Talk:West African dwarf goat

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: moved. And in answer to your last comment, I would have closed this at the same time as the Australian Pit Game RM if I'd had the time. Jenks24 (talk) 07:55, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

West African Dwarf → West African Dwarf goat – Ridiculously ambiguous. No one but a goat expert would expect the current article to refer to anything but a little person from West Africa. The majority of domestic animal breed names with ambiguous names like this have already long since been moved (or were wisely created at) non-ambiguous names, using natural not parenthetical disambiguation: Nigerian Dwarf goat, British Primitive goat, Finnish Landrace goat, Australian Game fowl, Plymouth Rock chicken, Continental Giant rabbit, Gulf Coast Native sheep, Australian Draught horse, Himalayan cat. Note that the added species common name at the end ("goat") is not capitalized, because it's not part of the formal name of the breed; the species is capitalized only when it is invariably part of the name, as in American Quarter Horse, Norwegian Forest Cat, Bernese Mountain Dog. (I'm going on the assumption that we want to capitalize breed names at all, as we're mostly presently doing. If some object to this, I would suggest that this RM is not the place for that discussion, so please don't cloud the RM by injecting arguments relating to that other topic.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  10:48, 13 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Support per nom. bd2412  T 14:11, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment So is a Pekingese a person from Peking? I don't oppose this move, but not because of the nominator's rationale, rather because of the existence of another topic, West African Dwarf (sheep). Timmyshin (talk) 02:13, 20 August 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) "Pekingese" can, of course, refer to anything from Peking, though not as frequently in current English usage, because we tend to say Beijing instead of Peking now. However, older sources do in fact call people and things from Peking "Pekingese"; that's how the dog breed ever got its name to begin with.  A Japanese and a Korean are almost always taken to be people unless a specific context dictates otherwise; there's no difference at all other than lack of familiarity of "Pekingese" to some younger readers as an adjectival geonym.  Context can certainly make Pekingese refer to a person. Did you hear the one about the Glaswegian, the Pekingese, and the Berliner who walked into a bar?  They all said "Ow!", but in different languages >;-).  All such breed names should be disambiguated, and naturally. 2) The sheep article needs to move, too, per WP:AT (we use natural disambiguation, not parenthetical, whenever possible).  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per nom. Appropriate natural disambiguation.  Definitely ambiguous, even without noting the West African Dwarf (sheep).  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Support per nom, and the sheep makes it a no-brainer. —PC-XT+ 23:13, 23 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: The Australian Pit Game -> Australian Pit Game fowl RM just concluded in favor of the move, under the exact same (almost copy-pasted) rationale (and without any Australian Pit Game sheep or whatever to conflict with, either). Both RMs were filed about the same time, so I'm not sure why this one is still open.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼  06:24, 24 August 2014 (UTC)
 * ''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move.   Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page move
Hello,

Djallonké is a BREED and NOT the name of a group. It's the official name given by the United Nations backed ILRI DAGRIS CGIAR for Livestock Research. All West African Dwarf goats belong to the BREED Djallonké!!! All other names (West African Dwarf, African Pygmy, African Dwarf, Chevre de Fouta Djallon, Guinean, Guinean Dwarf, Chevre guineene; Cameroon Dwarf, Ghana Dwarf, Ghana Forest, Forest Dwarf, Nigerian Dwarf, Grassland Dwarf, Congo Dwarf; Chevre Naine, Chevre de Casamanc) are aliases for the BREED NAME Djallonké and NOT for a group. There is ONLY 1 BREED, not a group including several breeds.---> current 2019-2020 status ---> http://nga.dagris.info/species/87/breeds<
 * 1

The current references used on the page; R.T.Wilson (1991) and S.N (1979) are OUTDATED and are not updated to the current breeds status review done by ILRI (UNITED NATIONS livestock research organisation)
 * 2

Even the reference of Valerie Porter et Al (2016) is not updated NEITHER, because even the references used in that written 2016 edition book are from 1975-2005 era.
 * 3

Both breeds Djallonké sheep and Djallonké goat (Wrong naming/classification on wikipage --> West African Dwarf goats) have both been reviewed in the same year 2019 and officially distinguished as being a DJALLONKÉ BREED and NOT as WEST AFRICAN DWARF GROUP. (sheep link,  http://dagris.ilri.cgiar.org/species/86/breeds?name=&title=&field_synonyms_value=&order=name&sort=desc)
 * 4

so guys please make correct page,

Jean Kiala President - African Ornamental Breeders Association (AOBA) Board member - Djallonké goat, Djallonké sheep and Djallonké cattle specialist group. www.ornamental-breeders.org Info@ornamental-breeders.org'''

KAMK1
 * , what we do in Wikipedia is to follow the published independent reliable sources. As far as I can see, "West African Dwarf" is the name predominantly used for these goats in such sources (whereas for the similarly-named sheep breed, "Djallonké" seems to be more usual). If you think the page should be moved you are welcome to start a move discussion, here on this page, the talk-page of the article; if you don't know how to do that I will do it for you if you like – you'd have to tell me what title you propose, of course. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 10:47, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Justlettersandnumbers yes please start the move discussion with proposed page name Djallonké goat (West African Dwarf goat) or Djallonké goat ill motivate the request in the section. thanks KAMK1
 * x2., I'll do that if you wish, but I should warn you that that name does not conform to our article title policy, and I think it unlikely in the extreme that anyone would support a move to it. Let me know if you want me to go ahead anyway. Otherwise, please choose a concise and accurate title that is commonly used in independent reliable sources – you'll need to be able to show in discussion that the title you choose is more commonly used than the current title of the page. Djallonké would be a good title, except that it is more commonly used for the sheep breed. Do you want me to start a discussion for Djallonké goat? Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 13:55, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

(talk) Djallonké goat is ok. KAMK1

Content fork
Hello Justlettersandnumbers im working on a content fork of this article. like i did with the Djallonké sheep ill add merger code to page. will drop the page soon. so no move discussion page for this page needed KAMK1
 * Er, no,, don't do that – if you create a content fork it will immediately either be redirected to this page or be deleted under speedy deletion criterion WP:A10. The only reason I didn't do one of those things to the sheep page is that it took me several days to see what you had done. I will start a move discussion here if you ask me to, but will take no action unless you do so. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:01, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

hello,Justlettersandnumbers  ok than make the move discussion page. ill prove you my point on the Djallonké goat ;) KAMK1

Requested move 18 June 2020

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. 

The result of the move request was: There is a consensus not to move the page. The only argument presented in favour of moving was from the nominator; as noted in the discussion this was light in policy-based argument. The arguments against the move, however, were firmly based in policy. It should also be noted that, since the nomination carried little weight of argument, the four "support" !votes—while numerically superior—were all per nom, failed to make a case at all, and can be considered no more persuasive than the nomination itself. —— Serial # 10:25, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

West African Dwarf goats → Djallonké goat – Making this request on behalf of ; please see higher up this talk-page for background. I'll leave it to him to make the case for moving the page. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 15:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

................................................ ................................................

Hello everyone,

I want the name West African Dwarf goat removed to Djallonké goat. Because this article is wrong.

In the article it claims that Djallonké is the synonym name of a group of west African goats and that within this group there are several breeds.

(There are many regional strains or breeds within the group; other names for the group as a whole include African Dwarf, Djallonké or Fouta Jallon, Grassland Dwarf or Chèvre Naine des Savanes, Guinean or Guinean Dwarf, Forest Goat and Pygmy.)

Just this part alone plus the title making this article wrong.

By the ILRI a member of the  CGIAR consortium backed by the United Nations it is clearly mentioned as Djallonké being the main name of the breed and not a group. All synonyms of the breed name and not of a group are also all mentioned. And this is the highest level livestock research organisation in the world.

Not only on the UN backed website but all over West and Central Africa the dwarf goat is known to be the breed Djallonké and not group Djallonké. The regional strains part mentioned above is correct. But this includes only color type strains not different morphologyphenotypes. For ex. KIRDI stands for selected in fully black color, while KOSI is red and skewbald.

below I've listed countries with each a reference naming Djallonké as a breed and not group. south Benin Togo and Ivory coast Nigeria and Ghana Benin Benin, Burkina Faso, Ivory coast, Ghana, Guinea,  Guinea Bissau,  Mali, Togo Burkina Faso Gambia Sudan . and this link is even the most funny one. At page 416-417 they state clearly that Djallonké is the name of breed for all West African Dwarf goats. this book was placed as the 2th reference on the West African Dwarf goats page. But without mentioning the exact page location. I think the person who posted it did clearly not read the page of the book.

Now let me tell you it's short history and why you guys are confusing it today.

Both the Djallonké sheep and the Djallonké goat (West African Dwarf goats) where developed-selected by the  Yalunka people one of the original inhabitants of the Futa Jallon (French: Fouta Djallon) (Jallon Mountains), a mountainous region in Guinea, West Africa. Hence it's names Djallonké, or Fouta Djallon. The  Fula people conquered this mountainous land from the Yalunka in their Fula jihads. The Fula or Fulani or Peul are a nomadic ethnic group spread from Senegal all the way to the north of the Democratic Republic of the Congo. They are responsible for spreading these dwarf livestock breeds. A third breed is the N'Dama a dwarf cattle breed.

During colonial time. The white colonist tried to crack down on tribalism and separatism. And nationalised the names of many livestock breeds. That's how Djallonké or Fouta Djallon became Chevre nain de Guinea(in French) or (in English Guinean dwarf). Other countries also tried to nationalise breed names and so it became Ghana dwarf, Nigerian dwarf (don't get confused with the American breed of Nigerian dwarf),... but people still continue to call them Djallonké today (see all references)

For example in my country Democratic Republic of the Congo during Mobutu reign the government changed the names first in Chevre nain du Congo and later in Chevre nain du Zaire (Congo dwarf). But because we the people still continued to call the breed from South west of DRC Chevre BaFulani ya Djallon (or translated from lingala to English...Dwarf goats brought by the Fulani from the Jallon mountains) and the one from north east and east DRC (Bahu, South Sudanian East African type). the congolese government reversed the name back to chevre Djallonké and Bahu East African to avoid intermixing and confusing of the two.

The name West African Dwarf sheep WADS and West African Dwarf goats WAD or WADG  are almost only used by western scientist or in scientific articles. But that colonial naming now starts to stop in the academic world as well. Now many are still confused by sheep and goat since they have exact same name and that's why in some articles it is still referred as West African Dwarf goat

If the UN with its bodies FAO and ILRI has already reviewed the naming... time has come to do so on Wikipedia. #BlackL... #IndiginousNamesMatter

I can give you more references...but I'll keep that for the page corrections itself

To come to a consensus, I suggest we write in the introduction of the goat article something similar like the sheep article.

(The Djallonké sheep , also known by the misnomers  West African Dwarf Sheep (WADS) (North American name) and  Cameroon sheep or Cameroon Dwarf Sheep (European name), ...)

But than...

(The Djallonké goat, also known by the misnomers West African Dwarf Goat (WAD or WADG) (name used in scientific papers)...)

Or else

(Djallonké (West African Dwarf sheep) And Djallonké (West African Dwarf goat))

Djallonké goat --->, Djallonké sheep --->

I sincerely hope a new correct page comes for this breed as well that the pages Cameroon sheep and West African Dwarf sheep gets merged into Djallonké sheep as well.

Btw. Cameroon sheep is not recognised as a separate breed in Europe neither. But European Union livestock organisations accepts the ILRI naming Djallonké sheep.

This may sounds as a conflict of interest if I write the article. But I'm managing both the European and American Djallonké Sheep studbook as well the African one. And also the African Djallonké Goat Studbook. My organisation is a pure charitable trust and recognised by both European Union as African Union. The studbooks do NOT recognised Cameroon sheep or West African Dwarf sheep as a separate breed nor West African Dwarf goats and sheep as a group.

The only interest I have is to see our African breeds listed properly.

Thanks

KAMK1 18 June 2020 18:50 (UTC) ................................................ ................................................


 * Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:07, 19 June 2020 (UTC)


 * Support per nom.--KAMK1 (talk) 23:13, 20 June 2020 (UTC)  KAMK1
 * Oppose. That's a very long rationale for making this move,, and appears to contain some inaccuracies – the Congo Dwarf, for example, reportedly does not belong to this group (see the last sentence of the Characteristics section).


 * Wherever compatible with Wikipedia policy, I favour an endonym over an exonym, an emic over an etic approach, particularly in relation to countries and cultures far removed from my own. In this case, I don't believe that is possible: for better or for worse, the English-language WP:COMMONNAME for this breed group is overwhelmingly "West African Dwarf". On Scholar, "West African Dwarf goat" gets an estimated 2150 results, of which the first 980 are actually verifiable; "Djallonké goat" gives 31 results. On ScienceDirect, a search for "West African Dwarf goat" gives about 370 results; "Djallonké goat" gives eight.


 * For what little it is worth, in Gbooks, "Djallonké goat" gets 53 "hits", of which the first eight verifiably mention the thing. "West African Dwarf goat" gets about 270 "hits"; about twenty on the first page actually show a mention of it.


 * In the "goat" list of the DAD-IS database of the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, where data for each country is submitted by the responsible branch of national government, twelve countries (Benin, Democratic Republic of Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Equatorial Guinea, Gabon, Gambia, Ghana, Guinea, Liberia, Mali, Nigeria and Sierra Leone) report a "West African Dwarf" (also, Cameroon reports it as "Nain de l'Ouest africain"); four (Burkina Faso, Central African Republic, Senegal and Togo) report a "Djallonké"; and three (Benin, Congo (Brazza) and Guinea-Bissau) report, under slightly different French names, a Guinean Dwarf. (to verify, go to http://www.fao.org/dad-is/browse-by-country-and-species/en/; do not select a country, but select the species "goat"; use text search in the page to find the various terms.) Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:51, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Hello Justlettersandnumbers there is a difference between the national naming and the naming amongst the population. National governments took over (copied) names from the colonists whil rural farmers owners did not. than we should opt for Djallonké (West African Dwarf goat) and Djallonké (West African Dwarf Sheep). because there are more rural people vs Academics or scientists lmao. these number you gave dont add up at all. if all the rural people would get access to www and write academic articles they would outnumber it lol by 100vs100M btw. FAO whichyou said says West African Dwarf in academic field but in there same backed ILRI website they say Djallonké. so it seems they also trying to please both sides. lol. to come back to the Congo dwarf goat check both congo dwarf and Djallonké goat on website ---> just look to the two. they confirm my story i posted above about the Mobutu period.. WE DO HAVE goats belonging to the West African Dwarf goats group in the west of our country. but i stated clearly we also have in the East of our country the Bahu of east African dwarf group of goats. and Mobutu mixed the two as one. but after it was reverted. read my text again. btw DAGRIS CGIAR ILRI is also FAO backed. KAMK1

To KAMK1 and Justlettersandnumbers. I was reading both websites the main page of FAO as well the FAO backed DAGRIS-CGIAR-ILRI one. And it looks indeed that the FAO its stance for using(backing) both namings is causing this confusion. ILRI was created for and partly by the rural people in partnership with big players like UN. The fact is rural people don't use the name West African Dwarf for neither both goat and sheep breeds. It is indeed only governmentally and academically used. Im French speaking Cameroonian and even overhere we don't use the namings Cameroon sheep, West African Dwarf goat, West African Dwarf Sheep... We use Mouton et Chevre Djallon or Djallonké in the French speaking part of Cameroon, 'Djallonké sheep' and 'goat' in the English speaking part of my country. And Djallon in our native languages. At the capital city in the government and at Uni they use West African Dwarf. I agree we should opt for Djallonké (West African Dwarf goat) and Djallonké (West African Dwarf Sheep). This move should be done it's a no brainer. Check each country site of DAGRIS-ILRI all national governments call it Djallonké sheep and Djallonké goat. Check Cameroon both sheep and goat +, in Ivory coast goat , in DRCongo goat (you must definitely check these two) , in Nigeria both goat and sheep , in Senegal both goat and sheep  From Senegal (outermost of West Africa) to Nigeria (in the central of West Africa) all the way to the western part of DRCongo (the heart of Centra Africa) ...it's called Djallonké sheep and goat.
 * Support per nom.--JM43000 00:16, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

It is indeed sad to see how naming in Africa is still determined by the West. Colonial fieldwork is still indiscriminately adopted in academic literature without even considering the proper indigenous designation. and unfortunately this does not only apply to Livestock.
 * Support per nom.--JKWikiAfro 08:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Strong oppose I did close this in favor of moving, however my personal opinion is that Justletters' common name argument is much more compelling than the very long winded nomination, which is very light on policy-based arguments. Instead it seems to rely WP:Right great wrongs arguments, which is discouraged. Perhaps in the future the term "Djallonké goat" will be picked up by English language sources, but until that happens the article shouldn't be moved. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  09:49, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Move
Hello  buidhe  I noticed you redirected the name 'Djallonké goat' to this page. that was not my request. My request was to merge and rewrite under the name Djallonké and not to redirect. I now made a fork like i did for Djallonké sheep. named 'Djallonké goats' since i couldnt use 'Djallonké goat'. So please undo the redirection and change the name Djallonké goats to Djallonké goat. Ill continue writing on both Djallonké pages.

KAMK1

 buidhe  there is a hugh difference between a group of breeds and an official recognized breed name. Since we clearly can't find a consensus on this matter while KAMK1 had given more than enough refferences about his claim from both the countries itself aswel an UN backed website and a breeders association. I suggest we continue working on both the forks Djallonké sheep & Djallonké goats and we also leave West African Dwarf sheep and West African Dwarf goat There should even be no doubt about this suggestion. It would be unacceptable if Wikipedia would hijack a decision like this by not accepting to write correct information but leaving the wrong information online just because some English speaking academics continue classifying like this. We are all responsible, and its our dutie on Wikipedia to write correct information. JM43000