Talk:Welsh Labour/Archive 1

Party leader
I don't want to get into a tiresome edit war about this, but I have to point out that Rhodri Morgan is not leader of the Wales Labour Party. Unlike, for example, the Liberal Democrats, the UK Labour Party is not a federal organisation. Tony Blair is therefore the leader of the Welsh section of the Labour Party. I appreciate that most people regard Rhodri Morgan as the Leader (and that is often media shorthand), but he is in fact leader only the National Assembly Labour Party.

To blur this distinction is to suggest that Ken Livingstone is Leader of the London Labour Party. Wikipedia is about factual information - and these are the facts. Normalmouth 19:59, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Whither Welsh Labour?
Welsh Labour IS a constituent part of the Labour Party. It was before it became a separate accounting unit. It was during the time it was a separate accounting unit. And it is now that it is once more not a separate accounting unit. Please check the numerous academic sources cited in the article if you dispute this. tks. Normalmouth 22:35, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

PPERA Party registration and accounting
I have amended the history section to clarify Welsh Labour's status under PPERA and made a further reference to the accounting units of the party in Wales. Normalmouth 23:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

When was Welsh Labour founded?
Please stop inserting the wholly false claim that Welsh Labour has only been around since 1999. The rest of the article belies this and is sourced. Your source does not do the same. If you persist, I will report you for vandalism. Normalmouth 22:50, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * "Welsh Labour" was created in 1999 - I have provided a reference for that as well.Lenincymru2007 23:09, 19 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Sorry, this source is wrong - see the sources referred to in the article. Normalmouth 06:11, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * No the source is not wrong, it is completely accurate. A Labour spokesperson accepted the story's veracit. If you continue to remove it, I will have to report you for vandalism. Also, why are you insistent on restoring a typo spelling separate as 'separarate'[sic]Lenincymru2007 09:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * There appears to be some confusion with terminology. Welsh Labour (as in the part of the Labour Party that operates in Wales) has been in existence since 1947, as affirmed by the sources used in this article. That is why the article says "Wales Labour Party, also known as Welsh Labour". "Welsh Labour" as a specific brand was indeed created in 1999 and was merely one of a long sequence of names, starting with the "Welsh Regional Council of Labour" and including both "Labour Party Wales" and "Wales Labour Party". If you wish to devise some wording to reflect this, please do so. But do not contradict the article, and the sources, by suggesting that there was no Welsh part of the party until 1999. This is simply factually wrong. Normalmouth 09:42, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You seem to be missing the point, Welsh Labour has not existed as a autonomous unit of the Labour Party since 2006. In stark contrast to the Scottish Labour Party. This page links from a search from Welsh Labour.Lenincymru2007 09:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * the intro is careful not to make such a claim. All it says is that the WLP is the part of the LP that operates in Wales, which is true and has been since 1947.


 * However, for the record, the WLP does have autonomy in the areas indicated in the structure section. Accordingly, I'll revert. Normalmouth 12:56, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It does however, say "also known as Welsh Labour", so it tries to indicate that the Labour Party in Wales and Welsh Labour are synonymous, which they are not. Welsh Labour is defunct. I have reverted accordingly.Lenincymru2007 21:58, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The Wales Labour Party IS also known as Welsh Labour. See, , , and , so the statement is accurate. I have reflected your edit about the cessation of the separate accounting unit in the structure section. Reverted. Normalmouth 23:47, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I am not denying that it is referred to as Welsh Labour, but to provided balance in the opening. Also why do you insist on taking the source out of links. That is surely informative to the reader. Your piece is not balanced without it. Reverted. Lenincymru2007 12:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Let's try and unpack the offending sentence, to try and reach agreement:


 * 1. The Wales Labour Party is also known as Welsh Labour. I have provided supporting evidence. Do you now accept this?
 * 2. The Wales Labour Party is the part of the Labour Party that operates in Wales. This statement says nothing about autonomy, distinctiveness of accounting units, legal identity. It is merely a factual statement about the sub-division, or part of the LP that operates in Wales.


 * If you accept these two clauses. the atatment must stand. Your edit, to say that Welsh Labour ceased to exist in 2006, can only confuse unless it is given explanation. The place to do this is in the structute, where we talk about office of leader and so on.


 * I can't allow this confusion to stand and have thus reverted. Normalmouth 13:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * at least two of your 'five' examples are invalid (one is self-reference and another just refers to "Labour's Welsh conference", but have offered a further compromise in any case. Lenincymru2007 20:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Self references are allowed (the criteria is how something is known, that icludes self definition). I included the other to which you object, because it provides a link to "Welsh Labour". I suggest you re-read it.

You suggested wording works well in the structure section, so I've moved it there. Normalmouth 21:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * You have reneged on your promise and removed the sentence. Lenincymru2007 10:05, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


 * See PPERA Party registration and accounting below. Normalmouth 10:58, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Name - Welsh Labour
Can someone please find me ONE decent reference where this party is called the Wales Labour Party? Everywhere from its own media to any journalist article that doesn't originate from England referes to it as Welsh Labour, derived from the Welsh language name Llafur Cymru. It is about time we resolved this factual error and corrected this blaring mistake, particularly when the even the infobox disputes the articles title name. In the mean time I have stuck a dispute tag on the article. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 05:47, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The logo itself shows that there is no such thing as "Wales Labour Party". I have edited the leading paragraph as best as I could doktorb wordsdeeds 09:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Absolutely right. Let's move the page. Pondle (talk) 10:32, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * I had to move it to "Welsh Labour Party" rather than "Welsh Labour"; we'd need admin assistance to move to the latter. Pondle (talk) 10:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't think it is as simple as Welsh Labour being right and Wales Labour being wrong. Older sources including archives of the party's own website refer to it as the "Wales Labour Party", so it is possibly a case of the party being rebranded over a period of time. I have checked the Electoral Commission website but I can't find any entry for Llafur Cymru, Welsh Labour or even Wales Labour - in terms of an official name it looks like "Labour Party" is the only correct answer (so no real help from that angle).
 * Sources for "Wales Labour": BBC 11 February 2000, The Independent 26 January 2004, BBC 19 May 2005,
 * Sources with mixed use of "Wales Labour" and "Welsh Labour": Research paper presented to the Annual Conference of the Political Studies Association, April 2003 (PDF), The Richard commission (report published March 2004), Archive of Welsh Labour website April 2005, Biography of a Labour assembly member, The Daily Post 15 December 2008
 * It seems clear that at least for a period of the party's history it was referred to as "Wales Labour" - this should probably get at least a mention in the article even if the page is named after the currently dominant designation. However, as neither "Welsh Labour" nor "Wales Labour" appear to be officially registered designations, is there any specific point in time when Welsh took over from Wales? It would be nice if we could identify a clear transition date to mention in the article. Road Wizard (talk) 13:40, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Although 'Llafur Cymru' can be literally translated as 'Wales Labour' it means 'Welsh Labour' (cf. Hanes Cymru = lit. 'History [of] Wales' = 'Welsh history'). If they were 'Plaid Lafur Cymru' ('[The] Labour Party of Wales') it would be a different matter. They remain by their own admission a unionist party and 'Welsh Labour' is part and parcel of the UK Labour Party and not a seperate entity as the name "Wales/Welsh Labour Party" would seem to imply. Enaidmawr (talk) 22:26, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I realise I'm coming to this discussion late, but Welsh Labour, as far as I am aware, still uses the title "Wales Labour Party" in certain documentation. It certainly called itself the "Wales Labour Party" during much of the 1990s, until re-branding as "Welsh Labour" (this was one of a series of name changes since the formation of an all-Wales unit of the Labour Party in 1947)

It has never, to my knowledge called itself the "Welsh Labour Party", though has been pointed out above, many others do adopt this title on its behalf. That is why I created the article as "Wales Labour Party", a title that I would still prefer to be applied.Normalmouth (talk) 10:35, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * It's called the "Welsh Labour Party" on its website. Pondle (talk) 11:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * To be precise, Prof. Duncan Tanner refers to it thus on the party's website. I do not believe that the party has ever described itself thus, although I cannot be absolutely certain about that.


 * In any case, my point about use of the title "Wales Labour Party" stands. Normalmouth (talk) 21:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The phrase is used elsewhere on the site, for example "The Welsh Labour Party's Annual Conference". I'd be happy with the phrase "Welsh Labour", as per the logo, but we'd need admin assistance to move the page to that title.Pondle (talk) 12:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The move is simple enough. Just place db-move on the Welsh Labour redirect and it should be deleted in less than 24 hours. An example of the template code that you might use would be . Road Wizard (talk) 13:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok, done. Pondle (talk) 17:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but could someone tell me how the outcome of this discussion is that the page on the Welsh Labour Party can no longer be found by typing "Welsh Labour" into the search bar? Whatever the discussion about the other names "Welsh Labour" is how this entity is known to most people. It is perverse that it is not searchable by that title.Normalmouth (talk) 18:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to move the page to "Welsh Labour", but as Road Wizard says above, first we have to delete the redirect page "Welsh Labour" so that we can move "Welsh Labour Party" to that title. At least, that's what I think the process is! Pondle (talk) 20:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Update - it's all done. Pondle (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Righto. Tks. Sorry for jumping the gun. Normalmouth (talk) 20:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Social Democracy
The Guardian article by accademic Alan Finlayson, I feel, does adequately describe Welsh Labour as being social democratic. There are three paragraphs that referer to social democracy. The first; "Devolution has made possible the development of a distinct policy agenda in Wales; a version of social democracy hidden in plain sight next to the exemplar of Anglo-Saxon neoliberalisation. Where Labour in Britain has felt compelled to emphasise "choice" and "competition", Labour in Wales has sought to stress community, collective participation and even equality." and the second; "The challenges for a new leader will be immense: to defend the emerging Welsh model of social democracy and to develop the kind of economy that can sustain it, while protecting Labour in Wales from the fallout caused by the likely implosion of Labour generally." And thirdly, and more importantly "Viewed from the outside all probably look as if they are on the left of the party, for they express a traditional and moderate form of European social democratic ideology.But what is striking is that each candidate seems aware that they are standing not only for leadership of a subsection of a national political party but for the leadership of a nation. Their arguments sometimes centre on how Labour can win in Wales but often broaden out to address how we envisage the future of Wales " I think those three references in that article, do refer to the Welsh Labour Party, rather than Wales itself. --Welshsocialist (talk) 01:52, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Third Way and Unionism
Sorry to say bit it would be, I believe rather difficult to argue that Welsh Labour is 'third way' with the "Clear Red Water" policy of Rhodri Morgan, and the lack of any third way policy from Welsh Labour. British Unionism, although true, is not really important enough in Wales to warrent a mention.

unsigned comment added by 92.16.124.124 (talk • contribs) 23:22, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Is British Unionism not one of the main ideologies of the scottish or welsh branches of the labour/tory/libdem party? Its on all of the other wikipedia pages apart from welsh labour...

[[22:14 24 January 2011
 * British Unionism is not on other wikipedia pages other than its association with the conservative party that I can see. If you want to add it to this article then you need to find a source which supports the statement.  Whatever you should abide by WP:BRD and not edit war.  -- Snowded  TALK  04:51, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

British unionism is down as an ideology on the following wiki pages: Scot Labour, Scot Cons, Scot Libdem, Welsh Cons and Welsh Libdem... Each of the three main parties have unionism at the height of their agenda, regardless of how high the threat of succession is...

-19:58 26 January 2011-
 * I can't see any reference to support that statement and without a reference it goes.  I've left up the citation request for well over a day and you haven not provided any source so per WIkipedia rules it goes until you find a citation.   I'll review those other articles and take the same action if there are no sources.  Unionism as a ideology is associated with Conservatives.  The fact that the party does not want independence does not make its ideology unionist  -- Snowded  TALK  22:03, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Minor issue
There is a debate on if the Welsh name for the Labour Party should be included in the information box of the main Labour Party article in case anyone is interested. Link here Snowded  TALK 15:08, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 22:05, 26 June 2016 (UTC)