Talk:Western Desert campaign/Archive 1

Renaming
To avoid confusion, I'm thinking that this should be renamed the Western Desert Campaign. Any objections? Oberiko 15:44, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Naming conventions (military units)
Forgive the spam, but I'm trying to round up wikipedians with an interest in international military history to help work out some conventions for the names of military units. If you are interested in that sort of thing, please visit Naming conventions (military units) and join the discussions on the talk page. &mdash; B.Bryant 17:48, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Major rewrite
I'm trying to massively rewrite this whole page, as it's very thin on detail, has a number of factual errors and is generally in need of a lot of work. I think the basic structure is sound, but the sections need beefing up.

Lots of edits coming. --Po8crg 14:52, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Great, if you need any help, don't hesitate to ask. Oberiko 17:00, 11 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Done for the moment - I might have another look at the Gazala-El Alamein period later. I think the maps may need moving about a bit to align with the new sections I've put in, but I find that sort of thing incredibly fiddly. Po8crg 17:20, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

NPOV
Too much of this is written from the British perspective. It needs some work to get it NPOV, but I'm not really good at editing my own writing. At least we now cover all the major events of the campaign! Po8crg 20:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

DETAILS ABOUT THE  BRITISH  COUNTER-OFFENSIVE  (1940-41)
In Sidi-El-Barrani (Nibeiwa)(on December 9, 1940) about 1,300 Italians were killed in action, among them their commander: general Pietro Maletti(today accused by historians for the massacre of 2,200 civilians in Ethiopia in 1937). In Beda Fomm (on February 7, 1941) was killed in action the commander of the 10th Italian Army (general Giuseppe Tellera) after 9 counter-attacks of his troops. The Italian garrison of Jarabub (Colonel Carlo Castagna), full surrounded, lasted hard resistance until March 21, 1941.

Who was Wavell?
He's mentioned in the article and I assume he was in command of the allied forces for a time, but it's never explicitly said, nor is his full name included anywhere. Can this be fixed? --Lendorien 19:55, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Article structure

 * Overview
 * Background
 * Importance of the Western Desert
 * Military campaign
 * Early clashes
 * Initial hostilities and Italian offensive
 * British counter-attack (Compass)
 * Operation Sonnenblume (Spring 1941) - The German intervention in North Africa involving the sending of the DAK
 * Rommel's first offensive
 * Siege of Tobruk
 * Operation Brevity
 * Operation Skorpion (27 May, 1941) - The recapture of the Halfaya Pass by Axis forces.
 * Operation Battleaxe
 * Operation Sommernachtstraum (large reconnaissance operation)
 * Operation Crusader
 * Rommel's push from El Agheila to Gazala (Jan. 21st)
 * Battle of Gazala
 * Operation Venezia (26 May, 1942 - June 21st, 1942) - Rommel's operation for seizing Gazala
 * Battle of Bir Hakeim (May 26 - June 11)
 * The cauldron
 * Operation Aberdeen (June 5th, 1942) - Failed British counter attack
 * Battles of El Alamein
 * First Battle of El Alamein
 * Operation Aida (Jun/July 1942) - Offensive against British Eight Army into the Nile Delta
 * Operation Dora (Jul. 1942) - A raid by members of the Brandenburg Commandos into southern Libya in an effort to disrupt Allied trans-Africa supply routes.
 * Second push to El Alamein (Operation Brandung) and Battle of Alam el Halfa
 * Second El Alamein
 * Operation Lightfoot (October 23, 1942) - A broad offensive initiated by artillery fire
 * Operation Supercharge (November 2, 1942) - Breakout by British 30 Corps in Egypt as part of Eighth Army's offensive in the Western Desert
 * British drive west to Tunisia
 * Capture of Tripoli
 * Conclusions
 * See also
 * References
 * External links

Problems

 * Some sources state Theseus to be Rommel's initial strike during his second offensive
 * Some sources state that Theseus and Venezia are the same operation, with Germans calling it Theseus and the Italian's calling it Venezia
 * Some sources call Venezia a frontal assault on the Gazala Line as a diversion
 * In the Rommel Papers, Rommel addresses the attack on the Gazala line to be "Operation Venezia"

Oberiko 17:38, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Missing link?
This article provides an overview of the fighting between the Italian attacks in 1940 and 2ns Alamein. There's a separate one for the Tunisia campaign, ie Medenine until the axis surrender. Is there anything for the final 8th Army push from 2nd Alamein to Medenine? The article North African campaign also omits this period, but includes everything else. Folks at 137 20:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point; it should definitely be included here. Grant | Talk 03:02, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Ok, inclusion sounds legit, but the intro refers to the early part of the N African campaign, and the campaign box seems to define 2nd Alamein as a cut-off. I know this is not set in stone, but after Alamein seems a logical point for a new article and preventing the current article getting oversize. Folks at 137 05:12, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Typically, from what I've read, the Western Desert Campaign goes on until the start of the Tunisia campaign. IMO, the logical ending point would be the capture of Tripoli. Oberiko 12:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I've added sketchy detail on the period. It's too long for a summary of this type, IMO, but without a separate main article, the detail needs to be somewhere. The article doesn't cover issues of the commanders and their relations with London, which is a gap. Folks at 137 19:51, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

1942
This section states "the 7th Armoured Division was withdrawn". Where to? it stayed in N Africa and participated in the whole campaign. Clarification needed. Folks at 137 18:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)


 * Most likely back to the Nile Delta for rest and refit, ill see if there is any source which confirms this.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:29, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Greek forces
A Greek flag was added to the list of allied belligerents in the infobox, but the article makes no mention of them. I have removed it but would be happy to see it included if there is a source that states Greek forces were engaged and the article amended accordingly. --FactotEm (talk) 10:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I believe they took part in the Second Battle of El Alamein but something like only a brigade sized formation. The Greek flag has also been added to the Tunisian campaign article but i have never heard of there involvment there.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 10:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I guess the Greeks have as much right to be there as the Poles and Free French who both participated at different times in brigade strength. They should all be in (or out). Stephen Kirragetalk - contribs 16:26, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I certainly don't dispute the inclusion of the Poles or Free French. The Second Battle of El Alamein order of battle does indeed list a Greek brigade being part of the British 50th Division, so they do have a right to be listed in this article, it's just odd to only add the flag to the infobox and not mention them elsewhere. If nothing else, it needs to be sourced. --FactotEm (talk) 16:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Flags
Just wondering, whats the story with the flags showing that the Aussies, New Zealanders, South Africans etc were subordante to the United Kingdom?--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 16:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Whenever you see a "British" army referred to in WWII, look harder. It' s highly unlikely that it was purely British, in a strict sense. The Commonwealth largely fought as one and the 8th and 14th Armies were particularly international. The title stems from the predominance of Britain within the Commonwealth, not necessarily from its numerical strength. Commanders were usually British but this was not universal: British units fought under New Zealand generals, for example, and Britain's home air defence was commanded by another New Zealander. Often, "British" units are now referred to as "Commonwealth" ones (but not their official names). Strategy, however, was usually under British control, which irritated the Australians, in particular. Folks at 137 (talk) 06:32, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't worry i know full well how mixed nationaility British Field Armies where, same story with even the Canadian Field Army. However when i posted the questions the flags wered ordered like so:

So they were being shown incorrectly as being subordante countries, colonies if you would like of the UK which at the time was incorrect. The way they are now is fine - in order of troops deployed.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 09:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
 * UK
 * Aussies
 * Kiwis etc
 * some other country etc

I disagree, Australia, South Africa and NZ were part of the Empire back then (Dominion status accepted) and should be listed under the British Empire. If the UK is listed there then there is no reason why the aforementioned should not be.Duarcain (talk) 22:28, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

--Farawayman (talk) 12:45, 26 May 2009 (UTC) I have added the Rhodesian flag - as they made a significant contribution to the air war - particularly when considering their overall national defence capacity. Then again, perhaps they should be cited under an article related to the air war?

"Indian Empire"
(rv to last by EnigmaMcmx [look again: "Indian Empire" is in the 1st par of that article & a large proportion of the soldiers concerned would now be regarded as Pakistani or Bangladeshi.].)

Or British? Considering generally a third of these divisions comprised of British personnel. At any rate I don’t see the last part of the above comment supports the usage of the word "Indian Empire"; what current day countries made up the old British India has nothing to do with the article or the colonies involvement in the Second World War.

In regards to what exactly is the correct terminology, in the Raj article it appears that the terms "British India", "India", "British Empire in India" etc allot more common than the "Indian Empire". Additionally in the lead after speaking about the "Indian Empire" it states "As India, it was a founding member of the League of Nations, the United Nations, and a member nation of the Summer Olympics in 1900, 1920, 1928, 1932, and 1936."

I know particular wiki polices suggest this is no defence but practically all the other Second World War articles i have seen with India in refers to it as such not the Indian Empire. Additionally when reading books on the subject it does seem, in my experience, to common place to refer to the Indian government, India as a place name and the Indian divisions nothing else and not the "Indian Empire". However what is the correct term to use for the Second World War period? I am not really convinced it should be anything else other than India.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Category:North African Campaign vs. Category:Western Desert Campaign
Category:Western Desert Campaign is itself a category within Category:North African Campaign. — Robert Greer (talk) 03:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Casualties
Does anyone have an objection to the tallying up of casualty information from the articles describing the major actions of this campaign (excluding articles that describe a battle withing a major operation as this would duplicate figures) and presenting it within this article's infobox? A note would accompany it stating where each figure is from as well as stating something along the lines of "at least" as it would be resonable to suggest people died between these major actions that have not been recorded.

The current tally would stand as, if my math is not wrong: Allied:152,293 casualties Axis:248,625 casualties

I open the floor.--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 14:13, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

1943?
I notice the Desert War seems to end in late 1943, so why is only 1940-1942 linked to for the Timelines? Also, there is no record of exit from the deserts. I can't provide this information, it is something I think would be useful though those of you who do know. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.170.131.97 (talk) 18:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)