Talk:Welfare colonialism

Tempering Expectations
This is a very short article about a very complex subject. In looking at the magisterial article on Settler Colonialism I noticed that it has been developed over the course of 15 years. So this represents just a toe in the water, the first word but not the last. Iguana0000 (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Images
Copy pasted from Goldsztajn's talk page, continued here. Goldsztajn (talk) 07:43, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Quick Q (and much much much thanks). What do you think of either the first or last photo in this article to illustrate the welfare colonialism page? I believe I could secure permission for either; the first was taken by a now-deceased member of an activist family whom I imagine might allow its use and the last is a public monument. Iguana0000 (talk) 16:48, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Iguana0000 - glad the comments proved helpful! In terms of the photos...this is hard. I'm not sure these images unambiguously depict welfare colonialism: yes, Indigenous people are depicted, yes, they are related to welfare policies of the governemnt ... but is this an image illustrating welfare colonialism? My point is just because two aspects of a subject are illustrated, it does not make that a depiction of the subject. Again, it appears to me a type of synthesis.  You really need a source that refers to this particular process as part of welfare colonialism (and even then one would need to qualify this ... so and so has called etc, rather than just using wikipedia's voice).  On the other hand, an image which depicted, for example, an Indigenous writer who has criticised welfare colonialism might be more appropriate or an image of Paine. Or possibly protests against welfare policies ... again this one is also hard ... my precusory understanding of Paine's use of welfare colonialism is that he is pointing to a period after assimiliation policies (so he would not (?) classify child removal policy within the rubric of welfare colonialism).  However, a picture of the hospitals built by the Belgians in the Congo could be used since that is explicitly discussed in the source I cited in the peer review as a form of welfare colonialism. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 03:39, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Many good points. Re the Canadian gov't response to the tuberculosis epidemic and its relation to welfare colonialism, I was thinking back to this book -- https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520282940/life-beside-itself -- where the author traces the similarities in the government response to both the tuberculosis and more recent youth suicide "epidemics". I'm not sure whether she uses the term 'welfare colonialism' per se but certainly the gist is there (and I can ask her). She documents how the government's response in both cases was enormously disruptive, inefficient, heedlessly disrespectful to the people it was trying to save, ignored the suggestions of the local community and had long-term negative effects. In particular it involved removal of those deemed ill, who were transported hundreds of miles to facilities where they could not communicate with anyone. If someone died their families were not notified. To the Inuit it paralleled infamous removal strategies such as residential schools, the Sixties_Scoop (which themselves were imagined to be benign, even beneficent gestures, by those who dreamed them up). Inuit suggestions of how to address these problems in a less destructive way were of course ignored because ... what do they know. Iguana0000 (talk) 20:51, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Just checked and she does quote Robert Paine quite a bit, also mentions welfare colonialism. Iguana0000 (talk) 20:58, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi - continuing this here, better to leave a record of the conversation where it might be more easily found or be useful for others. I'm only able to access that text via Google Books, which only shows up a single textual hit for "welfare colonialism". So that source is not possible for me to verify the claim.  However, this earlier piece by Stevenson in the American Ethnologist, I can access, and for the purposes of the article, I think it would be acceptable to state something along the lines of: "Lisa Stevenson of McGill University has termed the Canadian government's anti-tuberculosis programmes targeting the Inuit as a form of welfare colonialism."  Ideally one would use the photo in the article (fig 4, p.596), rather than the one in the CBC story, but I think the CBC story one would be ok. (Although, personally, I prefer refraining from the use of images of children unless there is parental consent...but that's not policy AFAIK). Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 07:43, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify, obviously, use of those photos would require permission! Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 08:25, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * The image in the Stevenson article (fig.4) might be a Crown copyright image and thus now in public domain (assuming created before 1972 as it appears to have been). Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 08:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Are you able to say a bit more or point me to information regarding use on wikipedia of photographs taken by Canadian government/public agencies? I have been looking but haven't found the proper source. Re the image you identified, (fig 4, p.596), setting aside the question of usage rights, how would you propose to obtain a copy that's hi-res enough for use? Iguana0000 (talk) 16:41, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * @Iguana0000 - Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Canada. Also, see the template.  In terms of a high-res image, one is probably held here: Health Sciences Archives since that is the source given in the article; there's a contact address given there.  However, a screen grab of the image from the article would work. You can also initiate a discussion about the photo's status here: Commons Village Pump. Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 20:29, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * OK I sent a note to the archive. Another question (I suppose this should be broken out into another topic but I will leave that to you). You wrote ""Relatively little has been written about the role Welfare Colonialism played in the debasement of Native American tribal institutions and by extension their quality of life." What sources indicate "relatively little has been written"? This appears to be original research." My original research as such consisted of searching in various databases for articles containing discussions of welfare colonialism and native americans and to my surprise finding very little.  I wrote to the author of the two papers cited, both about the Seminoles, asking in part:
 * Would you say it's the case that (trying to spare you having to write a lengthy response):
 * A) there is literature on welfare colonialism and native americans that I have simply overlooked
 * B) there is literature on analogous phenomena among native americans, just not using this specific term to describe it
 * C) this concept has simply not been a valuable framework for understanding indigenous communities within the United States.
 * I haven't received a response and don't expect to. How would you recommend I proceed? As always thanks for your guidance. Iguana0000 (talk) 21:27, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Hi @Iguana0000 - as a general principle when developing content in Wikipedia, especially in topics that deal with complex social issues, the best approach is to only draw on the reliable sources you *have*, don't look for sources to satisfy statements one makes. Also, just to be precise, original research (WP:OR) in Wikipedia is not engaging in research on a topic to create content, it is writing statements that are not supported by secondary reliable sources.  That's why I'm indicating your statememnt is original research - you are writing about your research and your views of that research. (To be clear, I'm not saying you are wrong or right, I'm saying the statement is not supported by reliable sources).
 * In this specific case, if the person replies, they may point you to some published reliable sources, well and good, but almost anything else will not be reliable as it will be a personal communication. If you do not have a reliable source stating, "this concept has not been widely applied in the US" or "this concept has not been written about much in the US context" (or words to that effect), then the claim should be removed from the article. I hope this helps.  Kind regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 23:00, 10 January 2023 (UTC)
 * I hear you but in this case material on welfare colonialism and native americans seems conspicuous in its absence, esp given the wealth of material on circumstances in Canada and Australia. If there is material and I'm simply missing it, it would seem an omission to leave it out.  How would you recommend checking whether this ostensible lack of material is due to an oversight on my part or whether there simply isn't much there (even if I don't say that in the article)? Iguana0000 (talk) 13:28, 11 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Other than thorough searches in Google Scholar, Google Books, JSTOR and Scopus - not sure I can suggest more. I came across Jessica Cattelino, who looks to apply the concept in her work on the Seminole. This is purely speculation on my part, but welfare colonialism was a widely used term in the United States in the 1960s, but used almost exclusively it seems in relation to African-Americans and welfare policy (Saul Alinksky appears to have greatly popularised it). It could be that history has made writers in the US less comfortable using it.  Regards, Goldsztajn (talk) 11:13, 12 January 2023 (UTC)