Talk:Western culture/Archive 1

The glory that was Greece... blah blah blah
I am sure there will be many additions. The Roman chapter and especially law needs to be developed. WHEELER 18:26, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This page concentrates heavily on greece. As it happens, western (style) culture appears to be older than greece, and to have been subject to more influences than are listed here so far. At some point this article might need some rewriting. :-)

See among others:


 * Possibly Vedic civilization. (Listed here mainly due to Vedic_mathematics )
 * Spring and Autumn Period in China.
 * Early Muslim philosophy, which can be said to be a follow on from Greek philosophy

Also much about western culture is influenced strongly by, well western philosophy. The most important of these would probably have to be Western philosophy -> Epistemology -> Empiricism -> Philosophy of science. This is a strong driving force. Advances in western-style thought appear to usually have something to do with improvements to the philosophy of science.(see also: Aristoteles, Ijtihad )

Western culture next steps
For a possible projected future for western culture, see also: Technological singularity

Kim Bruning 12:00, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

Origin influences
"Western Culture is composed of a triad of influences: ancient Greek culture, ancient Roman culture and Christianity." - That's a hell of a sweeping conclusion to present as the first line of an encyclopedia entry. Just discussing the premise would probably be several doctorates-worth of material. Off the top of my head - what about Babylon? Egypt? the Germanic cultures? Islam? Judaism? India? And has nothing of note happened in the past 2000 years? (the Enlightenment? The Reformation? Romanticism? the Industrial Revolution? modern democracy? The nation state?) Starting with a descriptive point would be a good beginning. How about: "'Western Culture' is a term applied loosely to those cultures which are predominately European in origin." But even that's dubious - 'western' is used so loosely to mean 'democratic' or 'industrialised' or 'Christian' or 'rich' or 'non-Islamic' or 'non-Soviet' that the boundaries are messy as hell - is Russian culture 'western'? what about Brazil? And there's the article's emphasis on philosophy and science, rather than the arts, clothing, food - why? It's not an article on 'western philosphy'. The entire article strikes me as wrong-headed and I think the best thing would be to rewrite it from scratch, rather than try and edit it as it stands. Harry R 10:42, 10 May 2004 (UTC)

This is a general article Harry. Babylon and Eygpt influenced the west but through Greece. People of the Western world did not read babylonian or Egyptian texts. They read the Greeks. If you want to write an article of the influences of Eygpt and Babylon on the Greeks go ahead. German culture is influenced by all these confluences of Greek, Roman and Christianity.WHEELER 18:42, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Harry add setions and spin offs.WHEELER 18:42, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Two words. Hellenistic syncretism. AndyL 22:08, 12 May 2004 (UTC)

Am strongly against pretending that Western Culture 'is' Greece, Rome and Christ (important though they are) There are many important developments since then - so much is wrapped up in it. The Land 11:27, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Pick up any book on Western Civilization and you will read the term "Judeo-Christian Culture". Or "Greco-Roman" Culture. This article explains it all. Read any Edith Hamilton? Read the Founding Fathers? All Europeans will say the same thing!WHEELER 17:04, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

I'm European. I wouldn't. Harry R 18:05, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

I am a European and one with (for what it's worth) a degree in the social sciences. Greek and Roman influences are important for sure. They aren't everything. Materialism, industrialism and attempts at sexual liberation are key characteristics of the Western world today which weren't really present in ancient Greece or Rome. The influence of Christianity is complex - for most of history Christianity was the Catholic Church but arguably the most important event in Western history was the Reformation; not to mention the links between Protestantism and industrialisation (see Max Weber). Agree strongly with the views of Harry and Kim above. The Land 18:10, 13 May 2004 (UTC)

Victorian white-washing
There is also a lot of 19th century Victorian era Public School (which were themseves modeled on Ancient Greek ideas) stuff in the ideas expressed in the term Western culture in this article; that enlightenment is Greek and Roman (and we have to begrudgingly include Christianity to keep the vicar happy). When Rome falls the whole world is in a dark age (Lets ignore the Eastern Empire and pretend it does not exist), which only ends as we crawl out of the dark ages into the Renaissance. 20th Century archaeology and historical research have been shrinking the Dark Ages and blurring the boundaries of the Renaissance. Most Victorians argued that all democratic ideas/ideals came from Greece. But a pound for a penny that English democratic values have a much stronger root in the way that North German tribes organised themselves. That if no text from Ancient Greece had survived, then via concepts that created the Witan, democracy would have developed, it really had little to do with Ancient Greece.

In the section entitled Spread of Western Culture there is a paragraph which starts "All non-Western indigenous societies which encountered Western culture underwent massive and fundamental changes as a consequence." Well yes if the indigenous societies was early Iron or stone age, but is this true for all of the Muslim World, China and India? India perhaps more than the other two, but it was and is a 2 way street. I'm off to drive my juggernaut back to my bungalow in Blighty, where I will change into my silk pyjamas and have tea in a porcelain cup while I eat my potatoes and do my maths homework without using Roman numerals and smoke nice pipe of tobacco.

The things mentioned in the last paragraph are mostly commodities, but it is a very Victorian idea to say that the flow of ideas were all from the Imperial centre to the far flung reaches of the Empire. It is of course a very convenient theory because it held to justify West European Empires. The Victorians excused their empires by arguing that they were bringing enlightenment to the "poor benighted heathen[s]". (Kipling)

However just as trade flows in both directions, so do ideas. For example in the area of military technology, inventions came from outside Europe which had huge impacts on Western Society and culture. Gunpowder and the stirrup to name but two.

So I think this article would be improved if an acknowledgement was made that that Western Culture is a synthesis of many ideas from many sources and that western global trade acted as a catalyst in disseminating those snthesised ideas with Western Europe as a central cleaning house. This meant the ideas had the larger, faster impact on Western Europe so that is why they are known by the lable "Western culture". Philip Baird Shearer 10:56, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
 * I think this article would be improved if an acknowledgement was made that Western culture wears blue jeans, combat boots, and a Led Zeppelin T-shirt. --Tysto 05:37, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

In the section Spread of Western Culture
"Outside Europe, Western culture made it strongest inroads in North America", North America includes Mexico and a number of other Latin American Countries. I think in the context of this paragraph North America should be replaced with the USA and Canada. But Is the sentence true? I don't think so! What about Australia and New Zealand?
 * this sentence makes no sense at all. saying that USA and Canada have more penetration of the western culture is a fallacy. If by "western world" you mean "northern european" than it's ok. but some latin american countries have succeeded much more than the anglo-saxon american ones in becoming copies of their originating societies. that is the case with Brazil (portuguese colony) and Colombia (Spain) for instance. And by that I don't mean just architecture, language and religion, but something far more important: institutions201.78.181.196 01:59, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

A mention should be made of South Africa in this section.

There is a also a danger that this section is English Language biased. For example is Argentina less influenced by Western culture than some regions of Europe?Philip Baird Shearer 10:56, 26 May 2004 (UTC)

Someone added the remarks of Western culture is marked by Imperialism and slavery. Islam is marked by this, China is marked by this and India are all marked by this. This is not encyclopaedic material but comments. Please refrain from commentaries.

Another comment made was that Education was for the privelidged few. Come on, All parents that could afford it paid for it. Horace's Father was a Freed slave and paid for Horace's education. Practically all Athenian children had an education. The Sophists gave freely to all who paid them and Socrates did it for free. WHEELER 16:46, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Most of north american seems to think that they are the main representants of western culture. They arrogantly exclude latin-americans from western civilisation (in fact latin-america is as musch westerner (of european based culture) than US and Canada. Maybe more in the case of Argentina or Uruguay. "western culture" is not only NORTH EUROPEAN (for america, WASP anglo-saxon to be more precise), but also latin, hellenic, slav and some other cultural groups.


 * I agree with this. How can this article ignore latin america (latin = roman!)? Even if Latin America has strong pre-columbus influences, the dominant groups and official languages are European-derived. Otherwise, should the Norse be mentioned as European cultures that were subsumed by "the West"? Also, I think the section on the colonization of the USA shows a slight anti-western bias (relentless, land-hungry). I'm no expert, nor am I familiar with this page, so I'll leave the editing to others.


 * AdamRetchless 04:54, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

POV
Now, this article suffers from a Mediterranean/Classic POV, and I am adding such a label. There is no denying the heavy and important classic and Judeo-Christian heritage in Western culture. BUT, where is the influence of the Celtic, Slavic and Germanic cultures, that the bulk of the European population started out with?

To pick one example we could take the Germanic influence on Western culture. The Germanic Common law was dominant North of the Alps and the Loire during the Middle Ages. Without the institution of Germanic kingship and its tradition Western monarchy and Western history would have taken a completely different route. What about the democratic foundations in institutions such as tings and Witenagemots? The parliamentary systems (houses of parliament and their counterparts in other West European countries) from the Middle ages and onwards are more indebted to them than to Athenian democracy.--Wiglaf 07:56, 29 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No such thing as Germanic common law. Common law is uniquely Celtic. German contributions to Western Civilization have mostly been in organizational skills, but not common law. Jcchat66 19:39, 22 June 2006 (UTC)


 * per this user's comments, it seems like he/she really has a problem with limited geographic scope. Since there's a tag for that, I'm rm'ing the POV tag and replacing with the proper one. Feco 23:16, 27 May 2005 (UTC)
 * And I've added it to the talk page, since it is a message intended for editors. &mdash; mark &#9998; 13:52, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Christianity, Judaism, and Western culture
The relationship between Christianity, Judaism, and Western culture ought to be presented. For instance the questions: Do Jews in the Western world have a culture other than "Western culture"? Is Western culture instrinsically Christian? Is Christianity intrinsically Western in origin/nature? I'll try to elucidate when I'm able to come back and edit the page...--Dpr 19:25, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't care about origins
...I care about characteristics: blue jeans, expensive cars, casual sex, flush toilets, Shakespeare, Hollywood, and rock & roll. That's Western culture. Groove on that, Poindexter. --Tysto 05:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I care about more universal characteristics. Western civilization has gone on for more than two thousand years. All the stuff you mention are ephemera of modern western culture. DonSiano 14:53, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * But this is not a history article. The article on New York City doesn't dwell on the universal characteristics of New York City over the last three centuries; it describes modern NYC and mentions its history secondarily with a link to History of New York City. The article on United States Navy doesn't dwell on the universal characteristics of the US Navy over the last two centuries; it describes the Navy today and mentions its history secondarily with a link to History of the United States Navy. What we need, I think, is History of Western culture. Besides, if you think flush toilets and Hollywood movies are going away anytime in the next few centuries, you are seriously mistaken; and everything in my list is already at least 100 years old except for rock & roll. --Tysto 19:15, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I have to agree with Tysto. This article should focus on the (relatively) contemporary manifestations of Western culture. - IstvanWolf 23:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

South Africa
The discussion of the status of south africa, while not incorrect, is jaringly out of place in the article so near the start. This sort of discussion (what is covered geographically is covered in the Western World article, so it, if it is to appear at all should be in that article. I am removing it for that reason. DonSiano 14:57, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Eastern Europe and Orthodox Christianity
Much of this article uses Christian heritage as a guiding concept for inclusion, and communism as a guiding concept for exclusion. Although a recent development, communism was all but a 74-year (or less) blip on the map. Given the Christian heritage in many of these areas dates to 1000+ years - it would make sense Ukraine, Belarus, European Russia, et al be included, but with qualifications, of course. After all, is St. Petersburg, Kyiv, Odesa, etc, not western cities? If Orthodox Christianity (with its ties to Byzantium) is to be excluded, Christianity as an organziating concept should be denoted in some respect to Catholic and Protestant Christianity. Ideas? --Yakym 04:12, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I wondered when this question came up. Because I was the one who "invented" that map, led me explain. My reasons why I excluded most of the Eastern European areas was mainly not because of communism, it's gone anyway, and as you pointed out only existed for a short period of time. Of course they are reasons to include those, but they are also reasons against it. This is how I see it: The Western World initially begun in Greece, where it was extended to the East by Alexander the Great, until the Greek Empire in the East eroded. Than it was adopted by the Romans, who extended the Western ideas throughout their Empire. After the fall of Rome, the successor states and Christianity spread it across Central and Northern Europe, while in the East and North Africa it fell to the Arabs. Then, at about 1054 through the Great Schism, the Western World was effectivly split in half. On one side the catholic world and the orthodox on the other. So, in a historical sense, the East surely was part of the West until 1054, and it might be so again today, but for a significant time (~1000 years) it was not. The important events in the Western World after 1054, like the crusades, fall of constatinopel, age of exploration, reformation, 30-years war, rennaissance, lepanto, the turks in front of vienna, age of enlightenment etc. were events that almost exclusivly effected the countries I highlighted in blue. I included the baltic states as well, because the for long periods of time they weren't russian. They first became russian in the 18th century. During the middle ages they were either German, Polish or Scandinavian influenced. Also mostly catholic and protestant in origin. I admit the map is far from perfect. I would prefer one that shows the development ot the West through the ages, for instance at some given dates, like 1000 BC, 0, 1000 AD, 1500 AD, 1700 AD, etc., but that might be overkill. --Lucius1976 18:06, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Three distinct civilizations emerged after the fall of Greco-Roman Civ, the Western Civilization which does not include any Eastern European nations, Islamic Civilization, and Russian Civilization. All of them inherited certain aspects of Greco-Roman culture, but all in very different ways do to other historical events. Russian Civ attempted to maintain the absolute monarchism of Rome (also a Germanic trait) and never developed concepts of freedom or property rights, and seperated itself from Hebraic influence from the outset, such as contempt for slavery (The very word slave comes from Slav). Most likely this was the best system to protect themselves from the constant swarm of Turks and Mongols. Islam Civ converged Hebraic and Persian culture, going on a different path, but never considered removing slavery from its culture, thus the Barbary Corsairs up into modern times. But the Western Civ, mostly centered around England and France and Spain, embraced Hebraic influences of free will and property rights (reinforced by the Britons), contempt for slavery, and planted the seeds of modern freedoms and democracies. Look up Richard Pipes for more on this. Germanic culture was always pulled back and forth between two major civilizations, but is motly part of the Russian sphere of influence, though they probably would strongly disagree as they are now trying to be more Western. Jcchat66 20:01, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Neutral point of view
The two sections marked POV - have been marked because alot of these ideals stated as "purely" western are opinion. Personal freedom, etc. are based on Western interpretations of what personal freedom, etc. actually are.

Further, the "technologies" etc. attributed to western culture is debatable - particularly concerning certain developements by Western countries based on technology adopted from non-Western regions.


 * I don't think that this article can ever become POV. The perception of what belongs to the west has changed dramatically throughout time. The culture that is called western nowadays had different names in earlier centuries.


 * The Greek described themselves as Greek and they felt being influenced by ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia.


 * The Romans described themselves as Roman and felt being influenced by the Greek.


 * Before the 15th century, the westerners called themselves christian and all the christians belonged to their realm. The christians wanted to convert all humans to chrisitianity and wanted unity with other christians. The split between the eastern christians and western christians was seen as a loss.


 * From the 15th century untill the 18th, the term civilization was introduced and Europe was the most civilized region of the world according to the contemporaries.


 * I don't know much about the later centuries, what terminology concerns. It could be noted in this article when the term western was introduced to describe 'our' culture. Europeans settled in other continents and were called transplanted Europeans.


 * Communism is a part of western culture to my opinion. Karl Marx was a German and he wrote his books in London. Communists are extreme advocates of western style secular modernization. Their ideals were based on the French revolution and the terror regime of Robespierre. Equality among all humans was popular in the 18th century, without a connection to religion.


 * The whole world has been influenced dramatically by the western culture. Chinese and African people wear t-shirts and jeans. Every country has a western style government. Western inventions are everywhere. India and many African countries have a western language as official language.


 * There is a strong bias in this article, which belongs to the concept of the western culture. Looking at the map, then i come to these conclusions: Including Japan means that all rich countries are western. Excluding Japan means that all white, (former) christian countries are western.--Daanschr 09:32, 26 May 2006 (UTC)