Talk:West Hartlepool War Memorial/Archives/2012/June

'Relevance' or 'connection' of First World War memorials to the architectural form, as from the 19th Cent., of Buckingham Palace in London
A comment has today (28 October 2011) been added on a separate Talk Page by myself on this particular 'relevance' or 'connection' (together with that 'relevance' or 'connection' which likewise can arguably be said to exist in relation to other numerous and significant architectural and historical factors at a European level), this being the Talk Page which relates to an article on a remarkable piece of London architecture (which is likewise referred to within this article on the 'West Hartlepool War Memorial' under its name) 'Buckingham Palace'.

The fundamental background to these matters may be said to be something which seems to have been for many years (since the First World War) unrecognized, namely what was the true motivation (as recognized at the time of the raid, if never subsequently so recognized officially within the UK) of the German East Coast Raid on the 'Hartlepools' in 1914, on the basis of the assumption that the German Empire was at that time fully aware of these historical and architectural connections, and in particular their relationship with the Victoria Memorial in London immediately in front of and connected with the Palace amd "dedicated in 1911 by George V and his first cousin, Wilhelm II of Germany, the two senior grandsons of Victoria", when this was considered together at the conclusion of the First World War with what was quite clearly the completely unprecedented situation in Europe, east and west, as I suggest it must be presumed without perhaps much apparent documentary evidence other than that which is indirect but nonetheless significant, was indeed the case at the time in east and west.

The relevance, if any, of these matters to our present point of time is what remains of course to be demonstrated! May I now with some sort of regret suggest that it involves a very large number of possibly relevant considerations, including in particular the 2008 Council of Europe initiative so far as European war memorials are concerned, see the Council of Europe website on memorials ) and I therefore repeat that although this particular article may be in part at least something completely personal to myself, as has been remarked or suggested by at least one other person who has recently removed a large part of the text, it remains for this reason something which is complicated and is potentially at least in my own view a long-going national and international issue (there has been another person who has suggested that everything is indeed well enough demonstrated in this article).

We must haunted as we are by our dead and those of other countries in world wars take it or leave it, ladies and gentlemen, my friends or my enemies; what we cannot do, I suggest again, is deny that it exists and that it relates to the most extraordinary events in the history of our humanity on this earth. Let, therefore, the relevant departments of our government and our elected representatives in the UK now, or as soon as possible, if they consider this matter at all, either respond in one way or another or suppress for whatever reason those details which may from one point of view be considered very likely to be the truth of this matter in accordance with international treaty obligations including the 1985 Granada Convention and which may furthermore in certain respects be considered to be directly relevant to the form of the Olympic Games in London next year and the history of those Games in modern times, unlikely though this may seem, cf. the British Listed Buildings website showing the Hartlepool War '1914' Memorial historically properly entitled not the 'Nike', 'Victoria' or 'Winged Victory' as in Nike (mythology), its official titles at the present time and on the official list of English Heritage according to this website, but 'Triumphant Youth', as named in the extremely relevant in many respects official Programme of Dedication and Unveiling published in 1921 and included in part in both the local press and the Council minutes as well as being in certain even more significant forms reflected in local postcards, even if it happens to be, like the Victoria Memorial in London, evidently in its design related to that particular form of firstly classical Greek and later European sculpture which has over many centuries a very long and perhaps complicated history which continues now in the form of the renovated and (as from the late 19th Cent.) now in theory at least international "Olympus" Games, which "Games" themselves have a rather complicated and long-running relationship with that history and architecture that has been mentioned and which therefore also may be held to relate to, amongst other things, First World War memorials including in particular the  "Inter-Allied Victory Medal" and the memorials in the 'Hartlepools', with the 1914 'Triumphant Youth' on the coast and further inland, next to 'Victoria Road' in the Victorian new town West Hartlepool, the 1914-1919 obelisk with the inscription 'Thine O Lord is the Victory' as also found on the frieze of the Royal Albert Hall, the essence of this matter being arguably in one sense the fact that 'Victoria' is the classic Latin word for both 'Nike' which means 'victory' in classical Greek and for 'victory' in general in Latin and clearly therefore relating to the Scottish National War Memorial if its designs are taken into account in particular in the Shrine and on the line out to the south from the Shrine (these being the elements within what previously had been a military barrack block as added in the 1920s by the architect of this memorial); but the unnamed figure 'Triumphant Youth' is, in its form, evidently dead, and represents the first soldier to die, in 1914, on British soil as a result of enemy action for hundreds of years, nor should it be assumed that there are no specific connections with the Imperial War Graves Commission as it was called at the time, this being however indeed a separate issue at a national and international level with particular connections with France (the ultimate problem or matter of consideration being as previously considered over many centuries, throughout the world, with particular reference in principle to what is known as 'religion', that of war and peace as famously dealt with by Leo Tolstoy in Russia in the 19th Cent. with reference in particular to revolutionary France).

One of the many remarkable features of the West Hartlepool War Memorial and its most evident one is of course simply the height of the obelisk (historically an architectural form the main physical character of which is height) at 66 feet/20.3m, as emphasized in a contemporary postcard relating to its 1923 unveiling (and of course on the coast the 'Triumphant Youth' goes the same way, as perhaps both distinct from and related to the 'Winged Victory' medal issued at the time of the East Coast Raid in 1914 by the German nation in respect of many different actions and relating to the Berlin Victory Column which itself had such a long and remarkable history together with the motto held by all soldiers of the German united army and on the nation's flag at the time, 'Gott Mit Uns 1870', that is, relating to the 1870 war with France, in which war the United Kingdom did not participate).

In conclusion, and so far as Buckingham Palace in London is concerned, the ideal course of action would presumably be the creation of a publicly available collection of relevant documentary evidence as detailed on http://www.chicagohs.org/research/resources/architecture (in the USA, Chicago)) and this in turn could be related to other architecture including the First World War memorials in the historic 'Hartlepools' and the history of architecture in the north-east of the UK in general, with reference in particular to the now demolished 'Victoria Square' in Middlesbrough, in effect begun at the same time as the extension of the Victorian new town to the south of the railway line, and the Ordnance Survey 'Battle of the Scales'.

Could a request by members of the public for this sort of action (evidently of significance not so much for myself as for the United Kingdom monarchy and its recorded relatively recent history together with European history in general with particular reference to the World's fair in the 19th Cent.) possibly be made, and if so by whom?

I do not know the answer, I can only put the question in the hope that its possible significance may be admitted by those with the power to consider some course of action in accordance (they can always have more information from myself if they wish either on this particular Wikipedia Talk Page and at this section or within Talk:Buckingham Palace where I hope that a copy of some of the paragraphs in this section can be referred to, it being perhaps more immediately relevant as an article).

What is the answer? Thank you Wikipedia for allowing this significant issue to be raised at all, nobody else seems to want to know about it so far (November 2011).

Peter Judge 28 October 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.138.227 (talk) 13:42, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

PS Please (ladies and gents still reading my apparently questionable text!) do not after all understand that this last sentence "What is the answer?" should after all be supposed to mean some apparent complete public indifference. It seems that it had already (unfortunately I was not myself aware of this at the time!) been the case that there was a recent 2011 ceremony in 'Victory Square' in Hartlepool in connection with Easter (Good Friday) and involving the Latin cross as held by them during the ceremonial procedure and relating to that on the memorial, in connection with the words 'Thine O Lord is the Victory' which I believe is historically clearly related to the frieze on the 19th Cent. Royal Albert Hall also of course still, on a Saturday, associated with war memorials in relation to what is now in the form of a 'Remembrance Sunday'. This has according to the local newspaper now been repeated in 2012 but I have not however I am afraid been able so far to be in contact with theae particular persons in question and, this being something quite clearly completely unprecedented in all sorts of ways in relation to two, not one, world wars I have no idea of what may be the final answer (to whom or to what we are supposed now to be faithful I am not sure, ladies and gentlemen, but in any event all these soldiers in two wars died and in a completely unprecedented fashion were buried by their British government in the form of the military throughout the British Empire together with memorials within the UK, and not everybody in this country was it seems at the time wishing to be involved having it seems been given the option of the names of relatives not being necessarily included in any particular locally created memorial list). As for the relevance of these particular 'Hartlepools' memorials to Easter this is I believe something also clearly implied in the originally entitled 1914 'Hartlepool War Memorial', now sometimes known as the 'war memorial in Redheugh Gardens', it being the case that here evidently a soldier, if without uniform, is holding a Latin cross and with this together with numerous other relevant elements on the Headland having been all at one and the same time unveiled and dedicated seven years and one day after the remarkable German East Coast Raid on 16 December 1914 directly following their own failure in 1914 (and in particular thanks to the Russian as well as to the Western forces) to access, in France, either the capital Paris as in 1870 or the later attempted coast. Peter Judge, June 2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.30.145.137 (talk) 22:10, 10 June 2012 (UTC)