Talk:Western rosella

Okay then...
I'll do a map in the next few days and get the HANZAB material....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 18:55, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * The ec had me scratching my head, I forget you might be wanting some input as I am modelling and experimenting with article dev. A couple more things and I was going to ping you to wrest it away from my inflation and tweaking. I still haven't got access to HANZAB, but was going to view the WA handbook this week. If you are going to do a map, AFD provides a good guide to subspecies, and states there is a nice neat intersection of ranges:

A glance at map should allow a nice boundary to demarcate the tawdry inlanders. Most ignore parrotty subspecies, especially when the other rosellas are poorly defined at the species rank, but there is a lot of chatter about it with this bird in aviculture too. — cygnis insignis 19:26, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Interesting. Will have a read and opine later. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:03, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Geography is my weakest subject, and my attempts at putting distribution ranges into words in never fruitful. Luckily, I just found a map that uses Johnstone and Storr (WA Handbook) to illuminate matters at this doc [with the caution that that ugly url crashed one browser twice] . These authors are often at odds with Eastern states authorities, not wrong but reactionary. BTW: I never knew how hard to push the fact that WA authorities continued to cite Platycercus (Purpureicephalus) spurius for djayop, but it seems many guides and handlists followed their reticence in accepting the split from a genus that remains contentious. PPS. Are you not interested in the exhausting text at the red-eared fire-tailed finch? I thought of soliciting a copyedit from one keen eyed editor at your recent parrot FA, or should I put it through the mill and see what oddness is pointed out? Regards, cygnis insignis 15:13, 30 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I want to get the HANZAB text of both. No point in getting into heavy copyediting until facts are totally sorted (though I do sometimes anyway). I had a trainwreck of a day yesterday so couldn't get to library. Will try on Friday (tomorrow). Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:12, 31 October 2018 (UTC)
 * As an update - been to library now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:56, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you both, no urgency, and cheers for getting this opened. Cas, there is a backlog at GA and I got the ball rolling for your FA run (down the wrong alley). Apologies too for failing to remember to watch the redlink GA subpage or doing a search for recent scholarship to finalise completion. The current state is fairly bareboned, when I find my glasses I will get this better shape. cygnis insignis 08:15, 4 November 2018 (UTC)


 * The GAN was wrongly placed under Culture, sociology and psychology, so I fixed it. But while I'm here, I note the gallery in the article, which are discouraged; images should be distributed in relevant sections of an article. And looking at Commons, the current infobox image doesn't seem to be the best one available. There are also some nice free photos on Flickr: FunkMonk (talk) 20:36, 3 November 2018 (UTC)


 * I'm still finding way to improve this article, and the reviewer is helping prompt those, but am also aware there is HANZAB coming and rewrites and merging are likely after that. I'll do what I can to get matters in order, or find out how to get maps, images and other sources (Forshaw, HANZAB, etc.). However, would you prefer that I put the review on hold, the reviewer and I have the idea that this has no urgency and I prefer you do your thing with pleasure and at your leisure. And, ping to keep you in the loop, cheers, cygnis insignis 07:40, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

feather by feather
This is a feather by feather description I started, and I am toying with a table of measurements. I will develop this idea in another article, and leave this here while reviews and things are underway. cygnis insignis 04:29, 13 November 2018 (UTC)


 * That sounds like HANZAB a bit. was going to get stuck into that today but needed a slab of undisturbed time....which didn't happen. Be bold and have a go at the description then. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 05:05, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Cross ref from HANZAB of weight range xanthogenys m. adult, Johnstone says to 94g. Now moved to main. cygnis insignis 14:10, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Umm, there is alot of detail and some repetition in the description section now. Shall I try and amalgamate the description and subspecies subsections? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:17, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for a reply. Edits are welcome mate, as are suggestions for improvement, of course, the aim being this become a better or best article on the species. My preference is to have a succinct paragraph on the species and subspecies, then lead out to the feather by feather for those who are interested; my reading of every short description I can find may assist me to accomplish that. I think I'm waiting on any contrary or supplemental info from HANZAB before honing the prose. To hurriedly explain the structure, a diagnostic, sentence in the lede will expand to a para at descrip then the detailed description of the plumage. Clear as mud in the telling, shall we see what I can do after HANZAB? cygnis insignis 10:40, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The new section also strikes me as extremely detailed compared to other bird articles. The article also seems to be in a constant state of expansion, so I wonder if I should wait a bit before reviewing further until it is more stable, since the text is changing so rapidly. FunkMonk (talk) 11:26, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * That sounds prudent. I have been far busier IRL than I expected, and have been suffering a cold/flu last few days which has sapped my energy. Plus there is more to check. This article could take a while. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:34, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Honestly not bothered. Please give an indication [] if you intend to bring HANZAB into the mix, alternately you can forward me a copy along with that Serventy article. My red-cap mates dropped by today, father and son being shown what is what, I'm inspired to see if there is anything to add to the spurious feature. Thanks for assistance so far, sincerely, cygnis insignis 11:41, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Likewise,, I had the notion you were attending to other things. If some protocol is needed, then apply that without concern to my wishes on outcomes here. I will be getting peer input from outside as well, especially on prose issues, and that is generally a good thing for our document too. Happy editinig, cygnis insignis 11:48, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well, let me know which sections are stable when the time comes, then I'll review those first. FunkMonk (talk) 11:52, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Cas will have an opinion, unless he is asleep ;) My opinion is everything except description is stable, when you wan to have look, and know that I don't envy your task … cygnis insignis 12:06, 26 November 2018 (UTC)
 * This article is huge now. There is no real protocol. I'm in two minds as the size of this means it is a long process and staring at it too much too quickly diminishes one's ability to address prose and flow issues. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:58, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * One solution is to pick an earlier revision or slice away material, then run it through here to FA, as with red-cap where you said that "is nearly everything" and I found something else to do. I prefer not to make those determinations, and wouldn't know how I would start, if someone else is able to then I do not understand their hesitation. My preferred solution, again, if I was seeking promotion for this article, is that material from the two other standard texts be incorporated, and that due weight of included material is established by comparison. If that is not possible, sending me a copy of HANZAB at least, then please tell me stop nagging for copies of material you are using, and that Serventy article on King Parrot, I'm happy to do the same, supply copies of hard print I access and cite. I am comfortable refining the prose with that material at hand, and that would reduce greatly length and tediousness I believe. What I have done here, after you arrived at the talk, was add what I could find, cloth for your scissors and stitches, and refinements were better left until you had applied your changes. If that was badly met then I will consider what I can do about that. If you prefer I suggest facts on the talk again at this stage of development, I have previously read inclusion as acceptance and silence as 'not an appropriate detail' and thought no more about it. I will watch the community's further development of the article with interest, respond to any confusion I create and double check unavailable sources, and incorporate those improvements into my own contributions. "So, umm, well, err, right then" … will I now look at other articles that need even a little bit of expansion or refocus on this? Just so I know Cas, that would also be huge. cygnis insignis 06:52, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I will email you HANZAB a bit later tonight. Just cooking dinner. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 07:50, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Ok, have sent email (hope you are still using same address as 2 years ago!) - let me know if works. Essentially with the last add I can see that our views on the comprehensiveness of the article are diverging - it doesn't mean that one of us is definitely correct, but it does mean that I suspect one of the two of us will be frustrated. Don't take any wiki-silences or pauses as sulking, I have been busy and and honestly have no ill-will. So digest the HANZAB and play around with it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:50, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Another solution, not aired, is a split to subspecies. The sum of content would be longer, and a little repetitive, but each article would be shorter. Not a preference for me especially, just a thought. cygnis insignis 13:53, 27 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Not keen on that idea either. Just have a play with it. Digest HANZAB and see...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:59, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Subspecies
The description of P. icterotis icterotis, the nominate subspecies, was separated in studies reproduced in the Handbook of Western Australian birds (vol. 1, 1998). The measurements of the sample are a length of 249–297 millimetres (mm) and a mean weight of 66 g (range 57–73 g) for males and 60 g (55–64 g) for females. The male adults are red to orangey red at the nape and crown, and at the frons. The feathers are slightly tipped with black. Lores of the male are a more subdued red, and the brighter cheeks are yellow. A white, blue or red tip appears at the feathers around the chin to the lower mandible. Feathers at the hindneck are greyish to black, the tip of which may be green, orange or yellowish green. This tipping, with orange or red, continues at the scapular and upper back at a blackish coloured feathers with green margins. The colour of the lower part of the back and rump is olive or green. The coverts at the outer median and upper wing are predominantly violet blue. The inner median coverts are black with dark green at the tips of longer feathers. The coverts at the primary feathers are also violet and black at the inner web, those at the secondary flight feathers are violet to dark green at the base. The outer primaries are blackish with violet blue at the lower half of the outer web at all but the outermost feather. The inner primaries are highlighted in violet with a blackish colour at the inner web and tipped black of the outer webs, the secondaries repeat this pattern with dark green replacing the violet blue. The dark green appears at the margins of greyish black tertiaries. The two central tail feathers are black tipped, with dark blue at the outer web becoming dark green toward the base. A black margin broadly outlines the dark green base and inner web, grading to violet blue at the outer web, in the next pair of central tail feathers, the tip of which is a scruffy white. The remaining tail feathers have a white tip, pale to darker blue toward the base of the outer web and blackish at the inner. The red coverts covering the thighs, belly, breast, and throat may yellow at the margins or tips. The flanks are patterned with yellow and grey over a more subdued green. Darker grey axillaries are usually tipped green or blue. The coverts beneath the wing are also dark grey, excepting those at the lesser underwing which are subdued violet. The stripe effect at the underwing, more apparent in the females and juveniles is reduced to irregular white marks. The colour beneath the tail is blackish, excepting the distal pale blue and white tips at the outer tail feathers. The bill is white to greyish, the iris is brown, and legs are grey.

The females of this subspecies are overall more subdued in colour than the male, which they otherwise resemble. A duller red appears at the crown and frons, and feathers at the nape and rear of the neck are grey or blackish, these are tipped with colours, someimes mixed, of yellowish or olive green, green and an orangey red. The underparts, at breast and belly, are tinted pale or yellowish green on otherwise red feathers, a scheme that is inverted in early adulthood of females. Feathers at the upper back are dark greyish and broadly margined with green, occasionally these are tipped with orange. The coverts of the wing at the outer median are bluish green, more green along the wing. The central tail feathers are duller than the male, a basal dark green becoming blue. A white stripe pattern appears from notch marks close to the base of secondaries and inner primaries, occurring at the inner web of each. The colour of females is said to resemble males as individuals mature. The immature and juveniles specimens of P. icterotis icterotis are also similar to females, most notably distinguished by the absence of red at the head but for a dull band across the frons. The nape and crown are predominantly olive green with orangey tipping and red feathers at the crown emerging during the immature phase. A duller yellow appears at the cheek. Feathers at the upper part of the back are dark greyish, with wide margins of the olive green colouring. The coverts at the wing are usually green at the lesser, median and inner greater regions, a bluish colour appearing at the bend and the green at outer secondary coverts is bluish. Red marks occur at green or greenish yellow underparts, somewhat at the breast and more so on the belly, A white to creamy coloured stripe is hidden at the upperwing, a shorter band of similar colour appears at the lower wing, basally at feathers near the body, then continuing as notches at the inner web of secondaries and inner primaries. The under parts of the wing are otherwise dark grey.

The sampling of subspecies P. icterotis xanthogenys of the interior was also detailed. The measurements a length of 248–295 mm and a mean weight for males of 65 g (range 57–94 g) and 63 g (55–67 g) for females. Males of the subspecies have paler yellow cheeks than those of the coastal group. Feathers at the scapulars and upper back to hindneck are black at the margins, with orange and red, longer ones may be variously marginated grey to buff and tipped orange or red. The lower back has margins of a green ranging from olive to yellow and may be red from the tip, they are otherwise mostly black. Coverts over the inner median feathers of the upperwing are mostly black with blue tips, outer greater coverts are black at the base with a violet blue toward the tip, those the inner upper part of the wing are also black tipped blue or buff to grey marked with orange. The wing feathers are overall black and violet blue, with little or no green, the inner web and tip of the secondary feathers is black and violet blue at the outer part, the buff or greyish tertiaries often black at the margins. The central pair of tail feathers are shades of blue, violet at the outer and greenish at the inners webs, the next feathers of the tail have broad margin of black of the inner web, and grading to a darker violet at the outer from the otherwise greenish blue coloration toward the base.

Female P. icterotis xanthogenys are duller than their coastal counterparts, the feathers at the back are mottled at the margin with a duller olive green, grey, and less orange and red. The stripe effect at the underwing is present. The juvenile and immature phase is similar to the appearance of the female, although duller, cheeks are a grey-white, nape and crown predominantly grey, and feathers at the back margined with dull tones of blue-grey or green-yellow and a blue-green colour, and are otherwise mostly blackish.

Questions
, I was just having a look at the article and I have some questions. I have not read more than the first paragraph and was confused about a few things:
 * Is there are a reason that western is not capitalized in the bold name?
 * In the next couple of sentences I was confused because the first describes the bird and the second mentions that juveniles lack the characteristic patterning, but there is no mention of this patterning in the description of the adult. Also, the description of the adult doesn't mention the green and blue of the wings, tail, and maybe rump (haven't read that far). PopularOutcasttalk2me! 23:25, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you. No reason. I don't have a strong preference and haven't checked the MOS on capitals for compass points, perhaps I should.
 * I will have another look, but it is distilled from key characteristics and diagnoses the species from other 'rosellas' and similar parrots in SW Australia and perhaps that should be emphasised. (SW being south-west, which I just capitalised, hmm) cygnis insignis 23:50, 14 January 2019 (UTC)
 * Capitals are different on Wikipedia. There is MOS:COMPASS which says we should capitalize compass points when they form part of a proper name. I think Western rosella is a proper name. However I know there has been much discussion about capitalization of bird names and the conclusion was that they should not be capitalized. So I dunno. I guess that's why I was asking. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 01:03, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * I can only guess at how vernacular is supposed to be made consistent, lower case for anything not people, their property, or important fictional creations? cygnis insignis 01:37, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * , well, I guess if it's been not capitalized the entire time then it's probably right. PopularOutcasttalk2me! 01:55, 15 January 2019 (UTC)


 * I also have a question for something I didn't notice during the GAN; why are the captions for the infobox images that identify the sexes commented out? It would seem to be pretty significant. FunkMonk (talk) 07:21, 15 January 2019 (UTC)
 * TY,, forgot to ask someone to verify that is a female, which I am not confident about doing. I can confirm it is a Western Rosella, and is not an adult male, and I consider that to be a great advance in my ability to provide a diagnosis (and therefore give it a 50/50 chance of being correct) cygnis insignis 09:50, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

ready now
, well, here it is mate. This took me some time, but with some attention from those above (epecially ) and the guild I am able to deliver what I said I would, that is, I think this is ready for FA if you are inclined to take it over. I'll stay out of the review, but ping me if I created any puzzles. cygnis insignis 05:46, 9 February 2019 (UTC)