Talk:West Berlin

Untitled
Subjects to add: how many inhabitants were living there? Was Westberlin member of EEC (in a sense, that EEC laws applied at Westberlin teritory and people enjoyed pillar freedoms of EEC).

Maybe we should put a map on this page Frogprincess1312 22:11, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Agreed - and for East Berlin as well. However someone would need to make or find a public domain one. Secretlondon 22:30, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * What sort of stuff do you want on the map? ;) Morwen 22:47, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * :) I think we'd like the border obviously, districts? border crossing points? Secretlondon 22:51, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)


 * I could do one of the boroughs with the wall highlighted trivially. Border crossing points would be more tricky.  Morwen 22:52, Jan 25, 2004 (UTC)

Traffic Section
While interesting and incredibly informative, it seems to overwhelm the rest of the article (It seems to be more about transit than West Berlin - I would have liked to know more about the daily life/economy personally). Perhaps a summary w/ link to an expanded article is more appropriate, as it is currently almost all of the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.197.82.153 (talk) 17:34, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree. Maybe there should be a seperate article on West Berlin transit arrangements ? 86.166.74.226 (talk) 00:13, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Legal status
You dont need to be a member of the Bundestag to become Chancellor of (West-)Germany, the sentence may be a bit misleading. Maybe someone with more insight to the situation could change this?


 * Perhaps so, but Brandt was a member of the Bundestag. --Jfruh (talk) 12:49, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

1990 disestablished?
Why and how is this article put into Category:1990 disestablishments? West Berlin basically still exists, only the Cold war limitations have vanished, and the area of East Berlin was added. -- Matthead discuß!    O       02:02, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * West Berlin doesn't still exist as a political entity. The West Berlin that existed before 1990 was not a German Land, for one thing; it was territory occupied by the Western Allies and had a special legal status and its own postal system.  The current Land of Berlin is an entirely separate legal animal.   --Jfruh (talk) 02:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Agreee West Berlin ceased to exist. It was an informal name for the territory of the 3 sectors under control of the Western Allies during the division of the city, which does not exist now. Disagree somewhat with Jfruh's reasoning; West Berlin was a Land, there was debate if it was part of the Federal Republic or not. There's continuity from the West Berlin German administration and legislation to the united Berlin. The difference is that the Allied occupation ended and that the administration now encorporates all of Berlin. Anorak2 03:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * If you read the article, it's really not up for debate: West Berlin was not part of the Federal Republic. The Basic Law did not apply in W. Berlin, W. Berliners were not represented by voting members in the Bundestag or Bundesrat, the Federal Republic's postal system did not function in W. Berlin, men in W. Berlin were not subject to military service, W. Berliners' ID cards did not carry the Federal Republic's coat of arms, the Western Allies could override the decisions of the W. Berlin government, Lufthansa was not permited to fly into W. Berlin, etc., etc., etc.  --Jfruh (talk) 07:17, 18 September 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree in principle, but it's not as clearcut as you present it.I think a more proper wording is that West Berlin's status was ambivalent and a matter of debate, especially between the two sides of the cold war. Some of your claims are a bit exaggerated. The Basic Law did not apply in W. Berlin: In practice West Berlin was treated as a part of the Federal Republic in most legal respects. the Federal Republic's postal system did not function in W. Berlin: In practice West Germany's and West Berlin's postal systems were fully integrated, the separation was merely nominal. W. Berliners' ID cards did not carry the Federal Republic's coat of arms: Then again passports did, and all sorts of of Federal administrative institutions functioned in West Berlin and used the BRD's coat of arms for official purposes. Lufthansa was not permited to fly into W. Berlin This was due to the air corridors agreement with the Soviet Union and not so much because of restricted sovereignty. Anorak2 19:56, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Today's Berlin as Continuation of West Berlin?
Ann and John Tusa's Berlin Airlift recorded that West Berlin came into being by default because during the blockade, the Soviet Union installed their own city administration in November 1948 with Friedrich Ebert junior as the mayor and overrode the all-city administration before and prevented that government to exercise power in the Soviet sectors. Then that administration became a rump government and thus West Berlin is formed. (Ernst Reuter was elected mayor of all Berlin before the blockade started, but the Soviet Union did not recognize him when the four power structures were still functioning. He took his seat after the blockade and the Soviet Union installed Ebert and thus Reuter became the first mayor of West Berlin.)

If I'm correct, the government of reunified Berlin post-reunification is not officially a new entity born in 1990 out of merging two different city governments, but rather, a continuation of West Berlin as it recognizes more of West Berlin administrative history while East Berlin's administration traditions are treated as afterthoughts (eg Berlin constitution follows West Berlin's with modifications, and mayors are listed with continuation from West Berlin days with those of East Berlin recognized as "parallel governance"). So is it in a sense administratively today's Berlin is more a continuation of Cold War-era West Berlin administrative wise? --JNZ (talk) 07:34, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * yes Anorak2 (talk) 08:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * NO —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.164.212.154 (talk) 15:43, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
 * PERHAPS24.211.30.90 (talk) 01:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Reunified Berlin continued to use West Berlin's original constitution for five more years until 1995, when a new constitution was approved in a referendum. The continuity between West Berlin's 1950 and reunified Berlin's 1995 constitution is very apparent though. For instance, take the names and titles of government institutions... West Berlin/post-1990 Berlin: head of government - Governing Mayor, executive - Senate, legislative - Abgeordnetenhaus. East Berlin/pre-1948 Berlin: head of government - Lord Mayor, executive - Magistrate, legislative - Stadtverordnetenversammlung. East Berlin's government saw itself as a successor to the pre-division city government, while West Berlin chose to give itself an entirely new constitution in 1950. On the other hand, the reunified Berlin's government from 1990 onwards is largely considered a legal continuation of West Berlin's government (just like reunified Germany uses the "West German" Basic Law of 1949 until today). And guess what, Berlin continues to use West Berlin's flag, instead of East Berlin's flag.

Exclaves
This may be beyond the scope of an article of this length, but I recall, decades ago, reading a newspaper article about the difficulties of life in the tiny exclaves of West Berlin lying to the southwest and northwest (see map). They existed because the boundaries of postwar Berlin precisely followed those of prewar Berlin. Those boundaries were drawn without the slightest idea that they would ever be fortified! Dynzmoar (talk) 02:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Only one of those exclaves was inhabited, the others were farmland or unused. See Steinstücken for the fate of the only inhabited exclave. Anorak2 (talk) 14:28, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Sectors
The article could be improved with some mention of how and why the British, French, and US sectors came to be where they were. Have we any appropriate sources for this? – Kieran T  (' talk ') 12:55, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The sectors were defined according to Berlin's pre-war boroughs, at first with three powers (UK, US and USSR) in mind, each tailored to contain about 1/3rd of the population of Berlin. The Soviet Union was given the city centre because they were the ones who conquered Berlin. France joined late in the occupation agreements as it was under occupation itself during WW2. They got a share of what was previously agreed to be the part of the UK sector. Anorak2 (talk) 14:32, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Population
Does anyone have information about the population in West Berlin during the 1949-1990 period ? --Iv (talk) 19:47, 5 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It has always been hovering around 2 million, with a rise in the 1950s and 60s up to approx. 2.2 million, a decline in the 1970s and first half of the 80s down to 1.9 million, and another rise in the second half of the 80s up to approx 2.1 million. Anorak2 (talk) 14:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Air traffic
There is no citation in this section to verify the statement that British European Airways (BEA) inaugurated the first regular air service for civilians between West Berlin and Hamburg on 4 July 1948. It also doesn't tally with the info in the "Postwar commercial use" section of the "Berlin Tempelhof Airport" article, which seems to be properly referenced with relevant citations. According to the latter, it was American Overseas Airlines (AOA) rather than BEA that operated West Berlin's first post-WWII commercial air service on 18 May 1946. Furthermore, the statement that the West German Lufthansa and most other airlines were denied access to West Berlin misses the point. It was only those airlines headquartered in the US, the UK and France that could access West Berlin through the Allied air corridors. Everyone else was banned. Whoever has written this, please be more precise. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.98.11 (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Culture?
The article is rather dry, having information on the infrastructure and history but nothing on the culture and economy. What was it like for the two million residents of West Berlin? How vibrant was their culture? What were its chief imports and exports? --Golbez (talk) 19:12, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Water Supply
I once heard that West Berlin's water supply came entirely from East Germany and that the East kept pumping it during the blockade for payment in hard currency. If true, this is worth mentioning. Dynzmoar (talk) 00:21, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

1949 vs. 1948
Although the Greater Berlin government was restricted to the western sectors in 1948, the U.S/British/French sectors only really became "West Berlin" with the end of the Berlin Blockade and its' decisive division of Berlin into a communist East and a capitalist West. Paul Austin (talk) 12:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Would a Soviet-era German map showing where Berlin was be helpful?
Does anyone else think it would be helpful to have a map or other graphic of East and West Germany showing in scale just how FAR Berlin was inside East Germany? And if so, does anyone have a copyright-free document to include here? IMO it could help clarify the situation for a lot of readers who aren't from around there and have no clear understanding of the geography of it. Paavo273 (talk) 06:45, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd say link the map here from Wikimedia Commons and we can see if it's useful or not.
 * Sincerely, --86.81.201.94 (talk) 21:09, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Articles in Wikipedia need to be sourced
Hi User:Paul Benjamin Austin, Deleting cite tags I placed directly contradicts the most fundamental cornerstone WP policies No original research, Verifiability, Citing sources, etc.

As it stands, this article, almost totally lacking sources, appears 2B almost completely OR but in actual fact is almost certainly PLAGIARIZED from easily found and easily cited sources. The reason for inline need-citation tags is to point an editor who wants to fix the text by adding sources precisely where the source cites are needed. (Please see additional remarks I placed at your talk page.) Regards, Paavo273 (talk) 22:30, 28 December 2015 (UTC)
 * No discussion in the past five years. I'm going to remove the Original Research tag. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 06:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

remove issue flag for overview?
I sat down to do some work to fix the maintenance tag issues for the article, but I don't really think that the overview section as it currently exists needs any expansion, and I don't see anything on the talk page where people clarify what else should be covered in the overview. Does anyone want to suggest what issues still remain with the overview, or can I go ahead and remove that portion of the maintenance tag? SomewhatSpurious (talk) 18:43, 19 July 2017 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304075359/https://www.bundestag.de/blob/284870/ce0d03414872b427e57fccb703634dcd/basic_law-data.pdf to https://www.bundestag.de/blob/284870/ce0d03414872b427e57fccb703634dcd/basic_law-data.pdf
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160304053959/http://www.berlin.de/imperia/md/content/mauer/a_6251_19_1988.pdf?start&ts=1242213630&file=a_6251_19_1988.pdf to http://www.berlin.de/imperia/md/content/mauer/a_6251_19_1988.pdf?start&ts=1242213630&file=a_6251_19_1988.pdf

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