Talk:We Are Here to Change the World

Prop Deletion
"Information would be better included in the Captain EO page. At present, all relevant information on the song is already in there - no need for this one too."

This page must remain as proposed for deletion unless this concern is answered. Is it not true that all relevant information is on that page? Is it not true that this page is not one for a notable song (barely anyone heard it, not a single, not one of his most popular)? Is it not true that this page is so tiny it has little to offer the user in the first place? (The Elfoid (talk) 01:01, 22 December 2007 (UTC)) song is notable of its own accord, because it was released as a track on the ultimate collection. therefore it has notability apart from the show. I propose the article should stay.--Paaerduag (talk) 03:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
 * I suggest reading WP:PROD. Prod tags can be removed by anyone at any time, regardless of whether or not a concern brought up by the tagger is addressed.  --UsaSatsui (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

the fact that there is a cover version of the song further adds to its own, separate notability from the show.--Paaerduag (talk) 03:04, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

If every song that had a cover version had it's own Wikipedia page, the number of pages would be absolutely vast. It means nothing. It means some other singer, who had moderate success but nothing special, wanted to sing the song too. I am not saying all this information should not go on Wikipedia. What I'm saying is, why is it here and not just on the Captain EO page?

The song was released on The Ultimate Collection? So what? Michael Jackson had a huge influence on pop music, yes. He was revolutionary. The Ultimate Collection sold 250 000 copies, this song is not a well known one. His period of influence was with The Jackson 5 in the 70s, and a solo artist in the 80s and early/mid 1990s. Nothing he has done since then has been a major attention grabber, really. Most people probably don't even know Ultimate Collection exists.

HOW TO DEAL WITH OUR DISAGREEMENT I suggest we weigh up pros and cons. Feel free to edit my post bellow. I feel sure I have missed out points, or got the wrong idea on some. If other people add/remove stuff and we work through it, a path ahead will become clear. For now I have put down anything I see as useful. Obviously since I see few reasons to keep it, I've not been able to think of much to put down there.

(The Elfoid (talk) 17:26, 22 December 2007 (UTC))

Reasons to delete

 * Not a well known song
 * Not an influential song
 * Never received any press attention
 * Became available in audio format on a relatively unknown release long after Jackson stopped being famous
 * Not a single release
 * Compared to Jackson's other songs it is easily one of the least well known
 * Due to lack of audio release until 2004, after which it was both an old song and one that did not make a major release, it has never received any airplay on any major radio stations
 * No music video (in-movie dance sequence does not count as a music video)
 * The singer who covered it is no one terribly famous; she deserves a page and a discography. Maybe album pages, but she is no one special
 * The cover of the song is not very well known at all and was not released as a single
 * To suggest this was an important moment in Jackson's career dilutes the importance and focus on other things both in his career and in that of other musicians
 * There is barely any information on this page
 * All the information is available on the Captain EO page
 * The film was remembered for it's 3D effects, both ahead of their time and remarkably accessible given their expense - the music was a small part of the appeal
 * Cover albums often do not have a page for each song included, even if they are by major artists
 * If demand was high enough, or the song popular enough, it would probably have been released on either an album or another compilation; possibly as a bonus track on the Special Editions or something
 * The Ultimate Collection was four CDs and a DVD. Standing out in a set of albums featuring a vast selection of international number ones is very hard - the critics reviewing Ultimate Collection never said much about it
 * despite the article already being very short, there's a comment in there on the 'upbeat tempo' that needs citing - the article may well end up even shorter
 * Absolutely ridiculed by critics as one of the worst songs ever put out on a Jackson album. It was really, really, really unpopular
 * The song cannot be mentioned without major references to all the criticism the song received. This isn't a major issue, but it would receive Jackson fans "purging" the page of "insults" from "Jackson haters" and would require a lot of work to keep it clean constantly when frankly, we all have better things to do

Press reviews

 * Rolling Stone's review of Ultimate Collection claims the song was "little missed" - they felt it was not important that it had gone unreleased
 * Allmusic.com's review of Ultimate Collection claims it is "ridiculously stilted" and the production on the song "seems better suited for The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai than a Disney sci-fi flick"
 * Robert Christgau did not deem the song worth mentioning in his review of Ultimate Collection on his website
 * Pitchfork Media state "It's difficult to believe that someone thought these tracks were more worthy of inclusion than "The Love You Save"." when speaking about We Are Here and another song on the compilation suggesting the songs are not ones a listener will pay much attention to
 * Keith Phillips for The AV Club stated it was part of a "fans-only detour into rarity territory" on the Collection confirming the song's lack of fame, notability etc.

Reasons to keep

 * It was part of a major attraction which ran for years all over the world and a lot of people went to
 * Michael Jackson is a major artist
 * It was covered by a moderately successful and respected artist
 * It was deemed good enough to release on a major anthology which, despite being relatively un-known compared to Jackson's other work, still sold 250, 000 copies
 * It could be argued that as one of Jackson's few 80s songs to be so universally hated by critics, it's worthy of mention for being unusually poorly received. This would also fill up space on the page
 * The attraction ran both during and after the peak of Jackson's career

Should we AFD this to draw more people into the discussion?
I quite like the idea of weighing up pros and cons, especially since this page would be a re-direct and not a total deletion. It's just fairer than relying on opinions since that allows biased ideas to creep in. That said, if this page goes AFD there is no way in hell it will be kept I can say that now. I was hoping this could be dealt with by myself and the article's creator with this discussion but with the comments he left in the edit logs clearly this is not the case. Either way, this page will be deleted (there's no way it could survive an AFD - no way at all), I just hoped to deal with it more smoothly. (The Elfoid (talk) 21:23, 23 December 2007 (UTC))

hehe.... once again you're putting on that 'I'm superior to you' voice. Ok, fine. I just thought it highly strange that you would even find this page, so I reached the conclusion that you pored through my talk page and found it, and then wanted to cause some strife. Probably, that is what happened, but I suppose it makes no difference. I still think the page is notable, and could be expanded, but I don't have the time. It has potential, but I can't be on wiki all the time: I have a life. So please don't take it to AfD right now. I'm sorry I lost my cool, but I'm going through some stuff right now and I've been a bit stressed lately. I shouldn't have taken it out here though. I will discuss this with you.--Paaerduag (talk) 02:32, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I found it because one by one I looked at every non-single track with a page and looked at what had been done with it. We need to have reasons to keep this other than it's inclusion on an anthology. I think more can be done with it, not much but a little. But what is best is to re-direct to Captain EO and get writing on there. If it expands to deserving a page, so be it. (The Elfoid (talk) 03:10, 24 December 2007 (UTC))

My opinion is that it should either be expanded or re-directed. That said I think it could easily be expanded. I think it still have potentail. Realist2 (talk) 13:14, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

The video for the song is a part of the film, so that does not belong here really though a little insight into the song's meaning and context would not to amiss. The horrendous press attention it's received could go with it too I suppose, though it belongs on The Ultimate Collection's page too. We can expand it on the EO page and give it a page if it gets long enough to deserve it - that's a better way. A song no one remembers, cares about or likes that is moderately difficult to get ahold of (buying a 4CD/1DVD box set is not exactly cheap) that did not influence or effect the lives of anyone which was not released as a single or at an important time in Jackson's life (1986 was a quiet year while he worked on Bad) really can't justify a page. If we find it ends up an in depth article, maybe. But I've trimmed the page down to it's bare bones and it's only about 60 words now. (The Elfoid (talk) 20:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC))

I've continued shaving down un-required words to find out what this article really has to offer right now, and it's nothing at all. Unless you guys get working on this I'll merge it sometime...it's a joke right now. Worthy of the unreferenced, notability and stub tags already on it. (The Elfoid (talk) 17:46, 27 December 2007 (UTC))

Merge proposal

 * Support merge - Aside from the long list above, this song has no notability other than the fact that it is in Captain EO. Everything in this article can easily be included in Captain EO. - eo (talk) 15:03, 28 December 2007 (UTC)


 * eo made the merge, and given we'd left this page lying around for a few days I think that's a good thing.

| We Are Here to Change the World

That's an archive of the page, it's quite clear it just had to go if no one came up with anything useful. If the section for it on the Captain EO page gets big enough we can move it back to it's own page I guess. (The Elfoid (talk) 21:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC))