Talk:Wellerman

Classification as a sea shanty
Should this be listed as a sea shanty when it's apparently more of a whaling ballad that has a chorus? Eowar (talk) 08:39, 16 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Changed description. --Tobias (Talk) 14:02, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
 * I have changed this back but kept Whaling ballad in the infobox. While I get what this person is saying, going by the massive number of other sources that are now talking about this song and using sea shanty to describe it, that it is more appropriate.


 * Whaling ballard, , though I note the NYT and Insider is the same person interview.


 * Sea shanty, , , , ,


 * Folk song, (page 14)


 * There also could be an argument to also include folk song in the infobox as well but I hadn't done that. NZFC  (talk) (cont)  21:20, 19 January 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes, there are plenty of examples where the Wellerman is identified as a sea-shanty in the context of describing the phenomenon, but that only demonstrates that it is often referred to as a shanty, not that it is a shanty. Every source that deals with whether or not it's actually a shanty says that it's not. The only source for it being a shanty is this link (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/style/sea-shanty-tiktok-wellerman.html) where a museum curator doesn't even say that that it is, just that it "could have been a cutting-in shanty" (sidenote, the only context I can find the term "cutting-in shanty" ever being used is this very quote, so even the existence of such a thing is questionable), and even then the same link has a "folk musician and music educator in Cambridge, Mass." explicitly say that it's not a shanty.-- Salasay  &Delta;  23:35, 27 January 2021 (UTC)


 * It is repeatedly described as a shanty, and is blowing up all over Shanty Tik Tok, but calling a tail a leg doesn’t mean a cat has 5 legs. See Sea_shanty for a discussion of the work songs vs. the other stuff… this is definitely the other stuff. —  crism  ( talk )  03:19, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Reverted edit
I reverted, since no source was given that connects the song to Invercauld (ship) and I couldn't find anything in a quick search. --Tobias (Talk) 16:26, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Year of origin in doubt
How can the song originate from 1860-70, when the Weller Brothers were declared bankrupt in 1840 and Otakou station wase closed in 1841? Also the mentioning of "1860-70" is a claim without reference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:16B8:1CBC:E600:FC57:B35:421C:873C (talk) 11:03, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi IP, thanks for pointing that out. The reference for the date was down under history section. Have copied up into the lede as well. So though the song was about the brothers whaling business, it was written years later.


 * "The impact of the Weller brothers on the development and early imagination of the region was significant. In the 1860-1870 period a folksong (writer unknown) titled Soon May the Wellerman Come was coined. The song’s lyrics highlight the way that many whaling stations relied upon the ‘wellermen’ as from 1833 ships used by the Wellers travelled the coast from their Ōtākou base to sell provisions to other whaling operations." Thanks NZFC  (talk) (cont)  12:04, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

The referenced/cited 2014 paper by A. Asbjørn Jøn that you quote ([3] from Article,p. 100-101) provides itself no clear citation as to the source of this dating. The most apparently relevant references are:  footnote 20, an apparent deadend, which lists: a 2008 CD Daviid [sic] Coffin and the Natucket Sleighride, at a defunct Amazon link, http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002TUV17K/ref=dm_ws_sp_ps_dp/184-0933369-1397625 which might have had something in the linter notes, I suppose this bandcamp album: https://pinnipedmusic.bandcamp.com/album/toe-in-the-water which has no prose making any such claim I see this youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9i2gv_XQtw&safe=active, which the description of refers to the song as "a New Zealand sea song from the 1800s"</li> </ul></li> <li> A reference in the body as "The song is also listed—with a detailed historical explanation and transcription on <www.folksong.org.nz>." Based on that description, I assume Jøn is referring to the same page that is [1] from the Article,<dl><dd> I wanted to break in on myself here to say that, though (I think because of the colors of text and background) I also missed it before, there is also the fact that the <tt>folksong.org.nz</tt> Weller page header contains an explicit (and unsourced) 1860-1870 claim: Absent any other better candidate, I suspect this is the extent of Jøn's sourcing in his paper. ~ Donald Guy (talk) 03:54, 1 February 2021 (UTC)</dd></dl> and which John Archer, the author of that page, is the interviewee around which the Guardian article that is [11] from the Article is constructed

<tt>folksong.org.nz</tt> is used in the History section to include the possible authorship by "D.H. Rogers". In that section of the page, Archer does speculate (from 2002) that if Rogers was the author, AND he was born c. 1820, he might "could have been a teenaged sailor and/or shore whaler around NZ in the late 1830s, settled in Australia, written the shanties in his later years as his composing skills developed," – which could broadly conform to an c.  1860-1870 origin, but is based on ~3 levels of speculation (that Woods' uncle was the author rather than someone who also learned the song from an earlier source, that Woods' uncle was Rogers, and when Rogers was born) </li></ol> <dd>In general, I would say the authority of both sources is unclear. Another option would be for someone (BOLDer than I) to email either Jøn or Archer and ask after their sources to cite in turn. It seems to be the case that an email for (an) A. Asbjørn Jøn (affiliated, like the paper's author, with the University of Canterbury) is avaliable here, and there is an email for Archer on the upper right of the homepage of <tt>folksong.org.nz</tt></dd> <dd>If one were really wants to get to the bottom of the issue, one might consider tracking down a copy of (the 2010 reprint) of Colquhoun's book (ISBN 978-1877448287) and see if it has any prose that clarifies specifics of Colquhoun's collection from Woods, and Wodds' knowledge of it? ~ Donald Guy (talk) 02:35, 1 February 2021 (UTC)</dd></dl></dd></dl>

The oldest proven origin of the song may be the 1973 book But I refrain from editing this, because I have not read it. I can find no earlier reference to the song in digitized Australian or NZ newspapers. If the book is the first publication, then the song is said to have been 'collected' (misappropriated) and copyright belongs to the editor Neil Colquhoun. Tradimus (talk) 13:44, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

I believe, admittedly without evidence, that the song was written by Neil Colquhoun himself, and is thus modern. An analysis of the lyrics could probably establish that. The tall tale of a whaler - clearly not an actual ship or it would bear the name of a real vessel - is conveniently combined with a Moby Dick-style fight to the death, with a touch of the Flying Dutchman. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2401:7000:D84E:AE00:D4FA:1DD9:822E:DDB5 (talk) 01:30, 26 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Yes, as a scholar of historical maritime music, I can confirm that people write "new" songs all the time about old subjects, and the lyrical content strikes me as a modern text trying hard to insert a lot of old things, too "perfectly." It does not sound like a traditional/19th c. song. I have researched the 19h century record deeply, and nothing like "The Wellerman" or songs about the Weller Brothers or references to "tonguing" has crossed my desk.
 * I have an analysis of the whole situation that I think is convincing, but I won't edit the page to add it because it is "original research."
 * Just to add a taste of it: Wellerman was first recorded on an album organized by Neil Colquhoun (the guy who claimed to "collect" it from a mysterious source) by another NZ folk revival singer in his circle, Tommy Wood. Shortly after, Colquhoun publishes his nationalistic Kiwi folk songs collection. The melody in the collection is completely different than what Tommy Wood sang on the album. How can that be, if Colquhoun really got the song from someone else? Colquhoun would have noted the melody from his mysterious source and taught it to Tommy Wood. At best, C only collected an un-sung text (like a poem) from his source. I'd guess if that happened it was only one verse, and then C fleshed out the rest of the lyrics and set it to a tune. There's a compelling case to be made that the tune was a reworking of the contemporary folk-pop hit, "The Lightning Tree." But again, I can't include any of that in the Wiki.
 * The only option for the Wiki, however, is to remain neutral and not make unsubstantiated claims nor use unreliable sources. DrBaldhead (talk) 09:03, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

History: Cite check/Verfiability concern
In reading and comparing the texts of As well as just reading/skimming
 * the Article's [1]: http://www.folksong.org.nz/soon_may_the_wellerman/index.html
 * the the Article's [3]: https://journals.kvasirpublishing.com/af/article/view/192/264
 * a paper by A. Asbjørn Jøn that's limited discussion of Wellerman I believe is sourced entirely back to [1], as I discussed in my comments in Year of origin in doubt
 * the Article's [11]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/15/shantytok-how-a-19th-century-seafaring-epic-inspired-a-covid-generation
 * an article built around an interview with the author of [1]
 * the Article's [12]: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/13/style/sea-shanty-tiktok-wellerman.html
 * the Article's [13]: https://www.elsewhere.co.nz/fromthevaults/5262/neil-colquhoun-talking-swag-1972/

I gained some concern about the whole run of citations in the History section of the article:

In short, [1] seems to be the only internet source on the History of the song in this article and additional sources in the section (except Dyer's non-comittal quote in [12]) are all indirect citations of it,

and at least the first below is misconstruing what it says.

It would probably be best if an interested party (say a a member of WikiProject New Zealand's Music task force) could get a copy of Colquhoun, or in contact with Archer (via the email on the www.folksong.org.nz homepage?) to ferret out his sources 😄


 * [11a] "While its authorship is unknown, it may have been written by a teenage sailor or shore whaler[11]"
 * The line being cited appears to be asserting the song's authorship by a teenage whaler, contemporaneously to the author's adolesence & whaling
 * but this [11] red would seem to be to this fragment from the guardian article: *Researching that link led Archer to shanties published in The Bulletin paper in Sydney in 1904.

His Google “guesswork” suggests Wellerman’s composer was a teenage sailor or shore whaler around New Zealand in the late 1830s, who penned the ditty on settling in Australia then passed it down within his family around the turn of the century.
 * This fragment, which somewhat undercuts its own authority, seems to be in reference to identically Archer's theory in [1] that F. R. Woods' uncle (who may or may not have been D. H. Rogers) wrote it, as well as stating per se that Archer believes the song to have written years or decades after potential teenage whaling work.

Following [11a] the sentence continues on citing the NYTimes quoting "Michael P. Dyer, the maritime curator at the New Bedford Whaling Museum in Massachusetts."
 * [12] "and may have served as a "cutting-in shanty" that whalers would sing as they slaughtered a whale.[12]''
 * This would jive with the lyrical reference to "Tonguing" that Archer cites in [1] and would further support contemperanous usage / authorship to active whaling
 * but, and just kinda amusingly to me: that NYTimes article goes on to quote Gerry Smyth—of later in the article's "despite being more accurately described as a ballad."[11][19] fame— at length on the existence of varieties of shanties, like the cutting-in shanty, but does not repeat his claim Wellerman is not one due to lack of call and response, published 9 days earlier (on Insider)


 * [13] "It was originally collected around 1966 by New Zealand-based music teacher and folk song compiler Neil Colquhoun[13]"

[13] does discuss Neil Colquhoun's existence and his authorship/editing of "Song of a Young Country" but does not adress the 1916 collection or mention Wellerman in any way

This should perhaps read "It was originally collected around 1966 by Glenfield College music teacher[13] and folk song compiler Neil Colquhoun"

I have not been able to find a specific source for the 1966 or "around 1966" claim, other than – again Archer's statment as such in [1] and downstream sources therefrom

... There is more of the History section where that is the only citation... then


 * [14] "In 1973, "Soon May the Wellerman Come" was included in Colquhoun's book of New Zealand folk songs, New Zealand Folksongs&colon; Songs of a Young Country.[14]"


 * [14] is a Cite book to the book via its Google Books entry. While its inclusion in the book would be verifiable if somone has a copy (and isn't something I doubt, its also stated in [1]) - the Google Books page has no table of contents nor scans of the book.


 * Additionally I cam across a pretty good article (as yet uncited here— it does not mentioned Wellerman other than in the Spotify link, but says more about Colquhoun and the book, as well as the eponomous accompanying album ): https://www.audioculture.co.nz/scenes/song-of-a-young-country


 * Which asserts a few notable things:
 * It asserts the book was from 1972, not 73. Though it asserts it came out a year after the album which it claims came out in 71 (but is cataloged by streaming services, though actually apparently from the 2010 CD, as 1972)
 * It mentions the book's 2010 republishing / new edition by Steele Roberts and gives the revised title which in turn points us to new ISBNs: ISBN 1877448281 / ISBN 978-1877448287 (sellers on Amazon purportedly have 5 copies at this writing)

Yours in spending.. just WAAAAY too much time today thinking about this song, ~ Donald Guy (talk) 05:09, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 12 February 2021
<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;">
 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: Moved  (t &#183; c)  buidhe  11:41, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

Soon May the Wellerman Come → Wellerman – This short name appears to be the gernerally used name of the tune, especially during the modern revival. Seems like all modern covers and media attention prefers the short title, and it also googles over 80x as much as the full title. The WP:COMMONNAME should take precedence over the WP:OFFICIALNAME. Gaioa (T C L) 11:35, 12 February 2021 (UTC)


 * Support but keep redirect Clearly the song is now known as just "Wellerman" so agree page should be moved but I think it doesn't hurt to keep a redirect from the official name of the original song as well. Its clearly referenced as such when you actually look into the articles. NYT says official name three times, LA times has it twice times plus two more times in lyrics in the story, The Guardian mentions the name twice and then NZ Folk Song website says that is its original name as well. NZFC  <sup style="color:black">(talk) <sup style="color:black">(cont)  22:13, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thought it was implied that there would be a redirect; page moves leave a redirect behind by default. Saucy[talk – contribs] 08:04, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks that is my mistake for reading the "no redirect" and thinking that was Gaioa saying the page should be moved with no redirect left behind, instead of what it is, as wiki markup, and just not creating one on the talk page.  NZFC  <sup style="color:black">(talk) <sup style="color:black">(cont)  08:53, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Support - WP:COMMONNAME. Saucy[talk – contribs] 08:04, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Support, but keep redirect. Nadzik (talk) 11:37, 14 February 2021 (UTC)
 * Support 67.3.17.54 (talk) 20:25, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

1977 version
This song was recorded and videotaped by The Irish Rovers in 1977. It can be found on YouTube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhYPCb4RQDc Grandma Roses (talk) 13:20, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Inclusion of parodies in Popular Culture
I would propose adding some mentions of parodies in the section referring to the 2021 re-popularization. A prime example is the "Kittyman" parody posted to YouTube on 30 Jan 2021 by the Trailer Park Boys channel that has garnered millions of views. It wouldn't deserve its own entry, but probably makes sense to record in this article.

I would be happy to help add this content if I can. I don't know if this version has history beyond the recent revival of the ballad or not. I am also not particularly aware of any other popular parodies, but I was not aware of the trend and repopularization of this ballad. I actually bumped into the "Kittyman" parody first, and as I'm a fan of this style of music and the tune was familiar, I went looking for the inspiration and the history of the original.

Source: The Lightning Tree?
The provenance of this song as dating from the 19c is extraordinarily weak. The tune also seems to bear an astonishingly close resemblance to "The Lightning Tree", the theme of the TV series Follyfoot (1971-1973), popular just before "Wellerman" magically appeared (1973). It seems odd that the article doesn't address this question, even if just to put to rest the natural suspicion. Starple (talk) 12:29, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

New Adaptations
So this is two pronged and I was wondering if its notable enough to be included:

-The Toonami block of Adult Swim aired an adaptation of this back in 2022, formatted to fit One Piece (anime). You can tell its based on the song due to the similar beat. https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=ggBJ_n5SjF0itIL6&v=rTBX07A3obI&feature=youtu.be

-Skull and Bones (video game) uses a version of this song in a trailer of theirs. Its on Apple Music atm https://music.apple.com/us/album/wellerman-sea-shanty-skull-and-bones-version/1726397518?i=1726397527

So i was wondering if either of these is notable enough to be mentioned in the article? Figured I’d bring it up so it can be discussed properly. OWGNicholas (talk) 15:28, 16 February 2024 (UTC)