specification numbers are just another example of Z's direct use of the alien English setting - as he did in his two Newcastle novellas, Islanders and A Fisher of Men - as a backdrop for his dystopia. He may well have been sketching ideas for WE in Newcastle in 1917 and the subsequent career of his favourite vessel was dramatic enough in 1918-19 to keep it in the forefront of his mind.

R-13, however, which has no icebreaker connection as far as I know, could certainly be a deliberate reference to the well-known Revelation chapter. It would fit the dark mathematical humour and religious dimension of the novel. Anyway, very stimulating. Thanks.

Bandalore 11:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

200-year war Survival Rate
The text I have states "only 0.2 of the world's population survived", which sounds strange to me; it would have seemed more clear to write 1/5th. Is there a possibility that a percent sign was missed/omitted in translation/publication, or is this to be prescribed as a function of D-503's mathematical nature (that he innately would see no difference between 1/5th and 0.2)?

Anyone have any insight?


 * It is "выжило только 0,2 населения земного шара" in the original (note that in Russian the comma is used as the decimal point). It seems that expressing fractions as decimals is more common in Russian; indeed, it looks more natural to me than if it were "1/5th", at least in Russian.  It's hard to say whether such things should be changed by the translator or not. 128.189.158.39 00:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Wallsend
Wasn't it Wallsend he worked at, rather than Jesmond? Jesmond is an affluent suburb of Newcastle, Wallsend is the traditional shipbuilding area which is just outside Newcastle, in North Tyneside. Although he may have lived in Jesmond, shouldn't it be made clear that the shipyards are in Wallsend as that is the principal area from which he drew his influence? hedpeguyuk 16:00, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

The opening paragraph seems all right to me. Both Jesmond and the Tyne shipyards are mentioned as influential. Zamyatin travelled to several working locations around Tyneside, though Wallsend was his chief focus. The novel he wrote in Newcastle 'Islanders' is specifically set in Jesmond and contains many of the ideas expressed in WE. The latter novel actually quotes the earlier in several places. The pendant 'A Fisher of Men' also continues these themes, though it is notionally set in London, in Chiswick (where he never went, as far as is known). There are many Jesmond echoes in this novella too. The description of the church is almost certainly St George's Jesmond.

Bandalore 19.05 4 June 2006

Ebook - is it available?
I was just wondering if you could find this novel somewhere in cyberspace. There is not much that I know of about this novel - perhaps there could be some ebook sites that may offer this novel? --Lord X 00:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)User:Xinyu

I have added two links to full text versions -- one in Russian, one in English. I don't know the copyright status of either one, although I would guess that the English version is infringing the copyright on the translation.
 * --Jtir 00:21, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
 * The best way to protect against copyright is to find books from *.org, *.edu, or *.gov sites. I could not find any though :S . Killer Swath 01:36, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Natasha Randall translation
I've just added
 * A new translation by Natasha Randall was published in July 2006 (ISBN 081297462X).

to the article. Then I noticed that Amazon.com has at least 6 translations, so maybe I shouldn't have done that. (It's not hard to search Amazon.com for "Yevgeny Zamyatin", after all.) Feel free to revert me. Cheers, CWC (talk) 16:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)
 * User:Joshua Coxwell has just changed that sentence into a list of 4 translations. Good stuff! CWC (talk) 05:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Transliterations
What kind of transliterations are those: "Mu-ee", "Moi", or "Mwee"???! To me they seem completely nonsensical, neither corresponding phonetically nor transliterating letter by letter, but then maybe you have some reference... --Ben T/C 17:36, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point. I would suggest replacing them with the Latin transliteration and the IPA pronunciation. The article does give the Russian title, as do many other articles about Russian novels (War and Peace, The Brothers Karamazov, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, The First Circle). However, there is no consistency as to what additional information about the title is given. Articles on Russian authors are equally inconsistent (Leo Tolstoy, Fyodor Dostoevsky, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn). The Tolstoy and Dostoevsky articles provide audio clips, which is great idea.
 * ---Jtir 05:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * As it stands the reader sees no reference to the IPA. I suggest changing the end of the second sentence from "pronounced []."  to:  "pronounced [], and transliterated as my". (Note underlying link to Yery!) (Also: Although that looks phonemic, I did not add /slashes/, since transliterations claim to represent spellings, not phonemes.)  --Oryanw 19:34, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * I like your idea of linking from the transliteration, but I would have missed it if you hadn't pointed it out. There is a guideline that tells how to handle IPA pronunciations. I'm not sure it really addresses transliterations, but it seems like the style for Foreign_names can be adapted.  I made an edit incorporating these ideas, and added a footnote attempting to explain why the transliteration My looks exactly like an English word that is similar to the English translation.  It still needs work.
 * "We is a novel by Yevgeny Zamyatin" is a shorter sentence than the explanatory details about the two letter title. :-)
 * --Jtir 23:00, 18 September 2006 (UTC)


 * Good edit. Much better than my suggestion! If you would like "is a novel by" closer to the beginning, then maybe something like the following?

We (Russian: Мы) is a novel by Yevgeny Zamyatin, (written: 1920-1921), first published in English translation (1924), and not published in the Soviet Union until 1988. The title is the Russian first person plural personal pronoun, (Romanized: My, and pronounced ). The Romanization of the Russian letter ы (Yery) is the letter y. (The reader is cautioned against confusion with the English word my.) It was written in response ...
 * --Oryanw 00:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

That reads much better. Even though it is not standard, I put the additional info about the title in the footnote, because it solves the problem of a casual reader confusing the transliteration My for the English title. I'm not sure corresponds is the right term to explain the Romanization of (the?) yery. Shortening the first sentence also allows it to be expanded with more generally useful info. The characterization of the novel as dystopian comes from the introduction to Clarence Brown's translation, hence the second footnote on the first sentence.
 * --Jtir 15:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

A solid improvement over my wording. Again! :-) I agree the word corresponds is troublesome; to me it suggests more than it says, and, I think, more than we want.  I suggest the corresponding ;-) clause read as follows:   "because the English letter y is used to transliterate the Russian letter ы (Yery)".
 * --Oryanw 00:57, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Using transliterate works much better, except I preserved the before(ы)/after(y) structure. Is transliterate as standard usage?
 * --Jtir 19:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Jtir: Your last edits look great! as seems standard. Dictionary.com quotes Random House Unabridged Dictionary as giving the example: to transliterate the Greek Χ as ch.    Quick Google test has transliterate as outnumbering transliterat with four to one.
 * --Oryanw 21:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC) p.s. I enjoyed working on this with you.

Thanks and likewise! Guess we are OK on as. Thanks for checking -- you gave me a new bookmark.
 * --Jtir 23:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)