Talk:Western New York/Archives/2011

npov edit
Ajd, sorry for my rash edit, your revision is a good compromise. I wish the folks on the Upstate New York page would be as compromising.--Yende (talk) 19:46, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

Wegmans
There are Wegmens in Central New York as well as the Southern Tier. This should be taken out.--Niro5 17:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Niro5 has a point, but perhaps a clarification that Rochester and WNY are the home of Wegmans would make more sense. Yes, Wegmans now has about 70 stores throughout NY, PA, NJ and VA, but it still is closely identified with WNY (probably due to its family-owned character). Jim Dunning 18:50, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Wegmans started in Rochester (1st store), and has since expanded throughout WNY and into Central NY, and parts of PA, etc. If Wegmans is retained in this article that should be mentioned.Truthunmasked 10:19, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

soda vs pop vs soda-pop
also meny buffalonians dissagree with your discription of Pop Vs. Soda. --Bonojohn 04:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)--


 * Do we? I've been living in Boston and started calling it "soda" in self-defense because no one understood "pop," but when I called it that among family, I was ridiculed for putting on airs! Miss w 05:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Western New York is probably the only place I've ever been in the United States where everyone has universally used the term 'pop' to the same degree as we do on the western side of the Niagara River. In fact, this is quite clearly demonstrated on the Pop vs Soda page. Snickerdo 01:18, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Sometimes referred to as the "Syracuse/Rochester Line" (that's self-research, don't include), there are several terms that switch between Syracuse and Rochester. Another example is "Monkey in the Middle" (east of the line) vs. "Pickle in the Middle" (west of the line). -newkai t-c 00:42, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
 * "pickle in the middle?" I've lived in monroe county basically my whole life and have never heard that term.  Did you make that up?  - [ [ User: tominrochester| tominrochester]]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.6.67.89 (talk) 03:12, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Upstate differentiation
While the differentiation between western and upstate is clear to Western New Yorkers (how many times a week do we have to give the long-suffering sigh and say, "No, I'm not from upstate New York, I'm from western New York"?), it's entirely lost on people not from the region. (Conversation in Portland, OR: "I'm not from Upstate; I'm from a town near Buffalo."/"That's pretty far upstate, isn't it?")

Something should be mentioned about the nature of the region--just defining it isn't enough to merit a full article. Economy? History? Agriculture? Heck, even links to the articles on the counties and towns would be useful here. There just doesn't seem much available. It's hard to tell how much of the area is rural and farm-based from this article. Miss w 05:57, 17 August 2006 (UTC)


 * This bit of text: "Residents of the area use the term "Western New York" to distinguish themselves from residents of Upstate New York." implies that Western New York is not part of Upstate New York. I'm rewording to clarify.  Also some copyedits, like removing condescending use of "crass" for Western New York dialect terms like "pop".  Pfly 00:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Probably because Western New York is not part of Upstate New York in the minds of many. Reverting back.  --Yende (talk) 15:38, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Um, also, there is a 190 MB image on the page? Takes forever to load.  Removing. Pfly 01:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Livingston and Monroe Counties (where are they?) in Western New York
Livingston, Monroe, and part of Wyoming Counties are in Western New York. I think we should refer to them as the Genesee Valley region counties of Western New York rather than "Central New York".


 * I grew up in Wyoming County, and it was always referred to as Western New York. Anyone I grew up with would be very confused by a "Central New York" listing!  There wasn't even a question about it.  And I was on the eastern side of it (Perry).  Central New York is the Finger Lakes region. Miss w 16:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Monroe County is in the Finger Lakes Region
Nobody in Rochester says that they live in Western New York. Western New York is west of Livingston and Monroe Counties. Rogermx 15:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I live in Rochester and I consider myself a western New Yorker. -- T M F Let's Go Mets - Stats 02:23, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I also live in Rochester, and don't know anyone who doesn't think they are in Western N.Y. Also, news agencies like YNN, educational institutions like the University of Rochester, and many other groups and organizations say Rochester is part of Western NY.  For example, the Landmark society of Western New York is headquartered in Rochester.  The argument that Rochester is in Central New York really doesn't hold any water.

[User: Tominrochester]

Western New York
Western New York is comprised of exactly eight counties. Those counties are Niagara, Erie, Orleans, Wyoming, Genesee, Chatauqua, Cattaraugus and Alleghany. Monroe and Livingston Counties are not in Western New York. RealBigFlipsbrain 02:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me, but how many of the people in this discussion actually live in Rochester/Monroe County? Let me bring up the discussion from a native (and current residential) point of view. I was born in the city, and grew up in Penfield (a town bordering on the east side of Rochester (but still in Monroe County). To the east of us is where the "315ers" live (the people in the 315 Area Code region, i.e. Wayne and Ontario County close by, and heading out to Syracuse and beyond).  We identify more with the Buffalonians, and several of us would even agree that you could extend the meaning of the Canadian "Golden Horseshoe" around Lake Ontario to include us.  (The band Moxy Früvous have referred to us in the past as being in "Metro Canada".)

Our sports loyalties are to the Rochester teams first, then the Buffalo Major leagues, with baseball being split between Yankee/Met fans and haters (although there are three MLB clubs closer to us: Toronto, Cleveland, and Boston.

The Rochester Metro area is split between being Western and Central New Yorkers, but the dividing line would be at the border bewtween Monroe and Wayne/Ontario Counties. --Paploo 20:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I've got no opinion on the question at hand, but no way is Boston closer to Rochester than NYC is. AJD 00:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


 * I just checked on Google Maps, and NYC is about 60 miles closer, and you can get there in a little less time, but only if you drive through Pennsylvania and New Jersey. Driving within the state will take you 7-8 hours, while driving to Boston only takes 6, from Rochester. --Paploo 16:05, 23 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Sports loyalties and personal feelings aside, Western New York is Niagara, Erie, Orleans, Wyoming, Genesee, Chatauqua, Cattaraugus and Alleghany counties. When Western New York's local television channels display, say, weather maps for example, they display the 'eight' counties of western New York. Don't get me wrong, it's great to have so many Bills and Sabres fans in the bordering regions, it's just a simple matter of political geography. If there is any remaining confusion, please see the map included in the Finger Lakes region article here on Wikipedia. RealBigFlipsbrain (talk) 00:13, 31 January 2008 (UTC)


 * You present some seriously flawed arguments. First of all, a community decides what they identify with. If the majority of Rochester residents consider themselves part of Western New York, then that is the region they're part of. Who are we to tell them what region they are a part of? Secondly, when a Buffalo station's weather maps are displayed, Buffalo and its surrounding suburbs are immediately displayed. Why?; because Buffalo and Rochester for the most part have 2 different sets of stations. This is most similar to the Baltimore and Washington DC/Northern Virginia, who have different sets of stations but are generally considered part of the same region. Finally, putting Rochester exclusively in the Finger Lakes region aligns the entire area with Syracuse, a city further away from Rochester than Buffalo. Syracuse considers itself part of Central New York, something which I haven't heard anyone outside this board describe Rochester as a part of.

I am 51 years old, born, raised and still live in Rochester, as were my five sisters, both of my parents, all of my aunts and uncles (both blood and in-law), all of my 22 first cousins and two of my grandparents. There is NO WAY anyone in Monroe County considers themselves to be part of Central New York. Also, there is not one finger lake in Monroe County. We are Western New Yorkers. Always have been, always will be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.46.28.109 (talk) 20:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC) I'm probably not formatting this in the right way, but I can give many examples of organizations that say Rochester is part of Western NY. YNN (local news), Western N.Y. historical society, Westernny.com (travel site), world travels, etc... very, very few organizations consider Rochester as part of Central New York. Also, the finger lakes region vs. western new york is really an "apples vs. oranges" argument. West is a direction, Finger lakes implies a description, I would say as a native of Rochester, that I live in Western N.Y., and that the city is on the edge of the finger lakes region... [user: tominrochester] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tominrochester (talk • contribs) 02:16, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Major League Sports
Although lacrosse hasn't caught on too much in the Southern States, I think that the National Lacrosse League should be mentioned here, especially since this is the one sport that the top level of contention, Rochester and Buffalo (and Toronto, among others) play each other. (They both have teams in baseball's International League, but there is still a level above them.) --Paploo 20:20, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Cornell University
I'm not knowledgeable at all in this area, but I noticed that Ithaca is counted as one of the metro areas but Cornell is not included in the list of colleges and universities. Is there a reason for this or is this just an overlook? OGOLD (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Ithaca would be more associated with the Central NY region as well as the Finger Lakes before Western NY. A Finger Lake town such as Canadaigua would be more associated with Western NY because it's within the Rochester MSA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk) 17:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

WNY Food, Religion, etc.
I think there should be a section on food, language, and religion. Even helping people get to other articles would be sufficient. Food for example, we have wings, beef on weck, garbage plates, and even hamburgers are named for a city in the region. Additionally, religion is completely left out! What about our beautiful Chautauqua Institution which is world famous, or Lily Dale (a spiritualist institution). WNY was known as the Burned-over district and (I don't know where the line actually is but...) what about where Mormonism was founded? Or what about the strong presence of Catholicism or the presence of Anabaptist communities?

Additionally we're part of the Rust Belt. Why isn't that mentioned? That's a major part of our history (or present situation??) How about major ethnic representations in the area? Italians, Irish, Poles, SCANDINAVIANS? I think that the cuisine is important to mention because we are influenced by these people. Pizza is a staple food in WNY, but it's not in Vermont! Fish fries are very common also... all influenced by these people. I realize that may not be 'very scientific' but I think that perhaps there is a better way of representing it.

You could actually sum up that the area is also part of other regions, such as Appalachia, the Rust Belt, Burned-over district, in addition to being part of the Mid-Atlantic States.

I personally think this page is totally lame considering the amount of history and culture present in WNY. We are a crossroads in so many ways (particularly with I90 connecting the NE to the rest of the country). This page needs some work, maybe I'll add when I have time. 140.233.216.47 (talk) 20:03, 30 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Feel free to add on. The history/culture aspect definitely needs improvement.

Ok, so I broke down part of the lead into culture and region topics. Culture could use expansion of food and what not. Also, added in the points about the burned over district, and rust belt membership :) Paranormal Skeptic (talk) 21:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks. This article has come a long way since around July 2007.

Definition
As illustrated in discussions from 2007 above, the definition of "Western New York" is variable. It's well established that Buffalonians consider Western New York to include only the eight closest counties, but it's almost as well established that most Rochesterians consider themselves part of Western New York. I think having once shared the 716 area code has a lot to do with that -- "315ers" being a common designation for areas east of Monroe County.

However, the major problem is that the supposed "sources" in this article for the definition are woefully inadequate. There are four references in this version. The first supposedly defines the region as the closest eight counties to Buffalo, but the site makes no mention of "Western New York" -- it calls the region "Buffalo Niagara" and includes Ontario's Niagara Peninsula. The second likewise does not mention "Western New York", but defines an area that includes Monroe, Wayne, Livingston, Ontario, and Yates counties -- yet Yates isn't even colored pink on the map in our article! The third source is of extremely dubious provenance -- it appears to be a commercial link but there's no information on who owns or runs the site; there is no way to evaluate its reliability. The fourth source is the best, but it still isn't an official source, and defines WNY as including counties as far as Chemung, Steuben, and Schuyler down in the Southern Tier -- which means it doesn't match the text in the article it's supposedly sourcing.

I would like to see the map revised to paint just the westernmost eight counties red, with Monroe, Wayne, Ontario, Livingston, Yates, Steuben, Schuyler, and Chemung counties in pink, but we'll need some decent sources in order to do so. At a minimum, though, the current sources don't even remotely support the information in the lead and that needs to be corrected.

-- Powers T 12:49, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree and disagree.

Yes some of the sourcing definitely need some changing, but some of the sources are definitely on point. When I originally sourced the UB website, it defined "Western New York" as those eight counties. That website has since changed to "Buffalo-Niagara". That issue will have to be addressed. The second source is actually the best source. It's a television media market map of what's considered the Rochester market. When MSG broadcast a Sabres games to only "Western New York” markets, it's the Buffalo and Rochester markets that get the Sabres game. When Bills games are blacked-out in “Western New York”, as far as I know (and someone correct me if I'm wrong), it's blacked out in both the Buffalo and Rochester markets. Yates didn't make the cut because while it is within Rochester Media Market, it’s outside the Rochester Metropolitan Area according to the census. The third map isn’t a particularly good source but it does indicate that the sellers of this real estate company believe Wayne County is in Western NY. The fourth is pretty good source. The problem though is with the extra five counties. First, the other five counties isn’t part of neither the Buffalo nor Rochester MSA. Second it falls under a different media market, outside of both the Buffalo and Rochester markets. This means they do not black-out Bills games in cases of non-sellouts. Finally, residents there generally consider themselves residents of the Finger Lakes or the Southern Tier, not Western New York. This is in contrast to many residents in the Buffalo and Rochester areas who would at least call themselves Western New Yorkers. If we have a lot of people in these counties declaring themselves Western New Yorkers then we could include at least some of these counties in WNY. Still the sources do need some fixing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk) 19:13, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Some research
I've decided to undertake a bit of cursory research into definitions with the assistance of Google Books.
 * Western New York: From Niagara Falls and Southern Ontario to the Western Edge of the Finger Lakes includes all of Monroe County plus Steuben and Ontario Counties, and even Yates County and Elmira.
 * Fishing Western New York goes as far east as Oswego and Syracuse.
 * Western New York Amusement Parks explicitly "defines Western New York as designated by New York State Tourism ... Allegany, Cattaraugus, Chatauqua, Erie, Genesee, Niagara, Orleans, and Wyoming."
 * Take a Paddle: Western New York Quiet Water for Canoes & Kayaks includes Monroe, Livingston, and Steuben Counties.
 * History of Western New York incorporates anything west of Utica (though it was published in 1848, so take that with a grain of salt!).
 * Historical Sketches of Western New York, written in 1887, appears to include both the Phelps and Gorham Purchase and the Holland Purchase, which is basically everything west of Seneca Lake (and Sodus Bay).

As you can see, it's very poorly defined. The definition seems to always include the westernmost eight counties, though definitions that are limited to those counties (primarily the tourism definition) seem to come about because of the lack of a better term for the eight-county area (that is, they defined the area first, then named it, rather than the other way around). But beyond those eight core counties, the definition can vary widely. Powers T 19:47, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

What does Chicago have to do with anything?
The Western New York page says "To many Western New York residents, the city of Chicago is looked to more as a role model and cultural capital of the region than New York City even though New York City is the largest city in New York State." But I was born and raised in Western New York and over the last 50 years I've never known anyone for whom this is true. I think this should be removed. CBProf (talk) 06:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Not Really
I grew up in Rochester and have always called it Western New York, as have most people I know. Eddiefranklin 04:48, 25 July 2007 (UTC)


 * being as that may, Rochester is in Central New York along with Syracuse, and is no part of Western New York.RealBigFlipsbrain 02:14, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I lived in WNY for a while. I have never ever heard of a native of Rochester describing Rochester as part of Central NY. Many Rochester natives I've talked to consider themselves part of Western NY. Many of the media outlets in Rochester consider itself as part of Western NY. The Bills and Sabres are the major league teams that people up there generally support (unlike most of the rest of the state). There's a decent amount of commuters who make the hour-long commute between Rochester and Buffalo daily. The old Empire Sports Network basically covered only the Buffalo and Rochester metro areas (in other words Western NY). Syracuse on the other hand consider itself "Central New York". Very few there would consider Rochester as part of their region (and vice-versa). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 170.3.8.253 (talk) 20:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

As a 30 year resident of Rochester, I hear people describe it as being part of Upstate New York or the Finger Lakes Region, not Western or Central New York. Except for the pro sports teams and the occasional weather story, Rochesterians are totally indifferent as to what happens in or to Buffalo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rogermx (talk • contribs) 03:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The idea that these terms are as precise as the article implies is preposterous. Someone has made this set of articles their pet and have decided they are going to commandeer the English language and give these vague terms a crisp definition they have NEVER had.  Anything west of (at least) Syracuse or Binghampton may be and sometimes is described as "Western New York."  I'm native to Chemung County and it is part of "Upstate New York" the "Southern Tier" and "Western New York."  I use the latter-most term all the time because "Upstate" it too general and few outside of Western New York have any clue where the "Southern Tier" is.  Half the people who live here are clueless as to what the "Souther Tier" is actually composed of, save the area "around here" (journalists are the main purveyors of the term)--but most would identify themselves as being from "Western New York."  This is not to say that Rochester or Corning is as patently "Western New York" as Geneseo, but that's not the point.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.220.236 (talk) 06:52, 17 December 2009 (UTC)


 * Quite. Criticality (talk)