Talk:Western United States/Archive 1

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= Discussions from Talk:American West =

Untitled
Archive I- discusses defining the region, its associated categories, if this article should have been created, redirecting to and merging it with Western United States (the was merge accomplished), and a disputed dempgraphics section (which was untimately rewritten and included).

This article survived a a VFD nomination. You can view an archive of the debate here. The result was keep. -JCarriker 18:18, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Disputed

 * Most commentators today recognize the distinction of the Census Bureau for a number of reasons including ... examples being laws restricting sex toys.

I've spent the last couple of days trying to find any source that defines the American West using these criteria. Admittedly I'm an amateur, but I found no such source. I did find the American West to be an academic study area, with many museums and heritage centers scattered across the country (from Oklahoma to California), and that it is a major part of the tourism industry in those many states. It would seem to me that if most commentators today (or even many or some) were true, I would have at least found a trace. A reputable source would be helpful if this section is to be verified. DialUp 8 July 2005 14:12 (UTC)

I have seen it before and I will try to find something. But the rest of the passage is facts. The official west does not include states such as Texas. I have lived in the West my entire life and have never heard such a thing. We are not only different by location but philosophical outlooks as well. I would say that to include Texas in the modern west is inaccurate, esp. as the Census is the definitve source for the modern west. To include such states as the historical west before Manifest Destiny is fine, but not in the present. Globeism 23:01, 9 July 2005 (UTC)

Visit cnn.com or any other news organization, only the states considered to be the West by the census are such at the present time. Globeism 23:05, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
 * The same edits were made at Western United States would you please transcribe your concerns there. -JCarriker July 8, 2005 17:49 (UTC)


 * It's taken a long time but I tried my best to check CNN (although they're not my view of an ideal source). I didn't find any articles saying the American West was defined by prostitution, same-sex marriages, polygamy, and such. Here are my searches: "american west" +gambling (0 hits); "american west" +same +sex +marriage (0 hits); "american west" +medical +marijuana (1 hit, but the terms were unrelated); "american west" +polygamy (2 hits, but they refered to the American West, not the census region); and "american west" +prostitution (0 hits).
 * Also some of the facts presented are incorrect. For instance, polygamy, while not specifically authorized, does not appear to have been illegal in any US territory before 1862, and was never legal in Utah. Polygamy was prohibited in the territories by Congress under the Anti-Bigamy Act of 1862, the Poland Act of 1874, the Edmunds Act of 1882, the Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887, and by the Utah constitution before statehood was granted. I believe Utah is actually the only state with a constitutional clause banning polygamy. The same-sex marriage facts are wrong and also something of a red herring when trying to identify the West; Utah for instance amended its constitution in 2004 to define a marriage as being between a man and a woman, and anyone anywhere can propose any law. And prostitution, although allowed in about 10 counties in Nevada, prohibited in a couple more, and neither prohibited nor legal in the rest, appears to relate only to a single state, not a region. Even so, no source has been provided that says any of this is relevant to delineating the borders of any geographical area.
 * Also, the US Census Bureau region "West" is not the American West and was never intended as such by the Census Bureau. The Bureau is alway quite specific that their regions are for statistical reports only and do not define historical, cultural, or geographical regions. From their website&mdash;"Census regions are groupings of states that subdivide the United States for the presentation of data." Other agencies have official regions too. One might want to look at the Bureau of Reclamation map to see the only congressionally approved "West". As stated on the archived talk page, the term American West was never used to refer to any region east of the Mississippi, and the history of those regions is addressed in Trans-Appalachia and Manifest Destiny. The frontier ended in the 1890s with the opening of Indian Territory and there has been no further westward migration which might have moved the borders.
 * I'll copy this section over to the other article when it's completed, if that's all right. DialUp 03:34, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


 * In American West studies the West has always been defined by a sense of libertarianism, not the authoritarianism prevelant in the South. Those above mentions are facts, while Utah amendmed their Constitution it was nowhere near the level of support seen in the south and the Governor is the one who proposed the bill to allow another form of recognition, not just somebody.


 * If the American West article gets merged with the Western United States it should be in the history and the map should not reflect the purported territory of the American West. The Western United States is defined by the government, namely the Census, however we can use a different shade to designate states that have been considered Western by history. For users this is the best approach, it allows them to easily identify the government recognized region and the historical regions at the same time. With your approach they can only identify the historical West and not even the whole thing, its missing the Northwest Territory for example.

Globeism 17:23, 16 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Dailup can you propose any solutions that will take both into account? I suggest we have a color to designate the government recognized region and another shade to designate the historical region. Does this sound good? Globeism


 * Well, the article has been redirected, but I still hope that some responsible administrator will fix it. The American West is the correct name for an important region of the United States and deserves a real article. I appreciate the link below to PBS The West because it reflects the view of most responsible academians. I posted a request at Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy for clarification so maybe the problem can be worked out. DialUp 22:12, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I have responded to your allegations. DialUP have you even read Western United States? -JCarriker 22:45, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Rfc
Whether this page was created by design to avoid the other article or through a mistaken interpretation of what the article was, maintianing two articles is clearly a violation of Wikipedia's policy towards duplicate articles. However I beleive there is a lack of clarity as to how to procede with any action towards this page right now. As such I am filing an Rfc on the page. -JCarriker July 8, 2005 17:49 (UTC)

What to do with American West survey
'''This vote is now closed. Further votes will not be counted. The result was 6 for redirecting American West to Western United States, 0 for disambig, and 0 for redirecting Western United States to American West.''' -JCarriker 01:41, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

American West was changed from a redirect to U.S. West, now located at Western United States due to a change in suggested naming conventions by WikiProject U.S. regions, into a duplicate article on October 29, 2004. American West has been merged with Western United States, but no consensus has been reached over what to do with American West&mdash; redirecting to Western United States and disambiging between Western United States and Wild West, have both been proposed. This survey will last from 21:14, July 9, 2005 (UTC) until 21:14, July 12, 2005. Please vote only once. -JCarriker 21:14, July 9, 2005 (UTC)

Redirect to Western United States

 * 1) -JCarriker 21:14, July 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * 2) -Redwolf24 21:38, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 3) Jmabel | Talk 22:42, July 9, 2005 (UTC). I would point out that we also have a topic Wild West. American West seems to be an effort to cover a culture, somewhere between the outright myth of Wild West and the factuality of Western United States. It seems to me that any cultural issues covered at American West could as easily be handled at Western United States. If there is eventually enough material to merit an article on Culture of the American West or Culture of the Western United States, we could spin that out of Western United States at a later date. I don't see the advantage of an article at the title American West. If there is a case for that, someone should state it clearly.
 * 4) Theresa Knott  (a tenth stroke) 22:46, 9 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 5) UH Collegian 11:45, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * 6) · Katefan0(scribble) 18:22, July 12, 2005 (UTC)

Prostitution
Somewhat surprised to see that only one US state has prostitution, according to the caption of one of the article's images. Or does it refer to legal prostitution? james gibbon 19:35, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes it mean legal prostition, I imagien every state has illegal prostitution. -JCarriker 20:14, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

Oklahoma and Texas
Oklahoma and Texas have always been part of the West. Anyone who has ever been here will know that. I can give references. DHarjo 20:33, 15 July 2005 (UTC) You're right. I'm a dumb illiterate. That's why I can't read or turn pages. Maybe that's why I can't find the references you say says Oklahoma and Texas are may or may not Western states and why I can't find the consensus you talk about. Maybe you can put &lt;red&gt; and &lt;/red&gt; on either side of them so I can find them. DHarjo 08:41, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
 * This has been discussed ad nauseum on the talk page, we already have good references supporting both arguements. The consensus is to include TX & OK in the may or may not category rather than the always category. Please see the above archive. Thanks. -JCarriker 22:03, July 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * I never said anything of questioning your intelligence or literacy, I was polite and even thanked you for your inquirey, and directed you to where you could see where this issue was previously discussed. Until you correct your negative attitude I have no intention of lifting a finger to help you with anything. -JCarriker 18:54, July 16, 2005 (UTC)


 * DHarjo, the tone of your remark seems totally inappropriate. That said, go to Talk:American_West/archive1, search for "Texas". The upshot is, sure, El Paso is in the West, but, for example, Galveston certainly isn't. -- Jmabel | Talk 21:26, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

I come here trying to help and you brush me off and treat me like a child. You're wrong about Texas.--University of Texas, Spring 2005: The Contemporary American West "Course Description: In this course we will look at modern novels, short stories, and essays that have as their focus the nature of the American West, particularly Texas.  Some of the works examine the myth of the “wild west”—cowboys, Indians, outlaws, and the like.  Others deal with the vanishing West of legend.  Others more specifically offer comment on the nature of the modern American West." DHarjo 23:19, 17 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You took the hostile tone not I. -JCarriker 01:43, July 18, 2005 (UTC)


 * It's clear to me that Texas straddles the line -- South and West. There are aspects of both cultures, activities and histories. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 23:31, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes, exactly; thank you. -JCarriker 01:43, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know any of you but I do know Ken Burns credentials. I respect his view of the West (PBS The West) because everything he does is well-researched and documented. I also believe my experiences in Texas and the courses I've taken. I don't know any source that says Texas is not part of the West. Until you document what you say, how can anyone believe it. DHarjo 02:55, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Well, I've lived in Texas virtually all of my life. Also, I don't think anybody here has said Texas isn't part of the West.  What I personally have said is that it's part of both -- a curious, wonderful amalgamation.  It's its own entity.  It takes from both geographic regions and cultures.  It is both West, and South, and because of that not quite exactly either. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 03:37, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

You've got the question backwards. The question is, "Is there any definition of the West that doesn't include Texas?" The answer is no. No university in the West that has a Western Studies chair or department ever ignores Oklahoma, Texas, or any of the plains states in any comprehensive study of the West. I notice that someone has erased this article and forwarded readers to a page that now tries to pretend California and the other West Coast states are not part of the West. How bizarre. I had such high hopes for Wikipedia. DHarjo 12:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to hear you're disappointed. You may find it less stressful to work on other topics.  Good luck &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 14:19, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Stressed. Hardly. This is the kind of activity you expect from teen-agers. Disappointed. Yes. The welcome on my discussion page listed a lot of pages that talked about citing sources and all kinds of noble ideas. Since my interest is the American West I have quite a number of books published by some of the most respected people in the field. I thought some of that would make a nice addition to the American West article. Turns out that all that noble talk was hot air. Nobody here cares about references and sources. Yes, I am disappointed. You know, if you and your buddy really believed yourselves, you would both be over fixing the Southern United States that say Texas is always part of the South and the Texas page that never mentions the West. DHarjo 22:34, 19 July 2005 (UTC) If you really are teenagers, I apologize. Teenagers are just as smart and can do just as careful research as anyone else. DHarjo 18:01, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * No, I'm far from a teenager, but I still appreciate your bigness of heart. It's never easy to apologize. Thanks. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 18:11, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
 * Sorry, one year too old to qualify. However, like Kate, I still appreciate your gesture. -JCarriker 23:51, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Rcats needed
This protected redirect needs Rcats. Please modify as follows...

Present code:

Please change to:

OR

Since this article and talk page have been inactive since 2005-06, you might consider unprotecting it, in which case the new code would look like this (without "protected"): (If this page becomes unprotected, then I shall be glad to add the Rcats.)

Also, this talk page should probably be archived at Talk:Western United States, and then REDIRECTED to that talk page. I'll be glad to do that when the Rcats are added. Thank you very much! – Paine Ellsworth  (  C LIMAX   )  02:20, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
 * PS. I begin my one-week vacation today (Saturday 10:35, 16 July 2011 (UTC)), so have a great week, and see ya next Saturday!

= Discussions from Talk:American West/Archive 1 =

Proposed categories
Proposed sub-category and sub-sub-categories for the category Regions of the United States:
 * Category:American West
 * Category:Culture of the American West; (food, music, art, dance, language, etc. unique to the West; to include popular culture)
 * Category:History of the American West; (historical events affecting the West, or at least large regions of the West)
 * Category:People of the American West (people important to the history, growth, etc., of the West)
 * Category:Regions within the American West; (geographical or cultural regions within the West)
 * Category:States of the American West; (the seventeen states of the American West)

States within the American West
66.167.139.165 06:06, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC): The map and the article claim that the following states are western: Arizona California Colorado Idaho Kansas Montana Nebraska Nevada New Mexico North Dakota Oklahoma Oregon South Dakota Texas Utah Washington Wyoming. Those I've struck out as well as the orange "Sometimes included with the West" Mississippi River states shouldn't even be mentioned.


 * Thanks for your input. Could you give some reasons for your opinions. Where would you put Dodge City, Kansas, for instance. Or the Badlands of South Dakota? Or what do you make of Nebraska's motto, "Where the West Begins"? Also, I think the reason the orange states are mentioned is that when the continent is divided between "east" and "west", it is usually at the Mississippi River.12.74.168.20 16:31, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Actually, the inclusion of the orange states came because of all of the 19th century historical references that identified the "West" and "Far West" as those states west of the Mississippi. For one of the best known, see Beyond the Mississippi by Albert D. Richardson, 1867: reprint edition, June 1, 1967, by Johnson Reprint Corp, ISBN 0384506704 . Also, the red states came from the very many reference books (history, travel, geographical, etc.), and from the several government web sites I visited in reference to what constituted the West. The yellow states are included because of the few references I found that mentioned Hawaii and Alaska (US Census Bureau, Western Governors Conference, etc.) -CPret 15:38, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)


 * Notwithstanding that, can you actually have a definition of the American West that says, categorically, that Dodge City and the Badlands are not part of the West? That seems to me like empty pedantry. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:42, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)
 * Deadwood, South Dakota, anyone? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:44, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Merege with U.S. West at Western United States
This article has serious POV problems. It shoudn't have been created in the first place, the information should have been added to U.S. West&mdash; which contrary to this articles' POV is not exclusively about the census bureau region. Either way both articles need to be merged at Western United States, which is where the article should be located under WikiProject U.S. regions naming conventions. Also, I'm removing the Demographics section to the talk page, because it is not only POV, but a source for the adjusted statistics is not given. -JCarriker 20:54, Jun 3, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll try to address your concerns in the subsections below. CPret 17:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Do not rename: I strongly object to the title Western United States for this article. Concur with Jmbel below that America vs United States is a red herring. The area is almost univerally know as the American West (see Category:American West). Also, the area identified as the West in the Western United States article is not the conventional definition of the American West. DialUp 14:45, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * This article is a duplicate, this article has always been a duplicate&mdash; it was created from a redirect to U.S. West. I will no longer speculate about why it was created (as I feel that despite this article's hostile stance toward the original article it was a mistake for me to reciprocate the hostility), but whatever CPret wanted to say should have been added to U.S. West, the article's title at the time American West was written. It has never been the intention of WikiProject U.S. regions to force the census bureau defintion on articles, the designation existed to distinguish regions that had census bureau defintions from ones that did not. Regardless that hierarchy has since been abolished. The only time the WikiProject has not recomend flexibility is when a concreate national model for regions is needed, something that should not apply in indivual regions articles, and is rarely needed elsewhere. Even when the hierarchy was in force, differening views were not opposed. Just review the history of what is now the Southern United States article, to see how the exceptions and variations seciton in that article has not only survived but thrived, during the WikiProject's existence. If it had been our intention not to include differing views, why wouldn't that section's removal at least have been brought up?
 * Since this debate is becoming quite long, I'm consolidating my current postion here.Please don't break up the post, but post after it.:
 * US West is not an exclusive page about the US Census region there was histoical, cultural, and geographic information in the version of U.S. West before American West was written. The fact that differences and variations were included, in U.S. West (Alaska & Hawaii), U.S. South, and U.S. Northeast, proves that the articles were not taking the census definition as the only definition.
 * The American West article should never have been created it was an existing redirect to U.S. West, which per a above was not exclusively about the Census region. If CPret had a problem with the article title he should have made a post on U.S. West's talk page, and discussed the matter, as I have. Not created a duplicate article.
 * Both articles should be merged to Western United States, there should never have been two articles in the first place. All other U.S. regional articles with directions in thier name are now located at similar titles, e.g.Northern United States.
 * Demographics section is POV, original research, and unsourced. CPret has now, provided the source of the section. I am proposing a compromise on the the demographics section, dropping the Oringal reseach claim, in favor of removing POV. See: Demographics Compromise -JCarriker 05:24, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)
 * I still don't see a reason for using the less familiar name. Also, I don't see anything particularly hostile. The article has only one sentence that mentions the U.S. Census Bureau, and from checking the Census Bureau page, it seems correct. You could have saved me a couple of hours looking into this matter if you had just acknowledged that CPret was right. Someone first proposed the adoption of US Census Bureau regions as the "official" regions 23 Dec 2003. And Template:U.S. regions, which first identified U.S. West as one of the Census Bureau Regions, was created 9 Jun 2004. CPret had every right to assume it was a Census Region page. As for asking for permission to create a page: Who ever does that? Who has the authority to give permission anyway? Redirects are created everyday for subjects that don't yet have articles. I've done it myself. DialUp 19:21, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Someone proposed using the census regions as a standard, and also created Template:U.S. regions. You know who? Me. I've been involved with the WikiProject from the begining which is how I know CPret's interpretation of it policy are wrong. No one has said CPret didn't have a right to make assupmtions, and no one has said permission is needed to create articles. I would appreciate it if you would not put words in my mouth. CPret's assumption that the article was exclusively about the Census region is wrong. The wikiprojects policy as of Jun 22, 2004, the latest version before this article was created, says Emphasis should be placed on the Census Bureau only when a fixed national grouping is necessary. The census regions should never be used to exclude a state from or lock it permanently into a region. Discussion about the diversity of regions, and their interpretations even in Census Bureau articles. The Census infoboxes exist to portray census information, not represent various interpretations of the region as Non-Census infoboxes do. Further more the article is hostile to the Census bureau's defintion and the problems it creates. The definition he offfers excludes other interpretation and even attacks an alternative defintion,- the Census bureau saying for example Texas' in the South causes problems. Though it be of a suprise to you and CPret there are millions of Texas who are perfectly happy to be part of the South. Any fair person will tell you that Texas is part of both the South and the West. The same goes for Oklahoma, and Kansas and above for the Midwest. As for naming conventions it does not violate them. Specificity can be used over polularity see:Jefferson National Expansion Memorial, and the meaning is widely known. It seems that you and CPret are objecting to differnet views of what constitutes the West. Surely this isn't the case, is it? -JCarriker 09:10, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

US West is not an exclusive page about the US Census region
Yes it is. The second sentence clearly states that it is and the population data confirms it. When I first came across it, it seemed to be part of a Wikiproject to develop articles about all the Census regions and to assign states only to those regions so identified. CPret 17:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken, I am one of the founders and current Coordinator of that wikiproject and that was never our intent. Its quite the opposite, to ensure that regions are not locked into models and are inclusive of various interprtations and the diversity within regions. The Census Bureau regions, is only one defintion and they are only to be used when a concrete defintion is needed. The infoboxes exist to give information about the region, where census bureau regions apply. If, it was our intention to force this defintion on articles, the varations and exceptions section would have been removed from U.S. South, now located at Southern United States. The second sentence says, "As defined by the Census Bureau, the Western region of the United States includes 13 states:..." it does not say the region has only 13 states. -JCarriker 23:53, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry for the delay in getting back. I seldom contribute to Wikipedia anymore unless someone tells me something needs my attention. Why you wish to discuss my thinking for creating the article instead of the merits puzzles me. First, the page (as referenced in your history link) stated (and still states) that it is a Census Bureau region; the only states included were those within the Census Bureau and with no other supporting evidence; the article had nothing showing a common history, culture, or geography linking those states together (indeed it admits that Alaska and Hawaii have little or no commonality with the others); and as it had no reference so I couldn’t check the accuracy of any of its statements. Also the table had (and still has) a list of statistics applying only the the Census Bureau region and compiled from unknown sources (although I would assume the population figures are from a Census Bureau compiled report). Secondly the Wikiprojects page dating from that time specifically calls for both Census Bureau Regions and Non-Census Bureau Regions. The American West (a non-Census Bureau region) was redirected toward a Census Bureau region and accordingly needed an article. I even attempted to include a map following the guidelines of the project page. CPret 02:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The American West article should never have been created
There was no American West article at that time. Under the Wikipedia naming conventions, an article is to be given its most common name. The American West is the most common and well known name for a recognized area of the United States and needed an article. The US West article was not it, as it was entirely about a Census Bureau division only peripherally related to the American West. CPret 17:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The U.S. article had cultural, political, and geographic inforfmation in the article as its version before you made American West, which was a redirect to U.S. West. clearly shows. It still does.-JCarriker 23:53, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)

Both articles should be merged to Western United States
The Western United States is not the common name for the American West. Western United States is a general area which could be anywhere in the western United States&mdash;more of a dictionary term than a name for an encylcopedia article. The American West is a standard term and, as found in most scholarly books and popular literature, currently refers to those states west of the first tier of states west of the Mississippi River (See Additional reading section of main article for partial list of references to that effect). Historically it also referred to all of the states west of the Mississippi. The West (but not the American West) in early American history also referred to many regions&mdash;west of the Alleghenies; west of the Appalachians; what is now know as the Midwest; the old Northwest Territories; etc. Perhaps some of the Western United States article could be merged here. CPret 17:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Sir, Western Unites States is a common name, more over United States, not America is the International name for our country, and this is an interantional encyclopedia. Your defintion is common, but no more so than the censu bureau definition, likewise theri are other varations, all of the states West of the Mississippi, removing the Mid-Western states but keeping Texas and Oklahoma, keeping the Census defintion but exlcuding the Pacific states, moving NM, CO, WY, &MT into the Central region, and these are only the modern versions. You are right that a nod to the fact that every thing east of the Original 13 States, FL, ME, and VT has at sometime been the West. The West has continued to evolve so much so that the second tier of states West of the Mississippi are no longer universally considered the West and that some people in the Pacific states, embrace a seperate identity. -JCarriker 23:53, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * World-wide, both America and American refer to the United States or to things relating to the United States, so I'm unconvinced. Even if that confusion was true, Wikipedia requires things be named according to their common and most well-know name and further requires editors to use that English which conforms to the country in which the subject originates. Although I agree that censorship has its place, in my opinion this is not one of them. Too, the western in western United States is almost never capitalized in common use: a sure sign it is not a proper name. Also, of all the modern references I checked before I created the article, none of them restricted the West to 13 states, so I feel that statement to be incorrect. CPret 02:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I think that both "American West" and "Western United States" are perfectly clear. One should redirect to the other, and both names should be in the lead. Personally, it's a matter of indifference to me which way around, but if we have a WikiProject standard, we should follow it. I do think the issue about "American" not always meaning "U.S." is a red herring here: I'm not aware of any English-speaking country where "American West" does not basically mean "Western United States"; the only difference I'm aware of is that the former is less likely to include the Pacific Coast states (or at least their western portions) and never includes Alaska and Hawaii. So if those 5 states are going to be in the article, I guess "Western United States" is a better title (yes, I'm slightly contradicting what I wrote a few sentences back about being indifferent). -- Jmabel | Talk 17:52, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Demographics section is POV, original research, and unsourced
I can't see how United States Census data can be POV, original research, or unsourced. However, see With all due respect below. CPret 17:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)


 * Most of it is not census data but your own compilations using census data. See With all due respect -JCarriker 23:53, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC) & 02:53, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)

Demographics
The demographics for the West are complicated by United States Census Bureau's reporting system. In the 2000 Census, the Census Bureau included the state with the second largest Hispanic population, Texas, in the South region, included the state with the second largest American Indian population, Oklahoma, also in the South, and included the Dakotas, with their large populations of Plains Indians, in with the Midwest region.

Statistics from the 2000 United States Census show the seventeen states in the West had a population of 91,457,622, including 1,611,447 Indians, or 1.8% of the total, and 22,377,288 Hispanics (the majority Mexican), or 24.5% of the total. Indians comprise 0.9% of all Americans, and Hispanics, 12.5%. Asians, important from the very beginning in the history of the West, totaled 5,161,446, or 5.6%, with most, not surprisingly, living in the Far West. Blacks, whose contributions to the West are well documented, totaled 5,929,968, or 6.5%--lower than the national proportion (12.8%). The highest concentration (12%) of black residents in the West is found in Texas--the only Western state in which slavery was established.

The West is still one of the most sparsely settled areas in the United States with 49.5 inhabitants per square mile (19/km²). Only Texas with 78.0 inhabitants/sq mi. (30/km²), Washington with 86.0 inhabitants/sq mi. (33/km²), and California with 213.4 inhabitants/sq mi. (82/km²) exceed the national average of 77.98 inhabitants/sq mi. (30/km²). Wyoming has the lowest population density in the West with only 5 inhabitants per square mile (2/km²).



With all due respect
The source for the illustrations and census figures is clearly referenced in the Demographics section itself as well as the External links section. For the convienience of those who don't have the time to do the reasearch the original sources, I've added the following table generated from my spreadsheet. All transcription errors are my own (mathmatical errors belong to Microsoft). CPret 17:46, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * While I try to assume good faith, one gets the impression you hold great disdain for the Census Bureau's defintion by reading the article, and that the article and statitics were created and compiled to go around the other article, possibly even to displace it. That is the POV, not including alternate defintions but the manner and tone in which you chose to do it. The caption included with the minority distribution maps is a good example of the POV, "These maps from the 2000 US Census highlight differences in population groups between East and West." It does not, it shows the national distribution of minorites. It highlight the difference between Ease and West in so much as it does the differences between north and south, and Maine and Kentucky. You have just admitted that it is original research you created the region's defintion and in compiled the statisics. It was unsourced as it did not say who adjusted the statistics. The census bureau is also not the source, you are because you compiled the statistics you use in the article, they compiled the statistics you used to compile yours based on you defintion not theirs. If National Geographic has done this, or more likely the Western Governor's Conference, which Oklahoma is not a member of, it would be acceptable from a respected third party source, but not by your or my doing. -JCarriker 23:53, Jun 5, 2005 (UTC)
 * I have to confess I understand little of what you are saying. I've changed "Adjusted statistics show the West in 2000" to read "Statistics from the 2000 United States Census show the seventeen states in the West". That should end any confusion. So far you have not objected to the accuracy of anything. POV and disdain remind my of an old lawyering gambit&mdash;if you don't have the facts, argue the emotion. Obfuscation and personal attacks fall in a similar vein. If you have found specific errors, let me know. I'll try to get you the page and paragraph of the source or change the entry. CPret 02:29, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC) PS. Please be patient. When I recover, I may return to regular contributing, but at present I do not always feel like researching topics. CPret 02:54, 9 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * Since the demographics section proved to be neither original research nor unsourced, and no POV issues were identified, I'm putting the section back in the main article for now. CPret 15:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't think there is an issue of original research here. Original research would be if CPret went out and conducted his own census or survey. Recombining legitimately gathered census data is not original research in the sense denigrated by Wikipedia policies. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:56, Jun 9, 2005 (UTC)

Food for thought


Some maps of how some reputable sources define the West. -JCarriker 07:20, Jun 10, 2005 (UTC)


 * NOAA
 * USGS
 * wegrowit.com
 * infowest.com
 * UT Library
 * rootsweb.com
 * State of South Dakota

Demographics compromise
I disagree about this not being original research, but as I am more concerned with NPOV, and in the interest of moving forward I'm proposing a compromise:

Include the total populations for the, cenusus defintion, the second tier defintion, and first tier defintion. I never had a problem with the facts about individual states (e.g. Texas 12% African-American), which used information directly.- JCarriker 04:21, Jun 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * If I understand that correctly, that you are saying that at the bottom of the chart we would give one line each to totals based on the different definitions of the region, that sounds reasonable (and informative). -- Jmabel | Talk 21:41, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Redirect
JCarriker has now merged a lot of this content to Western United States. It seems to me that the best thing to do would be either to turn this article into a redirect or to turn it into a disambiguation between that page and a new page dealing with "the West" is a cultural construct and myth. I'm going to leave at least a few days for comment before I act on this. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:23, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * It seems to mes that the best place to discuss the Western mythos indepth would be at Wild West. Which of course could be linked via Western United States or through a disambig. -JCarriker 16:32, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * Probably so, although if we do so, I suspect we will find ourselves adding some of the less wild side of the West, too. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:41, Jun 12, 2005 (UTC)
 * I totally disagree. I think maybe you are attempting to change the American West into an area defined simply by its geography. It isn't. The American West, both the United States and widely around the world, is an iconic region defined by its shared history as well as culture and geography. Not mentioning the romantic nature of the history and culture that turned it into such an icon would be detrimental to understanding the definition of the region. Also, I haven't read the references so I can't be sure, but I don't think your identification of the American West on the new map at Western United States is based on any common definition of the modern West. California and Texas only sometimes considered part of the American West!! And including Hawaii and Alask on equal footing! I'll have to see some credible sources to believe it. A better plan would be to redirect Western United States to Geography of the Western United States and dab that page back to American West. I don't know how you can fix the link at the US Census Bureau page that points to U.S. West without creating a new page though. People clicking links there will be looking for census information about the various census regions. And no one has addressed the categorization problem (Category:American West) that brought me here in the first place. DialUp 19:53, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * The primary motivaton in defining regions has always been, culture, history, and to a lesser extint geography&mdash; no one is trying to change this. The simple fact is that both the second and first tiers of states West of the Mississippi, are as much a part of the South (TX,LA,AR,OK,MO) or Midwest (MO,IW,KS,NE,SD,ND,MN) as they are the West. The second tier view is not is not widely accepted, no view of what constitutes the West is. The region most widely used in education today is the Census Bureau region, which is not exclusive to statistics&mdash; just go turn on the weather channel if you don't believe me, and I sincerly doubt its definition even approaches consensus.
 * As for your points:
 * The map:The map shows in red, states that area always, part of the West, and in orange states that may or may not be part of the West. Do you want to return to the Census defintion?
 * Romatic nature: You're right that mentioning Western romanticm is important in the article, so long as it only discusses and does not become an exaple of it as this article did.
 * Credible sources: According to the U.S. government Alaska and Hawaii are part of the West, Texas is not. Some think Texas be incuded, Alaska and Hawaii shouldn't that's equal footing. While the U.S. goverment isn't the end all and be all on the subjects, if it isn't a credible source of U.S. geography, I don't see how anyhting else will be.
 * link at the US Census Bureau- simple, change the link to Western United States and avoid the redirect, the Western United States is about the same subject as U.S. West.
 * Category: There is no point in discussing that until this has been decided. Discussion is planned for the future, go to WP:USR and join as a participant and you'll get a notice when formal discussion begins. Reading the project main page wouldn't hurt you in the debate here either.
 * It seems to me that the American West deals more with the idea of the region than the actuality of it. As such Western United States is the better title for the regional article. In the meantime I'll be setting on a bayou in Texas thinking about this issue.-JCarriker 08:05, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * I guess we disagree. By the way, I lived in Louisana for a while and enjoyed the area and the people, so enjoy yourself. I see this article as being about the iconic region known as the American West; which I feel is important enough to justify an article. I also think the Census Bureau’s West region deserves an article so those interested in Census Bureau data will have a place to go. If one wants to find out about the geographical nature of the USGS's Western United States, the article exists and properly so. If someone wants to write an article about NOAA's regions (whatever their names are), I think that's also a good idea. Weather regions would be suitable topics. But all those regional areas were developed for different purposes than describing the iconic region known as the American West. I don't think they do so or were ever intended to do so and wrong to use as such. Also, I think no consideration has been given to the views of all the editors on this article, to all those who linked pages here, to those of us who have used the categories (all who apparently think this is properly named and about an area they recognize), and to the million of people world-wide who recognize the region by that name and seek information. Also, numerous scholarly articles, books, and government sites use American West for this region. They can't all be wrong. One final request, could you identify exactly which sources you used to develop your map? The references on your new page are from this article and refer only the American West. I haven't read them yet and it would really help me if I don't have to go through them all. To be clear in what I'm asking, the sources you just now supplied don't seem to apply to the American West we're discussing, and I can't tell if you mean your new article to replace the American West article or to be a compilation of areas that could be described as Western United States.  DialUp 16:37, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * I think everybody is turning this into a bigger deal than it is. In all scenarios, all of the titles will be present either as redirects or as interlinked articles, and all the material will be in here some place (so anyone doing a search will find the material they are looking for). That is ultimately what matters.
 * I don't have nearly time to address everything that has been said here that I disagree with, but I do want to address one thing: Dialup writes "California and Texas only sometimes considered part of the American West!!" to which my answer is "yup, pretty much." Or, more accurately, only part of each state is generally considered part of the American West. Houston, San Antonio, and Dallas are not Western cities, although El Paso is. San Francisco, San Diego, and Los Angeles are Pacific Coast cities, which is another matter entirely. They are no more part of the culture of the Great Plains and Mountain States than Baltimore and Philadelphia are part of Appalachia. In particular, it is worth noting that California was already quite settled by Europeans when much of the land to its east was still basically Indian territory.
 * My own take: we should certainly have an article at Western United States that deals with the region broadly, and has a section discussing the various overlapping definitions and who uses them. And, JCarriker, I'm sorry but I don't have a strong opinion on exactly which other articles should also exist: as long as everything is interlinked, I don't seem to share your distress that some articles might possibly duplicate material to be found elsewhere. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:56, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)
 * Actually, its only subjects I don't want duplicated, if American West is changed to be what DialUp wants, I see no need for a redirect or disambig. -JCarriker 19:28, Jun 13, 2005 (UTC)

Western states
66.167.253.90 21:59, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC): I stumbled on this page while checking out which pages where linking to another article. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who sees this page as controversial. I think its wrong at its most basic level: the list of states in the infobox. ¿ Louisiana sometimes included with the west ? ¿ Kansas and Nebraska considered part of the west any time after the Civil War ? Sure, as the country's western boundary expanded they were at one time part of the West; at one time the "gateway to the west" was the Cumberland Gap. By that argument every state west of the Appalachian Mountains would be included. After the establishment of the Oregon Territory and the inclusion of the land from the Mexican Cession, the states of the Great Plains and the Midwest acquired new terminology for their region's identity. With all the varying terms for U.S. regions, both historical and present-day, with all of the dimensions implied by such terms (geography, demographics, and culture, for a start), I hope WikiProject U.S. regions grows in charter and participation enough to make sense of it all over time. For now, I'll leave this article be, given its controversy.
 * Actually, the reference I first gave you when you brought this up back in December of last year was published after the Civil War and referred to all states west of the Mississippi ( ISBN 0384506704 ). I spent several weeks reading books at home, at various libraries writing notes, and scrolling through rolls of microfilm before I wrote the article&mdash;all in an effort to properly identify those states identified as the American West and collect the appropriate facts. I believe them (the facts) mostly correct. We all have opinions, including me, but I tried to put the information together as a neutral and accurate reflection of the data. The seventeen states considered part of the American West came from that effort. It appeared the identification of those states arose during the early part of the Twentieth Century, after WWI but before the 30s, and has not changed significantly since then. However, since the time period was never explicly stated in any reference book, it wasn't included in the article. If you have credible sources that indicate otherwise, please include them and we can change the article appropriately. I wasn't looking specifically, so I can't be entirely sure, but, as I stated previously, I never ran across the term American West being used to refer to any state or region east of the Mississippi. A source which states the opposite would be helpful. CPret 15:28, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * 66.167.253.18 17:49, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC): Thanks for the serious reply. I am not the one who brought this up in December; my comment was posted the same day I first encountered this article.  I checked for the book you cite, and it's a reprint of a book published in 1867, within a couple of years of the Civil War; its too dated to be cited as a key source.  Given the existence of WikiProject U.S. regions, I still contend, as I noted at the end of my previous comment, that it would be a good use of that project's time to address this issue.  Confining myself to U.S. government and university websites, here are references that I hope demonstrate the two key points I am making: (1) the American West changed as the frontier and the U.S. western boundary changed, and (2) defining the American West as half of the Continental United States is not consistent with present-day use.  For the sake of army argument lets say present-day use starts 50 years after the Oregon Territory and the Mexican Cession.
 * Historical use
 * http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award99/icuhtml/fawhome.html
 * http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award97/codhtml/hawphome.html
 * http://www.archives.gov/research_room/research_topics/american_west/american_west.html
 * http://www2.tcu.edu/depts/prs/amwest/contents.html
 * Modern use
 * http://vulcan.wr.usgs.gov/Volcanoes/WesternUSA/description_western_volcanics.html
 * http://www.whitehouse.gov/firstlady/initiatives/womenofthewestopening.html
 * http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Social/frontier/SH4.htm
 * http://www.amwest.utah.edu/
 * http://www.wsu.edu/~amerstu/mw/
 * http://www.ohiou.edu/oupress/ghosttowns.htm
 * http://www.umkc.edu/lib/Instruction/MNLsubjguides/americanwest.htm
 * Thank you for your research. However, I assure you the Wikiproject is addressing this issue, I am it Coordinator. The WikiProject's policies of regional classification is part of what is in play here the other is our naming conventions. You should consider joining wikipedia, by registering a user name.-JCarriker 17:58, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
 * 66.167.139.50 04:43, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC): Good news, thanks. I'll throw in my two cents there in a moment...
 * Because both of you signed in the same unique style and both posted from covad.com, I assumed you were the same person. I apologize for the error. I understood you to mean you wanted information for the period following the Civil War. The best source for terms used during historical periods is that literature contemporary to the period. Modern sources will often use historical terms in a modern sense (and vice versa) without saying which term was actually used during the period.
 * 66.167.139.50 04:43, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC): FWIW, the use of four tildes to sign a comment is recommended practice within Wikipedia, unique only to those who try to follow Wikipedia conventions. :-)
 * I used many of the sites you listed to collect titles for the books I used, but some were new. Thanks. I was unable previously to locate some of the books listed and they may contain information I couldn't access. I don't recall using any of the sites as sources though. Editing standards for some sites are hard to determine and the sites often change with no explanation. The gov sites providing official information are the most accurate. Those providing general information are often not as rigorously controlled and seldom have an author identified; although they may have good information you can check through other sources. Sites providing original documents are also useful. I thought at first one of the sites you listed had information about American West used in historical times to apply to the Ohio Valley. Unfortunately it appears to use the modern designation to describe what modern historian sometimes call the trans-Appalachian West (the land lying generally between the Appalachians and the Mississippi) and no indication it was actually used during the era described.
 * That reminds me, if you are really looking for which states were considered part of the West after the Civil War, you may want to search for references to Trans-Mississippi West. That term gained some popularity around the turn of the twentieth century for the West&mdash;not to be confused with the Trans-Mississippi military district during the Civil War. That district was known as the Southwest. And for those who are determined that Texas is part of the South and never part of the West, Southwest identifed a region with links to the South but not actually considered the South proper. Southwest was used in that manner for most of the twentieth century (sometimes even now), but is also presently used as a substitute name for the Desert Southwest. CPret 14:49, 16 Jun 2005 (UTC)
 * 66.167.139.50 04:43, 17 Jun 2005 (UTC): Since JCarriker confirmed this is a topic for WikiProject U.S. regions, I'll move any further comments to there, noting only the following suggestion for a resolution that might be compatible with both our views. Since the American West changed over time, the topic is best left with either no maps, or a series of multiple maps.   Wikipedia can use an article about how the definition of the American West changed as the frontier moved west, with some states continuing to exemplify the American West culturally (e.g. Texas) which others (e.g. those in the Ohio River Valley]) were western states for only as long as they offered a frontier to European immigrants.
 * The project's talk page does not seem active, so I'll answer here. The previous areas that were called the west should be addressed in Trans-Appalachia; although the Ohio River Valley and Northwest Territory should both have expanded articles if someone gets around to writing them. It also appears that Trans-Mississippi West as a name for the American West came into vogue for a time following the Trans-Mississippi Exposition held in 1898. CPret 15:40, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Protection
I've protected this page for the time being. Please settle dispute on this talk page. --nixie 12:04, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Is this a page about the American West or not?
If this is about the American West, why is it under this title? If this is not the American West, why does it say it is? The American West is not some sort of fuzzy place. It's a pretty well defined area of study. See PBS The West, the producers, and the list of consultants (all very well respected in the field). And for those who seem to think there is no contemporary West, see the list of resources at The American West; A changing cultural Landscape from the Library of Congress. I have written sources as well. For those who continue to say Texas is not part of the West, see University of Texas, Spring 2005: The Contemporary American West "Course Description: In this course we will look at modern novels, short stories, and essays that have as their focus the nature of the American West, particularly Texas.  Some of the works examine the myth of the “wild west”—cowboys, Indians, outlaws, and the like.  Others deal with the vanishing West of legend.  Others more specifically offer comment on the nature of the modern American West." DHarjo 12:53, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Yes this is about the West, it is at this title because this title is were it belongs under naming conventions. There is a contemporary West, anything west of the Mississippi can and is included as part of the West in various regional models. Texas being west of the Misssissippi, is highlighted on the map and is also included in the articles' text. If I were you, I'd place PBS The West and The American West; A changing cultural Landscape right now and possibly move them to sources if they end up being used as such for the article. -JCarriker 13:10, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know why you've done what you've done but you need to think about fixing what you've broken. Naming conventions? I read those before I named my first article. Where are your sources that give the West this name? Various regional models? Where are your sources? If you don't furnish some pretty soon, I'll take a crack at fixing this subject. What I'll do is put it back under its proper name and take out all the unsourced stuff and replace it with what I have references for. DHarjo 03:01, 26 July 2005 (UTC) Maybe New England needs to be renamed to Northeastern corner of the United States. That makes a much sense. DHarjo 03:17, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * You have been given the information on naming conventions, alternate defintions, and duplicate articles in the past, did you not read read them. Regardless, after your childish Vfd nomination and your absurd New England comment, I see no reason to help you find information I have previously directed you to. By the way CPret I don't bow before threats. Your behavior is hurting your own cause; your ideas have been included and your attempts to suppress other views will not succeed here. -JCarriker 11:53, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
 * It took me a lot of effort to find out exactly what you're talking about. So you think it's all a plot. You think maybe your superior attitude is why you got bucked. No, it's all a plot. Your think maybe the first article I wrote might actually mean the first article I wrote. Of course not, it's all a plot. So you want to take this guy out and "whack him upside the head with one of those foam rubber bats". Maybe you should invite me to help. I'm a pretty tough guy. No, that wouldn't work. I would ask the fellow why he thinks what he does and tell him why I think what I do and maybe find out why we think different. That's unless I made it all up, then I might try to convince everyone that it's all a plot. Probably not, but that's just me. DHarjo 13:25, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Dance around this issue all you want sir. Foam-rubber bats are specifically used in therapy for stress relief not to force someone into doing something or cause damage, most people would understand such a reference. You have a standing invitation to help improve the article; but you must be respectful of differing views. You are CPret, sir, most people can see that by comparing your edit histories, writing style, and the tone of your arguement. -JCarriker 13:57, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

I came here because I thought I could help. Your answer was, "This has been discussed ad nauseum on the talk page, we already have good references supporting both arguements". You can say you have given references all you want, but I still can't find them. All I found was a bunch of argument. I don't think they exist. I don't get exactly what you're accusing me of but the New England comment was exactly the point. You want to change the name of the American West for no real reason I can tell. You're the one trying to buffalo people or you would talk to the facts. Talking about naming conventions, you won't provide references, but I will. Some of them I own but I copied the rest from the bibliography pages. I could give plenty more but I got tired of looking up isbns: DHarjo 13:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
 * Beck, Warren A; Historical Atlas of the American West; University of Oklahoma Press, Oklahoma, 1989. ISBN 0806121939
 * Haase, Ynez D; ibid.
 * Burns, Ken; The West; PBS Documentary, 1996. ISBN 078061352X (PBS The West
 * Ives, Stephen; ibid.
 * Deverell, William. A Companion to the American West; Blackwell Publishers, 2004. ISBN 0631213570
 * Lamar, Howard; The New Encyclopedia of the American West; Yale University Press, 1998. ISBN 0300070888
 * Library of Congress. The American West; A Changing Cultural Landscape
 * Milner II, Clyde A.; The Oxford History of the American West; Oxford University Press; Reprint edition, 1996. ISBN 0195112121
 * O'Connor, Carol A.; ibid.
 * Sandweiss, Martha A.; ibid.
 * Phillips, Charles; The Encyclopedia of the American West; Simon & Schuster, New York, 1996. ISBN 0028974952
 * Axlerod, Alan; ibid.
 * Ridge, Martin; The American West: The Reader; Indiana University Press, 1999. ISBN 0253212901
 * Nugent Walter T. K.; ibid.
 * Steffen, Jerome; The American West: New Perspectives, New Dimensions; University of Oklahoma Press, Oklahoma, 1982. ISBN 0806117443
 * Szasz, Ferenc Morton; Religion in the Modern American West; University of Arizona Press, 2002, ISBN 0816522456
 * Wilkinson, Charles; The American West: A Narrative Bibliography and a Study in Regionalism; University of Colorado Press, 1989. ISBN 0870811819
 * White, Richard; It's Your Misfortune and None of My Own: A New History of the American West; University of Oklahoma Press. Reprint edition, 1993. ISBN 0806125675

Okay...
...what is the problem? I am a neutral party, I don't even remember anymore why I have this page on my watchlist; I think I did a disambig or minor copyedit or something to it months ago. So what exactly is the issue here? There seems to be a lot of hand-waving over something I can't fathom. · Katefan0(scribble) 14:57, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Neutral? That’s not the feeling I got from your first answer. However, this article has at least three major to middling problems. The first is the name. If this article is really about the American West, it has a non standard title. I have furnished a lot of reference to show that and can furnish a whole lot more. I could have named my first article "A Native American fair in Oklahoma", instead of "American Indian Exposition". It would have been sort of correct but it could have been about a lot of other things too. So is naming this article Western United States. Second, and maybe the more serious, if this is really about the American West then the map and the first section are both incorrect and entirely misleading. As I told you before, there is absolutely no serious comprehensive study of the American West that ignores Texas north through the Dakotas and the Pacific coast states. Never, never, ever been done. I don't think the writer has any sources saying otherwise or he would have given them. I think the writer is just trying to foist his own personal view of the West on everybody else in order to fit his own personal view that Texas is only sometimes part of the West. Third, and more minor, is the second section which looks like an essay. Maybe it can be flagged someway so an editor who knows the subject can fix it. I wouldn't know where to start. Like I also told you before, I think the "cite your sources" statement is just hot air. It looks to me like anyone can write anything with out giving any proof and can talk anyone into believing it. If you really want to find out about this subject, you might want to read up on it. Reading one book won't make you an expert, but you might try the Oxford history book listed above, It's as good as any and better than most. If you don't want to read such a big book, you might try getting The American West: A Twentieth Century History by Malone and Etulain (ISBN 0803230931). It's a lot shorter but only deals with the 17 most western states. DHarjo 13:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)


 * Sir, perhaps you are unaware that everyone knows that you, DHarjo, are a sockpuppet of CPret, so please quit pretending you have no knowledge of previous conversations. I have provided you with links, freely accessable to anyone, to other defintions on June 10, 2005 at Talk:American West, you ignored them. Before that I provided you with links that showed your interpretation of WP:USR policy was wrong and that proved your memory of the content of U.S. West was incorrect, you ignored them as well. Yes I do object to Texas, California, Oklahoma and others being forced into a region they are sometimes excluded from and don;t always identify with. I also object to your permanent exclusion of Alaska and Hawaii and to your attempts to disregard the most well known defintion of the Mississippi. While I have my suspicions about your intentions I have always endeavored to word them on these two talk pages in a passive and uncertain tone; rather than the ad hominem personal attacks you have launched against others and myself. To refresh your memory sir you are the one who knowingly created a duplicate article condemning the original article in a POV manner&mdash;throughout the duplicate article, as well as nominating an article in bad faith for deletion, after you saw you weren't going to get your way. You have also continually ignored evidence that contradicted you and refused to engage in debate, prefering circular arguements. Your violations of policy and standing threat against this article, leave me no alternative than to seek help from the rest of the community in dealing with you. -JCarriker 16:05, July 29, 2005 (UTC)

You can repeat lies all you want but they'll never become true that way. I guess we can all consider the source. Since you claim to be old enough for college, I'm going to give you a piece of professional advice. You need to take a class in what ever your school calls its "Professional Ethics" course. If you do in the real world what you're doing here you can end up in serious trouble. Fired, in court, or worse. Even journalists claim some ethics and standards for sources. One of these days you're going to find out that no matter what you know about a thing, there a tons of people that know more. There's no crime in admitting you made a mistake. Are you going to fix the map and the name or do you want me to? Here's another list of references for you. I got some of them from the American West page, but you ignored them over there. DHarjo 04:34, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Bonnifield, Paul. The Dust Bowl: Men, Dirt, and Depression. University of New Mexico Press, Alquequerque, New Mexico, 1978. ISBN 0826304850.
 * Hamil, Harold. Colorado Without Mountains, A High Plains Memoir. The Lowell Press, Kansas City, Missouri, 1976. ISBN 0913504335
 * Malone, Michael P.; Etulain, Richard W. The American West: A Twentieth Century History. University of Nebraska Press, Lincoln, Nebraska, 1989. ISBN 0803230931
 * Richardson, Albert D. Beyond the Mississippi. 1867, Johnson Reprint Corp, reprint edition, 1967. ISBN 0384506704
 * Utley, Robert M. The Story of the West. Smithsonian Institute, Hydra Publishing LLC. ISBN 0789496607
 * Winther, Oscar Osburn; Van Orman, Richard A. A Classified Bibliography of the Periodical Literature of the Trans-Mississippi West (1811-1967). Greenwood Press Reprint, 1973. ISBN 0837164753
 * Wishart, David J. Encyclopedia of the Great Plains. University of Nebraska Press, 2004. ISBN 0803247877
 * Worster, Donald. Dust Bowl: The Southern Plains In The 1930s. Oxford University Press, 2004. ISBN 0195174895
 * Worster, Donald. Under Western Skies: Nature and History in the American West. Oxford University Press, reprint edition 1994. ISBN 0195086716


 * Sir, your behavior is most uncalled for. Your views have been included in the article; you must learn to accept that other people and other sources (examples of which you have been provided with on this page) have different opinions of what constitute the West. No one has tried to suppress your views, please do not try to suppress other views. Your personal attacks against me only hurt your own cause, I urge you to consider not making them in the future. -JCarriker 05:11, August 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * Peeking in for the first time, I'm not entirely sure what Dhjaro is going on about, nor am I certain what precisely he the books he cites are supposed to prove (I do not recall Worster's Dust Bowl, for example, trying to define the West geographically, but then it's been a while since I read it). As another caveat, I'm not familiar with the discussions as to naming conventions, so I won't address that particular one. I'm just looking at what we have here at the article, Western United States. I could be off-base, and if I am, please enlighten me.
 * Looking at the article, I think what it seems to be lacking is a historical perspective. Definitely in the beginning the West was everything west of the Mississipi, and Texas was/is considered to be both South and/or West at particular points in its history, and even today has an odd amalgamation of both Southern and Western culture depending on where, geographically, you look (Neil Foley's The White Scourge: Mexicans, Blacks, and Poor Whites in Texas Cotton Culture talks about this to some extent). Of course, the current Census Bureau definition excludes certain states, but that's not always been true. If I may be bold enough to suggest that to try and satisfy all sides, we should go into some more detail about how the perception (and definition) of the West in American culture has changed over the last century and a half or so. --khaosworks 05:41, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your insight a great deal. I would love to see the article include something of that nature. It soo nice to have someone on the talk page, that offers a productive dialogue. Thank you, very much. -JCarriker 05:47, August 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * To add a bit more; perhaps some of the deadlock is because there is confusion between both sides about whether when we say "West" we mean a discrete geographical region; a place defined by particular relationships between people and the land and the government and each other; or a "frontier" process ala Frederick Jackson Turner. Perhaps what we need to do is also to try and define what the parameters of what this article is about. --khaosworks 06:13, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Khaosworks, sounds entirely reasonable. I'd also add, as an aside to DHarjo:  I find it difficult to take your arguments seriously when they are peppered with incivility and personal attacks. &middot; Katefan0(scribble) 07:15, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * To clarify I believe the article should be primarily eximplified by the areas that can be considered the modern West (everything west of the Mississippi) with a stong emphasis on the Censuse Bureau region with the stipulation that some in the Pacific states consider themselves in a region apart from the West. The article should also cite that TX-ND and LA-MN are not always considered part of the west either. The article should also touch on the expansive nature of the West and its evolution but leave most that material to Manifest Destiny and American Old West with link to them include in this article. In short, I have no problem with the mention of any of the pink states in the map being mentioned as being part of the West, but it should be stated that they are not always considered as being part of the West. Emphasis should be placed on the core states of the West which are red. -JCarriker 07:26, August 4, 2005 (UTC)


 * Perhaps you could get a start on a sandboxed "Definitions" section that we can all edit. --khaosworks 07:47, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll do that tommorrow. I should already be in bed. Again thank for your help. -JCarriker 07:50, August 4, 2005 (UTC)
 * Done. See: talk:Western United States/sandbox -JCarriker 18:23, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Khaosworks, you're right saying that regional works like Worster's Dust Bowl don't set boundaries for the greater region. I listed it because it shows that the Plains states have a common history and culture and that the Colorado and New Mexico sections can't be separated from the identical sections in Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and Nebraska. Or even the Dakotas. They are all part of the greater West. Worster's book is probably not a real good example since it looks to me more like some sort of partisan political book than a history book. White's It's Your Misfortune and None of My Own identifies the West on page 4: "The geographical boundaries of the American West are not naturally determined; they were politically determined. The American West is that contiguous section of the continent west of the Missouri River acquired by the United States, beginning with the Louisiana Purchase of 1803; continuing through the acquisition of Texas, the Oregon Territory, and the Mexican Cession in the 1840s; and ending with the 1854 Gadsden Purchase of the lands between the Gila River and the present Mexican boundary." This is the standard area. The states from Texas through the Dakotas and California through Washington are always included. The few references that link the western states together without historical or cultural ties also include Alaska and Hawaii but even they always include the 17 western states. The Oxford book is one of those. I haven't ever read the book on Cotton Culture so I can't say what it might mean. I did live in a lot of different cotton camps from Oklahoma to California when I was young. I didn't see anything I think of as Southern about it but I was very young. The part about the Mexicans is right though. Probably half the pickers in the camps were from Mexico. Very few blacks though. The naming conventions at wikipedia seem pretty clear to me. If there's some sort of other convention, I didn't find it. The first list of references I gave were mainly to show the standard name for the region. I really have no hope that people here will ever pay any attention to references. DHarjo 05:20, 11 August 2005 (UTC)
 * The White Scourge focuses mainly on the history of Mexican and Chicanos in Texas, but Foley does make the argument somewhere in there that different parts of Texas are more reminiscent of the South and of the West, and other parts more West than South. But be that as it may, historians don't even agree on what constitutes the West, Richard White notwithstanding. Turner saw it as a process, a frontier. Webb, who wanted a region, simply drew the line at the 98th meridian (his definition is usually thought of these days as flawed). Others talk about the West in terms of aridity, others point to extremes of weather. Still there are others who see the West as both place and process, as the population expanded from the East Coast onwards. Be that as it may, I think it would be useful to simply present the differing definitions rather than exclude any of them, i.e. Historians have tried to define the West these various ways, but the Census Bureau demographically sets the boundaries here. I apologize for not having written up what I was promising to write up, but you will appreciate that I want to get it right, and that means spending time (and a bit of research to figure out who is saying what) on it which I don't have right now. Does this approach, however, sound reasonable to everyone? --khaosworks (talk• contribs) 05:32, August 11, 2005 (UTC)


 * That's fine with me. -JCarriker 08:46, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Turner's essay (The Significance of the Frontier in American History) points out that the census bureau said that by 1890 the frontier was gone. With the settlement of Oklahoma and Indian territories in the 1890s and the end of the Indian wars in South Dakota in 1890, most historians say about the same. What it means is that after 1890 there was no change to the borders of the West because of westward migration. After 1840 the West was really settled as much from west to east as from east to west anyhow. If this article is supposed to be about the American West, the problem with using the Census map as a base is that you would have to show a reference that the Census Bureau intends this to be a description of the American West and that authorities on the West use it that way. I would use as a base the most common map of the West (PBS-The West) since these are the states agreed on by most authorities and by the government agency assigned to the West (Bureau of Reclamation regions). If you don't like White, try the maps in most of the other references. Some show more states but I don't think any show less. Of course all of this is only true if this article is really about the American West. Here's a few more references that might help since some people want only online stuff. DHarjo 04:47, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
 * Environmental Protection Agency. Rangelands Information. (17 August 2005)
 * Harper's Weekly. The American West: 1857-1916. (17 August 2005)
 * Hawgood, John A. America's Western Frontiers: The Exploration and Settlement of the Trans-Mississippi West. Alfred A. Knoph, Inc., New York, 1967.
 * Nash, Gerald D.; Etulain, Richard W. The Twentieth Century West: Historical Interpretations. University of New Mexico Press, 1988. ISBN 0826311164
 * National Archives. Photographs of the American West: 1861-1912. (17 August 2005)
 * University of Nebraska Press. Gallery of the Open Frontier. (17 August 2005)
 * Zeman, Scott C. Chronology of the American West: From 23,00 B.C.E. through the Twentieth Century. ABC-CLIO, 2002. ISBN 157606207X

Colours and appearance
I have made a proposal to change the colour of the map box, please see the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject U.S. regions --Qirex 05:38, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

westernisms
i'm doing research on american western english. this has led me to doing research on various native american indian languages spoken in the american west. this is going to take me a while... Gringo300 10:58, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Polygamy
As was talked about here by, the practice of polygamy was never legal in Utah as both the copy of this article and the graphic with Utah in red seem to imply. I do think that this article should mention the history of polygamy in what became Utah, but until someone writes a nice NPOV paragraph I'm going to remove ", and the only one where polygamy was once legal" and the graphic Image:Map of USA highlighting polygamy.PNG as they are both factualy incorrect. &mdash;A 07:02, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

No State Income Tax
Living in Massachusetts, we learn constantly that New Hampshire has no state income or sales tax (the property taxes are through the roof though). --Quintucket 05:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Americans Wests
A good set of books on geographic and historical regions of the United States is D.W. Meinig's "The Shaping of America", check it out at your library. Volume 3, "Trancontinental America", focuses on the West. Meinig's theme is to talk about the American West as so multi-centered as to be better called American Wests. Although each sub-region is in the west and is in a larger sense part of the American West, they each have distinct histories and different physical geographies. Thus as a region, the West is much more a collection of sub-regions than is, say, New England. The sub-regions Meinig delineates are: California (meaning Gold Rush northern and central California, urban center of San Francisco); Southern California (urban center Los Angeles); Oregon and the Pacific Northwest (Oregon Trail roots; urban center first Portland, later Seattle (and Vancouver BC if you step over the border), and inland, Spokane); Zion/Deseret/Utah (roots in Mormon exodus; urban center Salt Lake City); New Mexico (roots in Spanish colony; urban center first Santa Fe, later Albuquerque); the Colorado Complex (including southern Wyoming; roots in Gold Rush; urban center Denver); and "The Rest of the West", with sub-sub-regions of Nevada, Boise Basin / Idaho, Montana, Wyoming & Black Hills; Arizona.

Just a recommendation of a book that might help people with this clunky article. Pfly 03:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Strange map
This article has a really strange map. Can anyone give the source? BookCover 15:46, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * This article has many maps, but you can find information about any image in Wikipedia by clicking on it.- choster 16:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I try to furnish where the images come from. Image:US map-West.PNG does not indicate where one might go to see the original. For certain, it is not from one of the standard reference works (such as Historical Atlas of the American West). BookCover 00:46, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * "I made this -JCarriker 17:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)" - choster 18:42, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Map is fine, but...
In which contexts is one likely to see Illinois and Wisconsin described as located in the Western United States? //Big Adamsky 02:37, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Illinois, Wisconsin, and most of Minnesota are definitely not western by almost any definition. All of these states are closely tied into the Great Lakes region, which is culturally, geographically, and otherwise completely distinct from the great American west. Wisconsin and Illinois are especially conspicuous given that they are east of the Mississippi, but no more "western" than any other state east of that river. Triphook 23:44, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * These maps are designed to incorporate multiple regional defintions of what the West should be. Minnesota is there because parts of it are west of the Mississippi, and at present the WikiProject that issues the maps does not partially shade states for logistical problems. Wisconsin and Illinois were included because one or several sources considered them to be in the West. I will try to find that source for you, meanwhile if you want the map changed please make a request to change it on the WikiProject U.S. regions maps talk page. Thanks. -JCarriker 19:28, 2 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I can see Illinois, Wisconsin, and Minnesota (although I don't agree with them) but under what definition is Louisiana considered the West? I don't think it's ever been considered that.  The same goes for Arkansas, but less so.  Papercrab 23:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

WTF?
Why are California, Oregon, Washington, Alaska, and Hawaii only striped on the map? These states are the 5 most western states in the Union!


 * I agree. I don't think any significantly used definition excludes the Pacific states. The inland region is the Mountain West. --JWB 17:09, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * If anyone objects to making the West Coast states solid on the map and listed as an unequivocal part of the West in the article, please discuss now. --JWB 23:57, 23 July 2007 (UTC)


 * The only good argument I could see is that it's done to keep the Pacific Coast states a separate region from the rest of what is considered "West." The same reason the Northwest is probably not considered part of the Northern United States.  Frank12 00:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)


 * There are separate names Pacific Coast States and Rocky Mountain States for exactly this reason. The use of "West" excluding the West Coast is something I have never heard or seen anywhere.


 * The Northwest is traditionally part of "the North", which is defined on Civil War lines. Usually when the West is made a separate region or regions, the Northeast and Midwest are separated too.--JWB 02:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Politics
Could the "politics" section perhaps be made into its own page/entry? I don't feel that it really fits into the page/entry very well (perhaps it just needs additional development). Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.211.246.168 (talk) 02:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Demographic Changes
Two things I did that I feel important are 1)added the official designation of the West by the Census Bureau and 2) moved these to the top. I am not endorsing one designation of Western states over another, but believe that that the Census's definition is worth mention Otherwise I mushed together Demographic article, there probably is a better way to do it. The only thing I sugest is keeping the population data near the top, since this is how articles for the other areas of the US are set up. Finally, some statistics are from 2000. If someone has more up to date information, it would be nice. Homersmyid 01:25, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Main image
I know the main image features the "West" defined by the U.S. Census Bureau, but it seem sto me that other states should be striped, namely Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska and North and South Dakota. These states, while not specifically defined by the Census Bureau as such, are often included in the definition of the "West", and I believe therefore should be presented at least as striped. Rai - me 20:06, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
 * I have decided to be bold and re-add the original image. The article clearly mentions states such as Texas and Oklahoma to be a part of the Southwest, which are sometimes included in the general "West". By many classifications, all states west of the Mississippi River are a part of the West. This appears to be the only United States geographic region article that uses the officially defined U.S. census map as a sole main image. In other regional articles, the census image is used along with a "reginal definitions vary..." image, so I do not see why this article should not also do so. Rai - me

00:25, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Texas Division
Speaking as a native Texan, there is distinct division between West Texas and East Texas. West Texas is usually considered the Southwest by Texans and East Texas the South. For example, San Antonio is Southwestern city, however Houston is a Southern city.--Thenderson1 23:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)


 * As a fellow native Texan I agree with you to a large extent. My quibble is that the division lines are a bit more complicated than a simple east/west gradient (although again, I agree with your basic point). I would say that, with the exception of the trans-pecos area of West Texas, as well as South Texas (of which San Antonio is part), other areas of "West Texas" are not the "Southwest" in the sense that are New Mexico and Arizona.  A goodly part of western areas of the state were originally settled by Anglo-Southerners, and Southern culture remains a dominating influence in many ways (voting patterns, dialect, social conservatism, the predominance of the Southern Baptist church, etc.).  Culturally, large areas of West Texas are something of a blend of South and Southwest. "Western South" is probably the best description ... except that the term is kind of awkward and isn't often understood nor widely used. TexasReb 15:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Lol. Um..have to disagree West Texas is NOT Southern in any way, shape or form. 2 words: El Paso. I don't really know, but most of the time, as a person from East Texas, I almost think of West Texas AS New Mexico. The climate is too similar for West Texas not to be a part of the Southwest. Oh and San Antonio is West Texas. You have to remember us youngsters took Texas History...twice. Thenderson1 02:35, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Your points are well taken, but I still have to disagree. Oh sure, topographically and climatically, West Texas has a strong resemblence to the desert Southwest. Culturally and historically speaking however, it does not.  And it is those terms, not landscape and climate --  that regions are usually defined and perceived.  The reason being that West Texas was settled overwhelmingly by people from East Texas and other parts of the Southern United States.  It is that culture that dominates and it is reflected in the domination of the Southern Baptist Church, dialect and idiom, Confederate monuments on courthouse lawns, etc.  None of this is to be found in the "true Southwest" of New Mexico and Arizona (and parts of other western states).


 * Now to be sure, there is a large Hispanic influence that tends to be more like the SW, but this is a relatively recent phenomenon (and no telling how much is illegal). That is why I say some blend of the South and Southwest, with the Anglo culture decidely the former.  As final note, for what it is worth, in sociological surveys, a majority of West Texans consider themselves to live in the South and to be Southerners.  Not to the degree of those in the eastern half of Texas to be sure, but a majority nonetheless.


 * Anyway, a little good disagreement between Texans is always fun and informative! :-) TexasReb (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)


 * as a Texan myself i like to consider most of Texas as The SOUTH, not the west. Though west Texas is far more southwest. but Texasreb i agree with you.(I'm northeast Texan)   —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ultrasonic128 (talk • contribs) 05:39, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Lists of People
Should I add a list of people who are from the west? (unknown editor)

No.--Atemperman (talk) 20:48, 21 June 2009 (UTC)