Talk:Westerplatte

Old stuff (section title created 5/3/12)
I suggest splitting this article into Westerplatte (about the place) and Battle of Westerplatte. Sounds good? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:08, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 01:13, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)
 * So..? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 02:09, Dec 6, 2004 (UTC)
 * Unlike Modlin, I am not sure *how* it would be best split. I know it should be split somehow...but that's all. Feel free to do it if you have a better vision now. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 14:24, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I'd suggest moving info from 'Battle of Westerplatte' section to the new Battle of Westerplatte article (with appopriate refs/boxes etc.), leaving the rest here and expanding on what is currenty there (a musuem, perhaps)? Or, as basically all the contenct here is about the battle, we can simply rename this article to Battle of Westerplatte.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:42, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
 * OK on the first proposition. --HanzoHattori 06:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Link
The link to gis.gdansk.pl is broken and redirects to gdansk.pl 83.29.215.226 10:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Polish 1933 war proposal
, you seem confused both on the purpose of this article and on wiki policy.

Let me try to clarify some things for you. (1)The article is about Westerplatte. It is not some sort of shrine dedicated to the 1939 Battle of Westerplatte, it is simply an article about the Polish Military Transit Depot (WST), situated in the territory of the Free City of Danzig. As such it can contain a section on the 1939 battle, and any other intresting aspects related to it, whatever the year they refer to!

I write this referring to your revert where you refuse my request to take your perceived issues to the talk page: Qote your edit summary: (what's to take? 1933 events are completely irrelevant to the 1939 ones, unless you can cite a scholarly ref that draws a connection)

I hope we can agree that this article is not only about Westerplatte during the year 1939? Otherwise we must rename it. If you feel that the link to the Gleiwitz incident is too tenuous, then deleting that sentence would have sufficed nicely.

(2) I think the fact that Poland in 1933 offered France that they would manufacture a staged "incident" in Westerplatte in order to justify a war against Germany is quite Notable. If you disagree then take your arguments to the talk page. Simply reverting and refusing to discuss is very impolite. I attach the disputed text below:

Polish 1933 War Proposal
 * In 1933 Poland repeatedly tried to involve France in a "preventive war" against Germany. The Polish dictator offered to provide a faked "incident" in Westerplatte as casus belli to justify the invasion of Germany.

The above comment has only one purpose: to unfairly portray Poland as an aggressive country, the intention expressed especially by the use of double quotes around the "preventive war". The author somehow fails to notice that the "Polish dictator's" proposal was issued after Adolf Hitler became democratically elected leader of the great German nation and that its pure intention WAS to prevent the bloodshed that followed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.218.41.190 (talk) 18:51, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * The offer was rejected, and instead the Germans would create the Gleiwitz incident 6 year later to justify their invasion of Poland.

I hope you can now agree on including the text, or present a reasonable argument against the inclusion!--Stor stark7 Talk 18:16, 28 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The entire idea of the 1933 war proposal is still not universally accepted by the historians. But I guess while this borders on fringe trivia, this may stay in the article - the problem is we simply don't have the history section necessary for this trivia fact to look not completely out of context.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion
Hi. Somebody requested a third opinion. It looks like you two have come to consensus here, so I'm not sure what opining you need.

I agree that the fact is interesting and relevant. It would be better if you could link to some other article that discussed the topic further, and I'd be inclined to replace the phrase "Polish dictator" with the name of the person involved. As to not having a history section, perhaps you could create one, although since the bulk of the article seems to be military history, having it as a top-level section seemed like a reasonable start.

Piotrus, I'll add that removing somebody's good-faith edit with "totally irrelevant" does not demonstrate the consideration due your fellow editors. Reverting a second time after being asked to discuss it on the talk page is inappropriate, borders on edit warring, and contributed to Stor stark7 being needlessly riled up. In the future, I'd recommend trying to show a little more grace. William Pietri (talk) 03:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Anon using talk page as article POV fork again
Earlier History of Westerplatte in Prussia, Germany, Freie Stadt Danzig (which Radeszk and Jazurek keep removing, to keep you from knowing about)


 * There's nothing wrong with including earlier history of Westerplatte but please: 1) Use English. 2) Do so in a NPOV manner. 3) No OR "x was like y". 4) Use reliable secondary sources. Finally, you've been warned about trying to use article's talk pages as an "alternative" POV fork for the article itself. It's disruptive, don't do it.radek (talk) 19:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Baltic Sea Resort and Spa
Ostseebad Westerplatte was like Ostseebad Broesen and Ostseebad Heubude a Baltic Sea Resort, see photos/postcards The resort/health spa on the peninsula Westerplatte was established c1830 and had a beach, forrested park, Kurhaus and other oceanside baths and health spa facilities.

March 14, 1924 the League of Nations gave Poland authorization to use the Westerplatte for Polish ammunition and other war material equipment transport, under protest of the Danzig Senate and the Senate President Heinrich Sahm. It did not become Polish State territory, but was under control of Polish military, which in effect controlled Danzig's shipping lane from the harbor to the open Baltic Sea.

The Westerplatte then became famous for the Battle of Westerplatte, which was the first clash between Polish and German forces. It was followed by the Invasion of Poland and thus the first battle of the European theater of World War II. (71.137.194.46 (talk) 07:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC))


 * The second and third paras are already covered. The first one is new, can this be referenced? I am afraid an old photo is not good enough for a reference. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 19:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Since User:Radeksz and User:Jacurek repeatedly remove historical information and references, which do not suit their oneside POV, I had posted the historical information about Westerplatte here.

http://www.google.com book search (till 1914) shows a number of books about the Westerplatte Badeort or Ostseebad (meaning seaside or spa resort) along with other seaside spa resorts (Badeort, Seebad, Ostseebad)

A few samples from google book search results:

The earliest book mentioning Westerplatte resort was printed 1837 (not 1857 as typed in) named 'Preussische Provinzial Blaetter', Dr. Hagen, Koenigsberg. Shows Seebad Westerplatte page 285, mentions that that year was very warm and seaside resorts were heavily visited, unlike the year before.

A 1886 book 'Zeitschrift des Koeniglich Preussischen Statistischen Bureaus', E. Blenck, shows statitics of ownership of different places Page 247 shows Die Gemeinde (the community of Danzig) owns the Westerplatte resort.

A book : 'Archiv fuer Anthropologie Vol. 19' page 150 shows, that at the newly built hall at Kurhaus (spa resort building) Westerplatte a Festessen (banquet dinner) was held.

A number of physicians, therapeutical, other health related books are shown, which mention Westerplatte health spa.

About the photos/ postcards of Westerplatte (mentioned above), the site is from Poland. Here is another url, click on Old Postcards. This shows old photos of the different Badeorte/Ostseebaeder in the Danzig district and clarifies the locations. (71.137.194.46 (talk) 17:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC))


 * There's nothing wrong with including information that Westerplatte was a spa and a health resort before WWI. No one's objecting to that. But you're mixing up this with other POV edits and in addition you're writing a good chunk of the text in German and sourcing it with primary sources (a postcard) rather than reliable secondary sources.radek (talk) 18:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)


 * An 1880s book mentioning a resort there: (incidentally it should be probably wikisourced). Anyway, I restored some info about the pre-war resort. Feel free to expand it, preferably with sources more reliable than old postcards. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Languages
It would be interesting to know why the name Westerplatte never was Polonized after WWII — unlike all the other German names in the Danzig / Gdańsk area. Sca (talk) 23:42, 3 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm, that is sort of an interesting question. My guess would be that Westerplatte became so iconic fairly early on - probably still during the September campaign that it became a "myth" in some sense, and you don't mess with a myth - so it was kept. It would be interesting to see if there were any attempts at renaming it subsequently, though I'm not aware of any. On the other hand, honestly, even the Polish commies were in many cases ok with German sounding names, as long as these didn't carry some kinds of Nazi connotations so they might have just left this one alone. That whole naming thing was a lot more complicated than the Wikipedia naming disputes would lead one to believe.
 * If you got some interesting sources on the subject, my curiosity is quite peaked. Volunteer Marek 03:38, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you are quite right about the iconic status of the name. Sourced to : "Teren ten nosił także przed wojną nazwę niemiecką Westerplatte (wcześniej West Plaate). Po drugiej wojnie światowej zachowano nazwę niemiecką, gdyż miejsce i nazwa stały się symbolem walki o wolność. Nazwa ta pochodzi od przymiotnika ester zachodni' i rzeczownika Platte 'płyta', przenośnie 'wyspa'." --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 04:34, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Westerplatte is indeed an extraordinary exception as the Polish Commission for the Determination of Place Names renamed 32.138 German toponyms until 1950. The linguistic cleansing of German sounding names (regardless off any "Nazi connotation") was, of course, one of the main aims of the Commission. Often even existing Polish names were ignored if these names were too similar to the German name (e.g. Rastenburg - Rastembork - Ketrzyn; Lötzen - Lec - Gizycko). Westerplatte however was known and used in Poland already in the 1920s and became a national symbol in WWII thus a renaming wasn't appropriate. HerkusMonte (talk) 07:10, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * "linguistic cleansing"? What in the world is that supposed to be? I guess it's supposed to imply something "almost" as bad as "ethnic cleansing". With the obvious difference that one concept involves the murder of six million people while the other involves the changing of some place names. Seriously? That's a pretty wacky rhetoric and usage of euphemisms right there. Sure, the fact that Polish authorities changed some previously German names to more Polish sounding ones is a "cleansing" just as bad as the physical extermination of Poles and Jews by the Nazis. I believe this kind of argument goes under the rubric of "false moral equivalence". Perspective. Volunteer Marek 03:21, 7 May 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure "iconic" is exactly the right concept, but certainly it had become a historic place known internationally by the German name Westerplatte. Perhaps those in charge of Polonizing place names wanted the world to remember just where Hitler started WWII. BTW, "Westerplatte" is among the battles listed on tablets at the Tomb of the Unknown Polish Soldier in Warsaw.


 * With regard to Rastenburg / Rastembork / Kętrzyn, I suspect that the naming commission may have wanted to wipe off the map the name of the place where Hitler had his wartime HQ, the Wolfsschanze. Although the Wolfsschanze actually was a few km to the east of the town, it was generally referred to as "Rastenburg" by the Germans. So the Polish authorities decided to honor a local hero of Polish memory who had in fact attended gymnasium in Rastenburg. This is just speculation on my part, though. They may simply have wanted to eliminate the name, which in the Polonized version still showed its German origin (as does, for example, Frombork). Sca (talk) 15:13, 4 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The ''Słownik..." I cited earlier has an entry for Kętrzyn, but does not explain why the name was changed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 16:06, 4 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Nie mówię po polsku. Sca (talk) 13:06, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above Polish was only in reference to Westerplatte, not Ketrzyn. It says: "Also before the war, the area carried the German name Westerplatte (earlier West Plaate). After world war two the German name was kept, since the place and the name had become symbols of the fight for freedom. The name comes from the adjective wester "western" and the noun Platte or "plate", meaning "island"" Volunteer Marek 14:43, 6 May 2012 (UTC)


 * OK. However, If you check it, I believe you'll find that "Platte" is a Low German (Plattdeutsch) word meaning, coincidentally, a low, flat area. It would be rather a stretch to say it means "island" (Insel in High German).


 * In German, the word Platt is sometimes used to refer to a Low German accent or dialect. Sca (talk) 20:31, 9 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Heh, this is actually my fault because I skipped a key word in my translation - what it actually says is "i rzeczownika Platte 'płyta', przenośnie 'wyspa'". I skipped the word "przenośnie", which means "figuratively". And since "platte" does mean "plate", figuratively, but not exactly in this context "platte" seems to mean "flat plate", i.e. a "flat island". Volunteer Marek 02:09, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

B-class review
This article is currently at start/C class, but could be improved to B-class if it had more (inline) citations. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; talk to me 22:06, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

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